Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yet she can't anticipate Batman:
Who's making a stealthy attack while Wonder Woman is fighting the whole Justice League...
Context isn't your strong suit my friend...
Because lemme guess, because Deathstroke did it to Flash, WW (who is faster) can do the same?
It's not a question of speed, it's a question of timing.
Yes, Wonder Woman can do the same. She already proven that she can anticipate Flash movements multiple times and her gear could allow her to make a quick work of Wankly West.
Same reasoning. Batman could do it. Wally, who is faster, can do the same 🙂
English please.
Wait, so you're now changing your stance from 'he has no feats to support it' to 'yeah he does, but not most of the time'.Soon, will it be 'not EVERY time'??
I'm not chaging anything.
Flash, whoever he is, is constantly tagged by slower opponents in all comics and even incapacitated.
I see no reasons to accept a fan-fictive and untouchable version of Flash, and this I am assuming that Flash is doing his best against those characters everytime he fight them.
I told you what the BZ was.
You didn't but if you want to BZ with Flash I will pick the character I want for the BZ. 🙂
You post the scans of slower, weaker opponents tagging Flash, and argue its NOT PIS, and I argue why it's PIS.
PIS doesn't exist in comics.
I have no reason to stick with your fallacious reasoning when Flash, going all out, get beaten to death by Gorilla Grodd while he is actively trying to beat him too.
That's fighting at his best .
Edit: as for the 'Oh, Flash only does XYZ most of the time:
English please.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Who's making a stealthy attack while Wonder Woman is fighting the whole Justice League...Context isn't your strong suit my friend...
Lol knowledge isn't yours.
That's the page immediately preceding it. It was 1 on 1. She knew he was there. No stealth. He simply managed to punch her. Nice how he can dodge her kicks though 🙂
It's not a question of speed, it's a question of timing.
English please.
I'm not chaging anything.
You didn't
you post the scans where you think him being tagged by weaker/slower/less powerful opponents ISN'T PIS.I say why they are PIS.
Then whosoever we get to judge, then says if they are PIS or not.
CIS would be thrown out the window, because in this thread, Wally knows who Diana is. He knows she's scary powerful, and skilled, and dangerous, so wouldn't be holding back.
PIS doesn't exist in comics.
I have no reason to stick with your fallacious reasoning when Flash, going all out, get beaten to death by Gorilla Grodd while he is actively trying to beat him too.
English please.
Forum rule explicitly states even though Flash doesn't do certain tactics in the majority of his comics, his tactics are still viable on the battle threads 🙂
No wonder you can't debate properly, when you don't know the rules.....
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Lol knowledge isn't yours.
That's the page immediately preceding it. It was 1 on 1. She knew he was there. No stealth. He simply managed to punch her. Nice how he can dodge her kicks though 🙂
I've never said he cannot dodge her attacks.
Strawman counter: 1
On the other hand I've said that she can anticipate Flash's movements which she did in that fight while not trying to kill her teamates.
'I pick my moments, Diana'. 🙂 It is indeed timing.
"ok"
Sigh. If Batman is able to outspeed Diana, Wally, who is faster, can do the same. Just like DS was able to make Flash impale himself (and is NOT PIS), So too can Wally clap his hands over WW's ears.
He isn't "outspeeding" her. Batman is very skilled and as every powerhouses in Marvel and DC have similar combat speed to the street levelers that's mostly a contest of skills here.
Wonder Woman beat Batman in other occasions...
By the way, Batman think that Superman is the only one in the League whom can put her down if she goes crazy...
Yeah unfortunately for him, Wally never use that tactic in combat.
Wally isn't even close to Batman and Wonder Woman in combat skills.
I'm glad that you admit that Wonder Woman can make Wally impale himself on her sword and that's enough to give her a win.
Your initial post was 'he has no feats of fighting as quickly as he runs'. I post a feat. Then you change your tune to 'he doesn't do this the majority of time'. That's changing. Or are you still asserting he has NO feats?
Actually not, I've said that Wally is constantly tagged by slower and far less skilled opponents than Wonder Woman.
Strawman count: 2
Good thing this is a battle forum, not a comic.
Good thing it doesn't change the character portrayal.
My point stands, your doesn't.
Grodd who has KOd Kalibak, been smashed from state to state and is still breathing? He's not just a normal gorilla in durability and strength, you know.
He is still a brick and doesn't have Diana's skills and gear.
Forum rule explicitly states even though Flash doesn't do certain tactics in the majority of his comics, his tactics are still viable on the battle threads 🙂
And his limits remains, still fighting at his best.
That's what you don't understand.
No wonder you can't debate properly, when you don't know the rules.....
I know the rules.
You seems to forget that using strawmen is forbidden by the rules.
I said she didn't anticipate Batman.
You said it was due to her being distracted, and him using stealth.
I've shown you to be wrong.
Where's her anticipation with Batman? She can sense the air pressure when Flash attacks, but not when Batman attacks? Do his fists not displace air as they move?
IOW, the fight was PIS.
Do you not remember this?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except we have WW herself saying Wally does everything as quickly as he runs.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
Yeah and by feats he doesn't.
And how do you square the circle? That he has two speeds, one for fighting and one for travelling?
No reply to the BZ challenge then?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I said she didn't anticipate Batman.You said it was due to her being distracted, and him using stealth.
I've shown you to be wrong.
Fine.
This add nothing to your arguments for Flash either ways.
Where's her anticipation with Batman? She can sense the air pressure when Flash attacks, but not when Batman attacks? Do his fists not displace air as they move?
A) They were speaking so she was distracted.
B) She is blindfolded the whole fight.
C) It doesn't matter if she didn't block Batman attack because she was able to sense Flash.
D) Your debating tactics are lame.
IOW, the fight was PIS.
It wasn't.
Do you not remember this?And how do you square the circle? That he has two speeds, one for fighting and one for travelling?
Fighting in hand to hand =/= Running a distance.
There is no discussion to have about a fact.
No reply to the BZ challenge then?
I've already replied but we both knows that you have a selective vision that suits perfectly your selective memory.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
And she can anticipate his trajectories via the movements of the air pressure and she can makes him impale himself on her atom splitting sword this followed with a proper beheading.Flash doesn't do much in combat but charging his opponents most of the time.
His fight against Tangent Superman shows that he isn't invincible contrary to what his fanboys believes.
By the way if you want a BZ I will not use Wonder Woman, I have another character in mind.
You skipped that a bit easily, don't you ?
Originally posted by RealityWarper
A) They were speaking so she was distracted.
B) She is blindfolded the whole fight.
C) It doesn't matter if she didn't block Batman attack because she was able to sense Flash.
D) Your debating tactics are lame.
It wasn't.
[/quote]
Fighting in hand to hand =/= Running a distance.
Hence my showing of him with Zoom, in a picosecond. My showing of him with Flashpoint WW.
[b]
I've already replied but we both knows that you have a selective vision that suits perfectly your selective memory.
You skipped that a bit easily, don't you ?
Back on ignore you go. You're really not worth the time nor effort.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Blue is not trying to rationalize PIS, rather he's trying to identify if a thing IS Plot Induced Stupidity, what makes it so, and if there are any connections or any concepts relevant and worthy of exploring.
all that is well and good except pis is clearly defined. if flash loses this it is because of cis. THAT can be argued. but when we assume flash at full capacity, this is a non fight. literally, she has no chance. she IS a statue to a full capacity, attosecond-level flash. you can claim he may hold back against her because, well, he rarely uses his full powers against anyone. but that has everything to do with flash, and literally nothing to do with wonder woman, and all the scans in the world that show her doing...whatever, won't change anything. nothing can change the fact that he could have years, decades, potentially centuries to react to whatever she does IF we assume full capacity. only cis saves her. pis is eliminated by virtue of it being a forum fight. /shrug
batman is a tough character to deal with ina fourm setting. he's one of those guys where you ask yourslef if it happens enough times, can it really be called pis? he can sneak up on superman. makes no sense. we assume he has tech that lets him do it. he deals with characters he has...no right dealing with. but he does so consistently. so...is it pis?
to answer your question--no. not even close. he's proven himself too capable too many times for him to take THAT kind of role. the key to any fiction is a believable suspension of disbelief. batman, imo, has earned the suspension of disbelief that is required to take his feats at face value, as opposed to denigrating them, shoving them into the category of pis. /shrug
and ultimately, i think a willingness to suspend disbelief is what determines what each person does and doesn't see as pis (or maybe cis).
Originally posted by DarkSaint85So all Flash needs to do is talk to her, and she'll be unable to fight??
You are constantly using logical fallacies as a poor trial to form a coherent argument. 🙁
Actually, she was completely blind. But I thought you said she could sense air pressure changes etc? Why couldn't she do the same with Batman?
Do I even need to answer that question ?
Batman was already in contact.
Flash like of fighting skills makes him constantly charge his opponent.
That means that Flash main way of fighting makes him a shitty fighter by default. Too bad. 🙁
So...PIS.
No.
Invoking PIS is a weak excuse for someone whom can't accept to see a character losing.
OK. Batman can catch WW by surprise, something that no one else can. OK!
I've never claimed that WW can't be surprised.
Strawman count: 3
Hence my showing of him with Zoom, in a picosecond. My showing of him with Flashpoint WW.
Yeah. They raced each others so what ?
It doesn't makes Wally's other showings invalid.
Lol yup, by moving the goalposts. Then claiming I didn't name the challenge. When I did. Then claim I have the selective memory, lol.
Sure. I'm the one moving the goalposts to Batman hitting WW...
Oh wait ! That's you ! XD
I didn't skip it. I issued a challenge, and named what the challenge was. You....then turn around and start talking about other characters, lol.
You asked me for a BZ.
I accepted the challenge.
Now go hide behind a rock if you are too scared to face me. XD
Back on ignore you go. You're really not worth the time nor effort.
I knew it. XD
Originally posted by leonidas
batman is a tough character to deal with ina fourm setting. he's one of those guys where you ask yourslef if it happens enough times, can it really be called pis? he can sneak up on superman. makes no sense. we assume he has tech that lets him do it. he deals with characters he has...no right dealing with. but he does so consistently. so...is it pis?to answer your question--no. not even close. he's proven himself too capable too many times for him to take THAT kind of role. the key to any fiction is a believable suspension of disbelief. batman, imo, has earned the suspension of disbelief that is required to take his feats at face value, as opposed to denigrating them, shoving them into the category of pis. /shrug
and ultimately, i think a willingness to suspend disbelief is what determines what each person does and doesn't see as pis (or maybe cis).
He was keeping up with a blood hound that was too fast for Flash to hit. When I say keep up, I mean him hitting the hound without getting touched and again, Flash and the rest of the JLA was having issues tagging it. He should not be used as something to downplay a character which is what's happening here.
Originally posted by carver9
He was keeping up with a blood hound that was too fast for Flash to hit. When I say keep up, I mean him hitting the hound without getting touched and again, Flash and the rest of the JLA was having issues tagging it. He should not be used as something to downplay a character which is what's happening here.
Flash speed is overwanked but he isn't that fast in hand to hand situation.
Originally posted by carver9
He was keeping up with a blood hound that was too fast for Flash to hit. When I say keep up, I mean him hitting the hound without getting touched and again, Flash and the rest of the JLA was having issues tagging it. He should not be used as something to downplay a character which is what's happening here.
Except, if you read what bluewater has been saying, and posting, he's been using Deathstroke as a way to downplay Wally. My point was, if DS tagging Flash is fair game, why isn't Batman allowed?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except, if you read what bluewater has been saying, and posting, he's been using Deathstroke as a way to downplay Wally. My point was, if DS tagging Flash is fair game, why isn't Batman allowed?
mmm
Why are you wasting time arguing what you DON'T believe in?
There's a much better discussion to be had concerning what you do, and a good place to begin is with what you promised to deliver yesterday (scans of Flash overcoming Sonic Booms by Zoom).
You already gave your true thoughts on the matter, after all:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's pretty standard for Bats...same as with Deathstroke (as seen in this thread) and Cap.IOW, I wouldn't rely too much on showings involving these characters for their opponents,but I would rely on the showings for them.
So in a Batman thread,I'd use his showings against WW, or Superman.
But in a WW thread, I'd hesitate to use them in a serious manner against WW. Of course, for humour I might, but it won't be serious.
Same with DS. I wouldn't use his showings against WW to say how weak WW was - unless of course, he was being used as a yardstick for his opponents.
Leo is arguing my point without knowing it ( or perhaps he does?) in different terms. And perhaps it's time I started using the language of the forum to match the legalese you seem to like employing. If something is habitual behavior and/or a character trait, and revealed as such through literally years and years of stories, then such cannot properly be termed PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity).
-------------------
Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS ...
refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively.
Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it ...
Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.
Trouble is,like I've said,I use the Batman showings.... because Deathstroke has been used.
As can be seen with your very first post in here.
I note that in your attempts to use legalese, you committed the cardinal sin of cropping details out when facing someone who is familiar with the crop.
Namely:
Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb.
Unfortunately, I've already shown that Flash is able to, and more importantly,HAS,strategised in nanoseconds. Out thought the fastest supercomputer from the future. Had faith placed in him by the JLAs master strategist,Batman.
So no,CIS is thrown out the window when the Full Capacity rule is used. Much as you have shown that despite WWs speed and skill and strength, often Superman is used instead of her so as to let him shine, so too does Wally forget his powers to allow others to shine.
Which we don't have here.
The alternative is that Wally is genuinely that dumb. Which....as I've shown on separate occasions, isn't so.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I note that in your attempts to use legalese, you committed the cardinal sin of cropping details out when facing someone who is familiar with the crop.
Think as many times as I've seen you quote from that section I DIDN'T think you'd note that?
Far as Wally goes with Slade, the two, from my understanding, have a long history. Dating from when Wally was in the Teen Titans. One where Slade would routinely push the emotional buttons of every member of that group, as he probably does even now. In that impalement scene, the JLA are no less emotionally wrought than their younger yesteryear counterparts. Slade is protecting a felon (Dr.Light) who they believe raped and murdered a friend of theirs (Sue Dibny). Cold logic goes out the window under those conditions.
People revert to habitual behavior. And for Flash that means rushing Slade as he was wont to do in the past.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85you have shown that despite WWs speed and skill and strength, often Superman is used instead of her so as to let him shine
Gratifying to see someone honest enough to admit that.
Actually, now that you've mentioned Superman, it's worth pointing out playing possum is in Wonder Woman's repertoire. She once staged a mock battle with the Man of Steel to reveal Darkseid, for instance, allowing herself to be essentially a stealth "wrecking ball", till they were gazing on Uxas himself.
I'm recalling that, or at least an allusion to it, for another reason, and that is that, years before Wondy formally prayed for and received the Godwave, it was cited and hinted to be the creative force behind superheroes and their empowering energy fields, etcetera:
Source: Wonder Woman #102, Volume 2
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Too bad I didn't remember that the invisible jet was actually a thing during Wonder Woman's post-Crisis run during the era of Devastation, which you unknowingly alluded to just now. Invisible AND it responds to mental commands?As much as post-Crisis Flash had a habit of running into things?
I intended to "ref info" another page or few as I did back on page 10.
As I'm scouring this thread from the beginning, I'm encountering loose ends that I didn't explain to my satisfaction earlier.
This comment about the jet, for instance, was a lament about the tournament.
A few images beyond what was already posted should make clear why that would have made such a great asset.
Not gonna bother with captions or descriptions.
Should be self-evident:
Source: Wonder Woman, early 140s issue, Volume 2.
Devastation arc.
