Originally posted by Freedon NaddThat's an...interesting way to entirely ignore the abundance of evidence at hand, lol.
But the dark side BM requires the user to break people's wills. And during that Battle on Endor - Palpatine was not focusing his attention on the fleets.
He was a Sith BM user but that doesn't mean he used it during the Endor Battle. All those sources state he knew Sith BM and that his dark will kept the empire whole.
The Empire was not the Endor Battle - you know.So, he may have used it(definitely) but not during the Endor Battle.
It was explicitly stated that Palpatine's death sent the entire Imperial fleet at Endor into a state of complete disarray as a DIRECT corollary. When Palpatine's presence/power/will(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line, the entire system began to crumble:
-RotJ
And several other sources corroborate the fact that Palpatine's presence/power/will alone was not only holding the Endor fleet together... But holding the entire damn Empire together as well:
-Dark Empire Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Dark Force Rising Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Moreover, per the above evidence we can infer that Thrawn's assertions about Palpatine using BM at Endor were irrefutably factual:
-Heir to the Empire
So yeeeeah...
Anywho, I think I've more than made my point here, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Good day. 🙂
Originally posted by Galan007
That's an...interesting way to entirely ignore the abundance of evidence at hand, lol.It was explicitly stated that Palpatine's death sent the entire Imperial fleet at Endor into a state of complete disarray as a DIRECT corollary. When Palpatine's presence/power/will(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line, the entire system began to crumble:
-RotJ
And several other sources corroborate the fact that Palpatine's presence/power/will alone was not only holding the Endor fleet together... But holding the entire damn Empire together as well:
-Dark Empire Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Dark Force Rising Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Moreover, per the above evidence we can infer that Thrawn's assertions about Palpatine using BM at Endor were irrefutably factual:
-Heir to the Empire
So yeeeeah...
Anywho, I think I've more than made my point here, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Good day. 🙂
But this is not at all what it says.
Some sources say that he was the 'will' that held the Empire from falling apart. Other sources state that he made use of the Battle Meditation when they were at war.
I am talking about the Battle at Endor.
There is no definitive statement that he was doing that. Why?
Because Palpatine's focus was drawn to Luke and Vader when they both came in his room.
I accept that he is a Battle Meditation user. I merely said he didn't use that ability during the Battle at Endor. That's all.
There is only one proof: and that's Thrawn's. Who was not present during the Battle at Endor. So he sought a perfect excuse to justify their defeat at the hands of the Rebels when Palpatine was defeated/killed.
And my last point is:
Are Palpatine's imperial forces so poorly-skilled that he has to BM'ing them?
I mean - that tells a lot about his empire if that's the case. 😂
However, this was only in regarding to Azronger's Sidious' Battle Meditation wank being used during ROTJ(Battle at Endor).
Originally posted by Galan007It's one thing to own him, but did you really have to destroy him Galan? 😆
That's an...interesting way to entirely ignore the abundance of evidence at hand, lol.It was explicitly stated that Palpatine's death sent the entire Imperial fleet at Endor into a state of complete disarray as a DIRECT corollary. When Palpatine's presence/power/will(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line, the entire system began to crumble:
-RotJ
And several other sources corroborate the fact that Palpatine's presence/power/will alone was not only holding the Endor fleet together... But holding the entire damn Empire together as well:
-Dark Empire Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-Dark Force Rising Sourcebook
____________________________________________
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Moreover, per the above evidence we can infer that Thrawn's assertions about Palpatine using BM at Endor were irrefutably factual:
-Heir to the Empire
So yeeeeah...
Anywho, I think I've more than made my point here, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Good day. 🙂
Well done sir. 😎
He one-shot nothing. For your knowledge, genius. Battle Meditation was not even a concept during the publication of the ROTJ novel. That was not at all the authorial intent.
Really - you want to tell me that Palpatine's empire is made up of inept imperial soldiers and high-ranking individuals who constantly need to be BM'd by Palpatine?
No. The sources merely state that Palpatine was a BM and seldomly he used that ability. But it was not during the Battle of Endor. Because his focus was 'focused' on Luke and Vader aboard the Death Star.
You fail to realize that the BM concept appeared in Heir to the Empire. And there the concept of BM was presented through Thrawn's suspecting of Palpatine using it at the Battle of Endor. That's all. That's why it was only a dialogue and not outrightly confirmed in HTE, because that was not the authorial intent. It made us of that scene to explain the BM concept because that scene's been edged on people's brains.
Have a good day.
Sourcebooks are filled, sometimes, with inconsistencies. If you really want to accept their validity - so be it.
But you should know - that these sourcebooks are merely interpretation of the events of the authors who write them in books.
If you really think that Palpatine BM'd his forces during the Battle on Endor.
Then, why the heck didn't they win the battle back then already?
We know that BM increases your army's efficiency and your enemy's inefficiency instantly.
If Palpatine really used it during the Battle of Endor - the Empire should have already won the war.
But do what you want, I don't care. It's up to you if you choose the events(books) over the interpretation of events(sourcebooks) or the other way around.
When you're constantly under the influence of something, you start to get dependent on it. Especially something affecting such a critical element as military cohesion. The loss of the Battle Meditation could even have triggered a sort of psychological domino effect where the soldiers panicked from the feeling of something being amiss and hindered themselves further. Regardless, the reliance of the Empire on the Emperor's Battle Meditation was a design choice of the Emperor himself.
We don't need speculation to tell us any of the facts that Galan displayed above, though. The Emperor's Battle Meditation is a strange target for a legitimacy attack since it's one of the most supported notions in the mythos. I guess for some that's not enough.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
It doesn't matter. But at least we know that Palpatine's empire is so incompetent that they need to be frequently BM'd by Palpatine. 😂At least the ancient Sith didn't have that problem with their empires.
Not really the Empire was still formidable even without the Emperor. If anything the loss and feelings they had were just temporary.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Sourcebooks are filled, sometimes, with inconsistencies. If you really want to accept their validity - so be it.But you should know - that these sourcebooks are merely interpretation of the events of the authors who write them in books.
If you really think that Palpatine BM'd his forces during the Battle on Endor.
Then, why the heck didn't they win the battle back then already?We know that BM increases your army's efficiency and your enemy's inefficiency instantly.
If Palpatine really used it during the Battle of Endor - the Empire should have already won the war.But do what you want, I don't care. It's up to you if you choose the events(books) over the interpretation of events(sourcebooks) or the other way around.
Spoilers:
Sourcebooks are - for most part - headcanon when it comes about describing events and/or characters which have already taken place in a certain book.
It's basically just an interpretation on the author's part. The writer isn't paid there to make sure if the 'logic' of 'feats' is applied. They are just paid to make sure that the history of said-so events and/or characters are extended further if there are no books published to depict said-so events and/or characters.
I thought Nai learned you well this lesson. 🙂
Apologize me - but I go with book events not with interpretations of the book events. If you hate/dislike that or me. There is no room for further debating.
Of course if the interpretations and the events line up perfectly - that's something else. But in this 'BM' case it clearly does not.
And given that Disney has now made everything(except movies) non-canon. It's really just pick-your-cherry thing.
If you still go with 'officialness' - have that in mind.
God Bless You.
✌🏻🙏🏻
Originally posted by Galan007
That's an...interesting way to entirely ignore the abundance of evidence at hand, lol.It was explicitly stated that Palpatine's death sent the entire Imperial fleet at Endor into a state of complete disarray as a DIRECT corollary. When Palpatine's presence/power/will(the proverbial 'glue' that held the fleet together) was no longer there to keep them on-task/in-line, the entire system began to crumble:
And several other sources corroborate the fact that Palpatine's presence/power/will alone was not only holding the Endor fleet together... But holding the entire damn Empire together as well:
____________________________________________
____________________________________________
____________________________________________
____________________________________________
Moreover, per the above evidence we can infer that Thrawn's assertions about Palpatine using BM at Endor were irrefutably factual:
So yeeeeah...
Anywho, I think I've more than made my point here, so this will be my last post on the subject.
Good day. 🙂
You forgot a few.
Thrawn differentiates between conventional Battle Meditation and what the Emperor was doing, indicating Palpatine was outright using mind domination. Pellaeon likewise adds that they were "enslaved" to the Emperor, indicating influence far beyond mere coordination:
C'baoth snorted. "So is this what you want me for, Grand Admiral Thrawn?" he asked scornfully. "To turn your ships into puppets for you?"
"Not at all, Master C'baoth," Thrawn told him, his voice perfectly calm again. "My analogy with combat borg implants was a carefully considered one. The Emperor's fatal error was in seeking to control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible. That, over the long run, is what did the damage. My wish is merely to have you enhance the coordination between ships and task forces - and then only at critical times and in carefully selected combat situations."
Heir to the Empire
The Last Command Sourcebook
It was also noted that the Emperor was affecting the ground forces too, since it was his death that allowed Han and Leia to disable the shield generator at Endor:
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook
Then there's just more supporting evidence:
The Emperor, it had long been rumored, had had the ability to use the Force to exercise direct control over his military forces.
The Last Command
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
It should also be noted that most of these sources aren't talking about just Endor. Return of the Jedi and the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook state the Emperor was the "cohesive force of the Empire" as a whole. The latter source also states the Emperor's will held "the Empire" together. Thrawn claimed that the Emperor sought to "control the entire Imperial Fleet personally, as completely and constantly as possible," and Gilad Pellaeon mused that he would have initially scoffed at the idea of "one man controlling or shaping the events of the galaxy through sheer force of will," but later rescinded his opinion in the belief that Thrawn was "quite accurate in his assessment." The Dark Empire Sourcebook finally added that there was no way "the Empire" could endure without its Emperor, and Palpatine in Return of the Jedi contemplated he "was" the Empire, for whatever that's worth.
For context, the Imperial Military consisted of "tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and a vast force of stormtroopers" which formed "the largest military force in galactic history" with all Old Republic era militaries "a mere fraction of the Empire's strength." It would thus also be even larger than the military of the Confederacy of Independent Systems, which in itself employed "quintillions" of battle droids, indicating that the "vast force of stormtroopers," which is separate from the "regular army soldiers," numbers in the quintillions.
Rebellion Era Campaign Guide
The Ultimate Visual Guide
Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections
So Palpatine was mindraping the largest military force in galactic history numbering in the quintillions presumably throughout his most of his reign starting from Revenge of the Sith, as it is noted he had designed the Empire to be reliant on his mental influence in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and had aspirations to be Emperor as early as Darth Plagueis. And given that he did this casually without any strain, this should be treated as a low showing for Palpatine. Also keep in mind he was doing this constantly without any breaks, so virtually every single feat he performs in between Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi is done within the context of dominating the entire Imperial Military simultaneously.
Originally posted by AzrongerYou should have just posted the BM excerpts and left it at that.
So Palpatine was mindraping the largest military force in galactic history numbering in the quintillions presumably throughout his most of his reign starting from Revenge of the Sith, as it is noted he had designed the Empire to be reliant on his mental influence in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, and had aspirations to be Emperor as early as Darth Plagueis. And given that he did this casually without any strain, this should be treated as a [b]low showing for Palpatine. Also keep in mind he was doing this constantly without any breaks, so virtually every single feat he performs in between Revenge of the Sith and Return of the Jedi is done within the context of dominating the entire Imperial Military simultaneously. [/B]
You've gotta learn to stop before you fully climax. 👆