Hela vs. MOS Superman

Originally posted by Bentley
Silent made an example of how it works in case you missed it. If Doomsday was hurt by a regular sword instead of a magical sword, then any random weapon backed with similar strenght would do the trick. If later it becomes established that the weapon was special, it retroactively becomes a better showing.

You can see how translating such a combination of retcons into simple speed comparisons doesn't follow since you're such a smart guy.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So since Thor's hammer has magical properties and it isn't made from Lowe's and smashes against Superman's head according to you its weakness exploitation. You're an idiot. Any opponent in combat should go after someone's weakness not their strength. You want to dismiss anyone capitalizing on their weakness and argue Batman should take Superman head on.

At this point I'm no longer sure we are discussing about the same thing.

My points:

- Superman has no magic weakness as of now (since no mention is made in movies)
- Superman will probably get magic weakness introduced into future plots not to outclass other members of the JL (if the DCU ever gets that far).

And by extension:

- If past Superman "bad" showings are explained away by introducing magic into the mixture, then the range of attack that can damage Kal becomes more exotic, effectively making him stronger than he is now (because he was hurt before without the need of magic)

Originally posted by Bentley
At this point I'm no longer sure we are discussing about the same thing.

My points:

- Superman has no magic weakness as of now (since no mention is made in movies)
- Superman will probably get magic weakness introduced into future plots not to outclass other members of the JL (if the DCU ever gets that far).

And by extension:

- If past Superman "bad" showings are explained away by introducing magic into the mixture, then the range of attack that can damage Kal becomes more exotic, effectively making him stronger than he is now (because he was hurt before without the need of magic)

He thought you were defending Superman, thus he went on the attack and stopped actually listening.

Originally posted by Bentley
At this point I'm no longer sure we are discussing about the same thing.

My points:

- Superman has no magic weakness as of now (since no mention is made in movies)
- Superman will probably get magic weakness introduced into future plots not to outclass other members of the JL (if the DCU ever gets that far).

And by extension:

- If past Superman "bad" showings are explained away by introducing magic into the mixture, then the range of attack that can damage Kal becomes more exotic, effectively making him stronger than he is now (because he was hurt before without the need of magic)

Only an idiot would say weakness exploitation or intelligent fighting somehow lessens the loss. The dceu has more films in the works and unless this movie outright tanks box office dollars wise don't expect them to stop.

Originally posted by Silent Master
He thought you were defending Superman, thus he went on the attack and stopped actually listening.

😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Your whole point of whether he was jobbing or not is hilariously explained as weakness exploitation. That's an inherent weakness of the character so it doesn't matter as it hurts him regardless. The tower that ko'd him from man of steel wasn't magical. 😂

Again, just reread my points, nothing about them ever talks about the tower nor going back to rewrite every bad showing there is. I was replying to Silent about the possibility of Doomsday being hurt by regular metal vs a magical sword aknowledging his logic was spot on.

I'm not sure if you are arguing that being hurt by a magical item is the same as being hurt by a regular one?

Originally posted by Bentley
Again, just reread my points, nothing about them ever talks about the tower nor going back to rewrite every bad showing there is. I was replying to Silent about the possibility of Doomsday being hurt by regular metal vs a magical sword aknowledging his logic was spot on.

I'm not sure if you are arguing that being hurt by a magical item is the same as being hurt by a regular one?

I have a genuine question: Do we count MCU mjolnir as being magical? I mean, if anything, I felt like the Thor movies beat us over the head with the whole "it's really advanced tech that just looks like magic" thing. And it portrayed Asgardians as, arguably, just really long-lived aliens.

Even if Superman has a weakness to magic in the movies (and we don't know if he does), would the hammer, or Hela's knives, work on him that way?

Not saying they wouldn't cut him, mind you.

IMO, That was mainly in Thor 1 and done mostly because they weren't sure audiences would accept gods as characters in a more modern day setting, since then they've started leaning back towards magic or at least a mix of the two. what with all the comments about magic and spells. plus things like Surtur, flying winged horses and Fenrir.

Originally posted by Silent Master
IMO, That was mainly in Thor 1 and done mostly because they weren't sure audiences would accept gods as characters in a more modern day setting, since then they've started leaning back towards magic or at least a mix of the two. what with all the comments about magic and spells. plus things like Surtur, flying winged horses and Fenrir.

The problem is that a lot of that could be explained with highly advanced tech. I'm not saying it isn't magic, I was just curious what other people thought.

Especially in light of Doctor Strange.

^ From Thor 1 I got the impression they were somewhere in between Magic and Science and somewhere in between gods and aliens.

But like SM said I think that was all just testing the audiences and forming a viable shared Universe with Iron Man.

It seems now they're leaning more towards the gods and magic stuff post Dr. Strange.

Although IIRC even in Dr. Strange they didn't call magic actual magic.

Well, as I mentioned in another thread, people like Kevin Feige has alluded to MCU magic as the act of drawing energy from other dimensions to perform various feats. So, depending on the level of understanding of these energies, and the terminology that the individuals use, it could be perceived as either science or magic. Which still fits with what Thor said. Even the Ancient One used the word "spells" when initially talking to Strange, but said that he could refer to what they do as a "program" or "source code" if it suited him more.

Even things like what we see on Iron Fist or Defenders could be explained either way. For example, the Hand substance they use to bring members back. You could view it as magical dragon bone resurrection juice. Or, if you view it in more traditional scientific terms, it can be viewed as a chemical with extreme regenerative properties, extracted from an alien entity.

But from a human understanding, what Hela does would be classed as "magic". Because she can seemingly use whatever energy she draws on to create matter from nothing when she creates her swords. Not the first time it has happened in the MCU either. Robbie's uncle was drawing from extra-dimensional energy to seemingly create matter out of nothing, as seen on AoS.

So, if you think of it in a sense of manipulating energy non-native to Earth's dimension, in order to achieve things that would otherwise be impossible, then it could be considered magic. But if you actually understand how this energy is doing these things, and where it comes from, it could also be considered scientific.

Unless I'm missing something MoS Superman hasn't dealt with magic and MCU asgardians aren't magical anyway.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, as I mentioned in another thread, people like Kevin Feige has alluded to MCU magic as the act of drawing energy from other dimensions to perform various feats. So, depending on the level of understanding of these energies, and the terminology that the individuals use, it could be perceived as either science or magic. Which still fits with what Thor said. Even the Ancient One used the word "spells" when initially talking to Strange, but said that he could refer to what they do as a "program" or "source code" if it suited him more.

Even things like what we see on Iron Fist or Defenders could be explained either way. For example, the Hand substance they use to bring members back. You could view it as magical dragon bone resurrection juice. Or, if you view it in more traditional scientific terms, it can be viewed as a chemical with extreme regenerative properties, extracted from an alien entity.

But from a human understanding, what Hela does would be classed as "magic". Because she can seemingly use whatever energy she draws on to create matter from nothing when she creates her swords. Not the first time it has happened in the MCU either. Robbie's uncle was drawing from extra-dimensional energy to seemingly create matter out of nothing, as seen on AoS.

So, if you think of it in a sense of manipulating energy non-native to Earth's dimension, in order to achieve things that would otherwise be impossible, then it could be considered magic. But if you actually understand how this energy is doing these things, and where it comes from, it could also be considered scientific.

I hadn't thought of Iron Fist, and that's more magic than anything we've seen thus far, imo.

Doctor Strange I think went out of its way to make it seem as un-magic-like as possible, imo. So I wasn't sure if the MCU was doing a kind of "it looks like magic, but don't dare call it magic", whereas DC was basically like "**** it, multiple pantheons yo".

Originally posted by Bentley
Again, just reread my points, nothing about them ever talks about the tower nor going back to rewrite every bad showing there is. I was replying to Silent about the possibility of Doomsday being hurt by regular metal vs a magical sword aknowledging his logic was spot on.

I'm not sure if you are arguing that being hurt by a magical item is the same as being hurt by a regular one?

I never said they were the same. I said whether something exploits a weakness of Superman's or doesn't that doesn't lessen the outcome. You previously stated its jobbing and give him a pass but excuse other weakness exploitations such as superior skill or speed say if a quicker one exploits a slower more powerful one.

Every character for the most part brings something different to the table so tear everyone the same and don't make up excuses to explain the loss.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I hadn't thought of Iron Fist, and that's more magic than anything we've seen thus far, imo.

Doctor Strange I think went out of its way to make it seem as un-magic-like as possible, imo. So I wasn't sure if the MCU was doing a kind of "it looks like magic, but don't dare call it magic", whereas DC was basically like "**** it, multiple pantheons yo".

Well, the earth sorcerers do actually refer to themselves as "sorcerers" or the "Masters of the Mystic Arts" at various points though. They even refer to the Ancient One as the "Sorcerer Supreme" at some points. But I think the angle they are going for, in the MCU as a whole at least, is of leaving it somewhat up to interpretation. Because, as I pointed out, viewers can choose to interpret things in different ways if they choose to. There is enough wiggle room either way IMO. Because, for example, from a real world point of view, drawing on exotic energy to turn a tea cup into a beer mug is f****** nonsense, but it obviously makes sense to Dr Strange.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, the earth sorcerers do actually refer to themselves as "sorcerers" or the "Masters of the Mystic Arts" at various points though. They even refer to the Ancient One as the "Sorcerer Supreme" at some points. But I think the angle they are going for, in the MCU as a whole at least, is of leaving it somewhat up to interpretation. Because, as I pointed out, viewers can choose to interpret things in different ways if they choose to. There is enough wiggle room either way IMO. Because, for example, from a real world point of view, drawing on exotic energy to turn a tea cup into a beer mug is f****** nonsense, but it obviously makes sense to Dr Strange.

Yeah. They really do seem like they want to keep it open-ended. I do like how they explained it in Doctor Strange, mind you.

It just seems very different, at least to me, from what we know in comics as magic.

Supes stomps harder than ever.

In fact, throw, the entire Avengers roster, Shield, the netflix street level shit and GoTG and they still would get horribly stomped

Superman is in a whole other level now

Originally posted by TH3_V01D
Supes stomps harder than ever.

In fact, throw, the entire Avengers roster, Shield, the netflix street level shit and GoTG and they still would get horribly stomped

Superman is in a whole other level now

Dormammu solos the dceu.

😂

Hela is shit and so is Thor.

Slowpoke snails like them dont deserve to battle Superman

Originally posted by TH3_V01D
Hela is shit and so is Thor.

Slowpoke snails like them dont deserve to battle Superman

Hela dominates.