for those guys that think hela can win are pure jokers..you well know that superman can end this fight in an instant...hela breaking that hammer was pure magic and is therfore no strength feat... going by that logic then thor should have been dead,instead she couldnt take down a group of warriors .In the justice league movie we can see clearly (except you need glasses)that supes was using steppenwolf as a rag(this was a guy that quite comfortably holding his own against the entire JL b4 supes arrived).For those who would give a BvS showing as their point that hela would win are just OBSTINATE,isnt it clear that supes was severely weak bcos of xtreme kryptonite exposure?during the fight with batman he was holding back if not there wouldnt have been any BvS movie infact he was still able to summon a huge amount of force to pierce doomsday while holding a kryptonite spear.For those who still want to argue this GO FIND THE NEAREST REHAB
As to the whole Odin enchantment bit from the first film, you could actually chalk that up to wacky science we just don't understand as well. Hell, we already have voice recognition software that can execute commands and make settings changes to devices. The Asgardians just have a far more advanced version of it... fueled by extra-dimensional plot-device energies. 😄
Or at least that's one interpretation of it. They've been suitably vague enough in recent times (especially if you also now throw in the whole dragons and immortality bit in Iron Fist/Defenders) that different people can hold different views or opinions.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
As to the whole Odin enchantment bit from the first film, you could actually chalk that up to wacky science we just don't understand as well. Hell, we already have voice recognition software that can execute commands and make settings changes to devices. The Asgardians just have a far more advanced version of it... fueled by extra-dimensional plot-device energies. 😄Or at least that's one interpretation of it. They've been suitably vague enough in recent times (especially if you also now throw in the whole dragons and immortality bit in Iron Fist/Defenders) that different people can hold different views or opinions.
Well voice recognition and biometric scanners can explain how Odin talked to it or how Thor can pick it up, but it doesn't explain how the hammer is able to judge "worthiness". That's the part that makes it magical instead of technological.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Well voice recognition and biometric scanners can explain how Odin talked to it or how Thor can pick it up, but it doesn't explain how the hammer is able to judge "worthiness". That's the part that makes it magical instead of technological.
Well, that's where the far more advanced part comes in. Which goes back to what I said in a previous post on the topic. Depending on your perspective, it could be seen as either. To us, it would be magic, because we can't explain how it does what it does. But if the Asgardians understand the process, and what is being harnessed to achieve what, would they consider it magic?
Let's take another example. People from a few centuries ago would probably think a smartphone was witchcraft of some sort. But to us, it's part of daily life. Even a necessity for many people. Nothing magic or weird about it. So, it's all about point of view.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, that's where the far more advanced part comes in. Which goes back to what I said in a previous post on the topic. Depending on your perspective, it could be seen as either. To us, it would be magic, because we can't explain how it does what it does. But if the Asgardians understand the process, and what is being harnessed to achieve what, would they consider it magic?Let's take another example. People from a few centuries ago would probably think a smartphone was witchcraft of some sort. But to us, it's part of daily life. Even a necessity for many people. Nothing magic or weird about it. So, it's all about point of view.
I have to disagree. Something that's scientifically or technologically advanced, regardless of how impossible it seems, needs to at least sound logical and quantitative. If you told me that one day people can blink their eyes to open up a contacts list in their head and call a person directly without the use of a phone... I'd believe that's technologically possible. But if you told me that one day there will be a device that you can hold which will automatically judge your soul and count how many sins you've done and whether you've had a change of heart... that's too abstract and illogical and I doubt that any technology (regardless of how advanced) would be able to do that.
Because if we accept that the Asgardians have the technology to somehow judge a person's worth and look into the future to see how they will act, then they should easily be able to stop any crime from happening in their kingdom, which means people like Loki and Hela should have been stopped way in advance.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I have to disagree. Something that's scientifically or technologically advanced, regardless of how impossible it seems, needs to at least sound logical and quantitative. If you told me that one day people can blink their eyes to open up a contacts list in their head and call a person directly without the use of a phone... I'd believe that's technologically possible. But if you told me that one day there will be a device that you can hold which will automatically judge your soul and count how many sins you've done and whether you've had a change of heart... that's too abstract and illogical and I doubt that any technology (regardless of how advanced) would be able to do that.Because if we accept that the Asgardians have the technology to somehow judge a person's worth and look into the future to see how they will act, then they should easily be able to stop any crime from happening in their kingdom, which means people like Loki and Hela should have been stopped way in advance.
Will have to agree to disagree there, because I personally think you're attributing more to the worthiness enchantment than there is.
Also, if we do look down more weird and abstract avenues, I'd argue that the Darkhold outranks Mjolnir in that regard. The shown contents on the pages, and even the language it is written in, varies depending on who is trying to read it. Two people can look at the exact same page and see completely different things. Not to mention all the crazy crap it allows you to build.
But anyway, as I have also mentioned previously, in the MCU, you can use dragon bones to make a black, sludge-like fluid that can resurrect dead people. So, yeah.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Will have to agree to disagree there, because I personally think you're attributing more to the worthiness enchantment than there is.Also, if we do look down more weird and abstract avenues, I'd argue that the Darkhold outranks Mjolnir in that regard. The shown contents on the pages, and even the language it is written in, varies depending on who is trying to read it. Two people can look at the exact same page and see completely different things. Not to mention all the crazy crap it allows you to build.
But anyway, as I have also mentioned previously, in the MCU, you can use dragon bones to make a black, sludge-like fluid that can resurrect dead people. So, yeah.
Ah well, it's not really important enough to debate about. In the end, whether it's technology or magic it's still something the Asgardians can do that humankind cannot, and Hela will be able to use those powers in this match.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Ah well, it's not really important enough to debate about. In the end, whether it's technology or magic it's still something the Asgardians can do that humankind cannot, and Hela will be able to use those powers in this match.
Oh, no arguments there. Was just more making the point that if people really want to nitpick it, arguments can be made for both sides. I tend to be on the magic side myself. Because I don't know about you but, beyond the other things mentioned, when they introduce the guy who got his powers by punching a dragon in the heart, I feel like they've crossed a certain threshold that's hard to come back from.
I think people are forgetting what science is, going by the actual definition. magic would easily qualify as science.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science
1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a: a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study the science of theology
b : something (such as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge have it down to a science
3 a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
4: a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws cooking is both a science and an art
Originally posted by Inhuman
The Science/Magic explanation doesn't makes sense for everything shown.
Like others have said now Marvel is going further and further into magic and mysticism.Even in Thor 1, Odin whispering an enchantment to Mjölnir took away Thor's powers.
That shit had to be magic of some sort not science.
What makes you think MOS is immune to magic!? He will fall just as Thor and Mjolnir did.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I think people are forgetting what science is, going by the actual definition. magic would easily qualify as science.https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science
1: the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a: a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study the science of theology
b : something (such as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge have it down to a science
3 a: knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
4: a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws cooking is both a science and an art
Well, in fiction, they generally make a point to establish a distinction between the two. But in the case of the MCU, as mentioned previously, the lines are very blurry. Like how the Ancient One mentions in Dr Strange that he could either refer to what they did as spells, or source code for the universe (or something along those lines at least), depending on which suited his sensibilities more.
Hence why I still feel that what people choose to label it as is a matter of perspective/opinion. Like I mentioned way back, and Frothbyte also alluded to, at the end of the day, the Asgardians manipulate unknown technologies and extra-dimensional energies to achieve unusual and exotic feats that defy what we currently know of our universe. At that point, I feel like labels hardly matter.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I think Marvel was just unsure if magic would be accepted in a semi realistic universe, so they had Thor make his little statement. Now that they've realized people have no problem accepting magic exists in this setting, they're leaning more heavily in that direction.
Pretty much this.
Still officially the explanations we have in Thor1 and Dr. Strange puts it somewhere in the middle.
IOW we still have to go by feats, and cant just brush off Hela crushing Mjolnir as - SHE ONLY DID THAT WITH MAGIC - nonsense.
Originally posted by $on OF krypton
for those guys that think hela can win are pure jokers..you well know that superman can end this fight in an instant...hela breaking that hammer was pure magic and is therfore no strength feat... going by that logic then thor should have been dead,instead she couldnt take down a group of warriors .In the justice league movie we can see clearly (except you need glasses)that supes was using steppenwolf as a rag(this was a guy that quite comfortably holding his own against the entire JL b4 supes arrived).For those who would give a BvS showing as their point that hela would win are just OBSTINATE,isnt it clear that supes was severely weak bcos of xtreme kryptonite exposure?during the fight with batman he was holding back if not there wouldnt have been any BvS movie infact he was still able to summon a huge amount of force to pierce doomsday while holding a kryptonite spear.For those who still want to argue this GO FIND THE NEAREST REHAB
This was for you.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
What makes you think MOS is immune to magic!? He will fall just as Thor and Mjolnir did.