Originally posted by Raptor22She was actively resisting Ben and did so successfully without even being aware of the force or the fact she had the powers. She peered into Ben's mind. The whole point of Snoke yelling at Ben was because he was too weak to get the job done. Snoke took it without issue. He let his intent be known but Snoke wasn't trying to actively rape it out of his mind at the time. He was reveling in his triumph of Luke's location. All things considered that shows Snoke's powers are a lot more impressive than Ben's which is the point of these comparisons.
I'll give u snoke tp'ing the info out if Rey. Tbh I wasn't really considering tp/mental powers like that or Vader ripping the info out of Luke's mind about him having a sister in RotJ, I thought we were talking about the more combat related powers like tk, lightning etc... Though I should have been more specific. And while snokes mental powers were impressive they didn't seem beyond Kylos ability to hide the fact that he was planning to kill him.
See the excuses are just nauseating at this point. Both combatants have full usage of their powers so it's up to them to resist. Snoke moved her around at will. There was nothing she could do about it. Take for instance Yoda tk pushing Palpatine back. He does so once but they proceeded to fight afterwards. Now if Yoda just moved him around at will and disarmed him at will that's another story. Snoke was able to disarm her at will, float her around, or just sit her down and position her body for execution. That's force domination uncontested. We see Rey and Ben stalemate after for the Lightsaber. They are equals while Snoke is on another level. Palpatine stalemated his force power when the fl's redirection sent them both reeling backwards. We never see a rival for Snoke.
You're comparing yoda being armed and ready for the fight with rey just being armed. That's the problem. Rey wasn't ready to deal with a tk attack, and didn't mount any sort of force based offense or defense against it. He didn't over power her force power, he just over powered a hundred pound woman. just like palpatine didn't over power yoda's force power in his office He just overpowered a 3 foot tall alien. [/B]
False, comparison and here's why. Snoke didn't use his personal guards to gain any advantage over Ben. Ben made the aggressive movement and was quickly sent back with his tail in between his legs. Anakin contested Dooku and eventually bested him in a fair fight.
Your point of snoke zapping him quickly and humbling kylo is moot. Since my point was that Dooku did the same thing to Anakin in AotC, only in a more impressive fashion. And Dooku didn't do it while surrounded by his own personal guards (like snoke did) that would make any sort of counter attack impractical at best.[/B]
Snoke wasn't trying to kill Ben. Dooku was trying to kill Anakin.
He caught a reckless Anakin off guard made evident by Kenobi easily blocking it with a saber. Once Anakin recovered Dooku doesn't best him with fl because he's aware of the tactic and isn't going to blindly rush in like a fool.
Dooku was able to hurl Anakin at his will, made evident by the fact that he hurled anakin around with his lightning and ko'd him at will. You're acting like because dookus blast was more potent and instantly ko'd Anakin and he didn't keep throwing him around at leisure like snoke did rey thstyit's somehow less impressive. So if obi wan wasn't there and dooku picked up anakins limp body with the force after he insta ko'd him and tossed it around for a minute would that be more impressive to u?
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It would have been more impressive if Anakin wasn't later able to duel him. The only reason he was caught off guard and humbled was due to his recklessness. This was pretty clear by their later duel that he can't just fl defeat him at will.
Speculation but anyone with a functioning brain would be able to discern Anakin charging is what caused him to be struck since Kenobi casually blocks it right after. We also don't see him hurt anyone else with his fl afterwards.
There was no evidence dooku had to go saber to saber with Anakin. It's not like he tried to overpower him again and failed like with yoda. He already humbled him with the force, so he decided to humble him with his saber the second round. Which he did by taking taking his arm. Now you're acting like humbling someone once with the force is more impressive than humbling someone with the force and sabers. Lol.
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I'm saying someone who wasn't challenged by two force users who caused panic in Luke who also had history with Vader and Palpatine. No one ever directly challenged him that he couldn't restrain or knock back with relative ease.
Seeing your double standards and mental gymnastics makes me feel otherwise. Luke's own words prove you false but you're too biased to be able to have a reasonable discussion with.
I'm hardly a fanboy or biased. I just call it like I see it. Which is more than I can say for u. And how I see it is he's firmly below Sidious, Vader and dooku. I would put him over movie only Maul tho. [/B]
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbeYour judgment is so bad you had to come in here and alter your own opinion. Feats don't prove superiority they never have. It's how these characters stack up. For ****s sake we see Yoda take a long time to lift an x wing while concentrating all his focus on the feat. We also have Maul lift something while in the duress of combat and moving far quicker. That doesn't mean Maul is stronger with the force. This isn't hard to grasp unless you're dense.
👆It's a compliment to Snoke tbh. He is powerful, if the two only dark side user who showed more impressive movie feats were Dooku and Palatine.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, it does since Luke had a gauge of Palpatine's power. He met all these characters and was in awe of Rey and Ben. I'm not saying any of these other characters could beat the emperor but that the emperor didn't display the the force superiority over any of these characters. Snoke is the most powerful force user we have ever seen and he won't have a single low showing.
Force Superiority, when it comes to potential, doesn't translate in battle prowess. Anakin is the posterboy of this since he got defeated by Kenobi and Dooku who were sensibly under him. You argue that Palpatine got defeated by Windu and that would be yet another example of that.
Ultimately it's irrelevant whether Rey or Ben have huge force reserves, in the mythos beating such prodigies has never been a definitive showing of power.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That's what is driving the Palpatine fanboys insane. In direct conflict he toyed with his opposition whereas Palpatine lost to Windu, stalemated Yoda in force power, and was killed by a very slow Vader with no usage of the force minus one hand and just a toss. Palpatine screamed like a ***** to his death.
Facing better opposition is more impressive and definitive than having an spotless record against lesser opposition. Windu destroyed Jango Fett (who gave Kenobi a pause), Yoda dealt with Dooku (who manhandled both Kenobi and Anakin) and Palps speedblitzed some Jedis before facing Windu too. We have many elements to gauge their prowess, while Rey and Ben mostly stand against each other at the moment. I'm not saying Snoke cannot be conceivable stronger than Palpatine, but to actually build up definitive proof, we need for these characters to get more impressive than just lip service from scary-cat Luke (which I hope will come in the next movie).
Originally posted by BentleySo glad you brought up Anakin's force power as being greater because when they actually use their powers mid battle we see a stalemate.
Force Superiority, when it comes to potential, doesn't translate in battle prowess. Anakin is the posterboy of this since he got defeated by Kenobi and Dooku who were sensibly under him. You argue that Palpatine got defeated by Windu and that would be yet another example of that.
That's how impressive Snoke's showings are because to do what he did to Rey is unheard of since she also stalemates Ben in the force here.
We see how Ben stacks up against Luke.
Palpatine is more powerful than Windu just as Yoda is more powerful than Dooku but not to the point either could defeat their lesser on force abilities alone. They needed to duel it out which isn't the case with Snoke. He could disarm Rey or hurl her around at his mercy. Ben was unable to extract the info or hurl her around at will. Snoke is on another level entirely. Let the truth sink in.
We have seen certain characters clearly matter. Hell, we see Luke is afraid of their raw strength and it's greater than Vader's based on his statements. We can include the emperor since Luke saw and felt his power firsthand. How these characters stack up against each other has always been the truest test of their might.
Ultimately it's irrelevant whether Rey or Ben have huge force reserves, in the mythos beating such prodigies has never been a definitive showing of power.
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False as we see Ben definitely keep up and look superior to Luke who destroyed Vader in Rotj. Windu also has no low showings since his fate was determined not in a fair manner after he had Palpatine defeated and at his mercy.
Facing better opposition is more impressive and definitive than having an spotless record against lesser opposition. Windu destroyed Jango Fett (who gave Kenobi a pause), Yoda dealt with Dooku (who manhandled both Kenobi and Anakin) and Palps speedblitzed some Jedis before facing Windu too. We have many elements to gauge their prowess, while Rey and Ben mostly stand against each other at the moment. I'm not saying Snoke cannot be conceivable stronger than Palpatine, but to actually build up definitive proof, we need for these characters to get more impressive than just lip service from scary-cat Luke (which I hope will come in the next movie). [/B]
Yoda never defeated Dooku and utterly failed in preventing the clone war. Palps beat nobodies in the upper tier in that scene.
We see lip service and his utter domination of Rey in every manner power wise in one scene. It wasn't close and he's so powerful it's unfair to use him in Star Wars vs. debates as he sits alone on the mountain top.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Palpatine is more powerful than Windu just as Yoda is more powerful than Dooku but not to the point either could defeat their lesser on force abilities alone. They needed to duel it out which isn't the case with Snoke. He could disarm Rey or hurl her around at his mercy.
To me this is the crux of the argument. You see this dispatching Rey easily as proof that Snoke has never-reached-before problems but you could as easily interpret it as "Rey wasn't in a level where she could give Snoke a challenge" just as easily. Palpatine and Yoda fought established characters with more than force abilities, which goes hand to hand with them duking it out with lightsabers.
The situation is not really unheard of either: Dooku casually disposed of Obi-Wan with the force while handling Anakin in Rise of the Sith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw , this is also more impressive because just as you just proved with your gif, we know Obi Wan to be capable to counter Force TK from a stronger opponent while Rey is a total newb vs those attacks.
Originally posted by BentleyRey gave Luke problems. Rey rose in power to balance out Ben's force darkness. Rey was a natural and we see her unbelievable she was in the MF. She schooled Han in his own MF. The girl is insanely gifted. You are ignoring her abilities are enough to challenge Luke but not Snoke. You're trying to just ignore her showings against everyone else and my undeniable evidence despite Anakin's force superiors he can't just blindly bulldoze even his lesser in a battle of force powers or even with all of his abilities on display.
To me this is the crux of the argument. You see this dispatching Rey easily as proof that Snoke has never-reached-before problems but you could as easily interpret it as "Rey wasn't in a level where she could give Snoke a challenge" just as easily. Palpatine and Yoda fought established characters with more than force abilities, which goes hand to hand with them duking it out with lightsabers.
Not being mean but are you young. You seem to have no grasp of differences of Jedi styles. Dooku bested Kenobi who uses an entirely different more cautious approach than Dooku so how either matches up against Anakin is entirely different.
The situation is not really unheard of either: Dooku casually disposed of Obi-Wan with the force while handling Anakin in Rise of the Sith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw , this is also more impressive because just as you just proved with your gif, we know Obi Wan to be capable to counter Force TK from a stronger opponent while Rey is a total newb vs those attacks. [/B]
It's like saying you beat Scottie Pippen therefore you'll beat Shaq one on one when they are two entirely different people with different strengths and weaknesses.
No, she isn't. Snoke said she'd rise to meet her dark counterpart. She met and showed Kylo can't overpower her but she can't hold a candle to Snoke. You don't even seem like you're being genuine in your points since this is in the same ****ing scene of the film.
Dooku needed to strike at the right moment to catch him off guard. It is the same as the Maul force push of Kenobi in the first prequel. He can't just force push him any time he wants but has to wait for an opening.
Snoke can use his force powers at any moment. He causally hurled her around at his mercy or disarmed her when he wanted. Ben wasn't able to do so to her. Snoke stands alone and is beyond direct assault. He's too powerful to be used in Star Wars debates as he has no equal.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Dooku needed to strike at the right moment to catch him off guard. It is the same as the Maul force push of Kenobi in the first prequel. He can't just force push him any time he wants but has to wait for an opening.Snoke can use his force powers at any moment. He causally hurled her around at his mercy or disarmed her when he wanted. Ben wasn't able to do so to her. Snoke stands alone and is beyond direct assault. He's too powerful to be used in Star Wars debates as he has no equal.
By the same token you could argue that Snoke didn't need to time his Force Powers because he fought a less experienced opponent. I can definitively see the point of Snoke being a Force Power beast and I can agree that he was untouchable by Rey at that point. For me it just doesn't immediately means no one else in the franchise can touch him (specially since Rey is unexperienced, Snoke himself told Kylo he was unexperienced more than once and Rey is in his weight class).
Again, Snoke is definitively one of the top dogs in the Force, but it's hard to establish the exact peaking order just with what we saw.
Originally posted by BentleyRey was in Luke's weight class and he had plenty of experience and also beat the utter shit out of Vader. Rey and Ben were both able to affect Luke in direct conflict but that wasn't the case with Snoke.
By the same token you could argue that Snoke didn't need to time his Force Powers because he fought a less experienced opponent. I can definitively see the point of Snoke being a Force Power beast and I can agree that he was untouchable by Rey at that point. For me it just doesn't immediately means no one else in the franchise can touch him (specially since Rey is unexperienced, Snoke himself told Kylo he was unexperienced more than once and Rey is in his weight class).Again, Snoke is definitively one of the top dogs in the Force, but it's hard to establish the exact peaking order just with what we saw.
We saw enough to establish him as the top dog. The actor even confirmed the obvious. He could manipulate Rey any which way and didn't see her as a threat at all. The same wasn't true of Ben in relation to Rey. Rey was also a threat to Luke in combat. Luke was experienced so your whole she's inexperienced clearly didn't matter against Luke. You continue to shift goalposts when the conclusion is Snoke is at the top of the food chain.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You continue to shift goalposts when the conclusion is Snoke is at the top of the food chain.
The goalpost shifting comes when you are trying to counter the point the other person makes, I'm trying to understand your stance and see why other people don't see eye to eye with you. There seems to be a good deal of subjectivity in both sides but I've come to the conclusion than more people are lowballing Snoke than it's warranted.
I haven't seen any proof of Snoke being above Palpatine by the simple basis of Luke/Vader never stacking up to him.
Originally posted by BentleyLook at Snoke's showings against two chasrcetrs he's comfirmed as being stronger than anyone he's run into. He's met and gauged Vader and Palpatine's power firsthand.
The goalpost shifting comes when you are trying to counter the point the other person makes, I'm trying to understand your stance and see why other people don't see eye to eye with you. There seems to be a good deal of subjectivity in both sides but I've come to the conclusion than more people are lowballing Snoke than it's warranted.I haven't seen any proof of Snoke being above Palpatine by the simple basis of Luke/Vader never stacking up to him.
Palpatine never showed force superiority let alone to this extent over Windu or Yoda. Snoke wasn't even able to be directly challenged. The same can be said for no one else in the entire mythos. Both Rey and Ben challenged Luke. Luke also kicked the shit out of Darth Vader. Snoke's showings stand above everyone else's. He shouldn't be used in vs debates since he's too much.
Originally posted by samappoBoth have more raw strength than either. Luke wasn't scared by Yoda's power, snowflake.
Ben and Rey aren't the equivalent of Windu or Yoda dickhead.
Snoke would rape Yoda with the force. Newer trilogy is by far the most powerful in terms of everything. Love it, called it, rubbing it in.
Originally posted by The MerchantHer raw strength and Ben's was on another level. Rey's skill was enough to knock Luke on his ass. Rey was nothing to Snoke.
Luke obviously meant potential, unless you really think Rey meditating and acknowledging the Force for the first time is above the likes of Vader, Palpatine, etc.
Rey resisted Ben without even knowing she had the force. Her powers rose to meet the darkness in Kylo.
Originally posted by redpillHe would definitely rape Sidious with the force. It's so painfully obvious not one supposed Sheevite will even accept my challenge. It's shameful of their entire fanbase. At least they mirror their cuck lord who would rather hide in the shadows with their true intentions like a woman.
and sidious