Superman vs. Avengers

Originally posted by juggerman
I'm asking what actions of his caused deaths?

His fights.

Originally posted by Silent Master
His fights.

So iyo he shouldn't have fought? Do you hold other heroes to the same standard? Do you think the Avengers are murders because bystanders die in their fights?

I only recall a few moments where Superman caused the damage(where he knocked someone into something instead of him being knocked around) and those times I don't remember any deaths. Like him knocking Nam into the train. Deaths could have occurred but we can't know either way

IMO, he is responsible for his actions. just like anyone else would.

The Avengers made an active effort to protect and save innocent people. Superman just acted like a bull in a china shop.

But you aren't giving any specifics. Zod attacked him at the end not the other way around. Kal defended himself and then others. What part of that was his fault? If someone attacked you on a street and you fought back, and in the scuffle you guys knocked someone off of a curb and they were hit by a car would you be responsible.

Sorry for the scenario again but you seem to not want to commit to a particular incident and just want to be vague. I'm trying to pin down your beliefs on this. Also you never answered my question regarding other heroes. Do you consider the Avengers or other heroes in general murders as well when bystanders die or is it just Superman?

EDIT: Just saw your edit. Superman also made efforts to protect others. I can name a few if you don't remember

Because the movie doesn't give any specifics, most of the deaths are off-screen. we know that thousands of people died and that Superman made no real effort to keep the casualties count down.

Thus depraved heart murder.

Sure he did. He saved the pilot that was about the be killed, He caught one from falling, he saved Stabler from Faora, he told people in Smallville to get inside(might have saved 6 of them lol) he saved the ship that Zod was targeting, he saved the family at the end. That's without the billions he saved by killing the World Engine. And to be fair one fight was against multiple equally powerful beings that can tear through humans like tissue paper and the second was against another one with even more abilities. The Avengers fight multiple less powerful guys and have a team to rely on. Supes was alone against equals. And there was a whole movie about how the Avengers' actions get people killed. It was def handled better than BvS but it's clearly a thing that you're willing to just overlook.

I'm not expecting your mind to change. I'm sure you know Superman tried and did save people. I'm sure you know other heroes have failed to save innocents too. I guess we just don't see it the same. Maybe you hold Supes to a higher standard as many people do so it's more obvious when he messes up than if say Tony Stark does. Idk but I guess we just agree to disagree 👆

Originally posted by juggerman
Sure he did. He saved the pilot that was about the be killed, He caught one from falling, he saved Stabler from Faora, he told people in Smallville to get inside(might have saved 6 of them lol) he saved the ship that Zod was targeting, he saved the family at the end. That's without the billions he saved by killing the World Engine. And to be fair one fight was against multiple equally powerful beings that can tear through humans like tissue paper and the second was against another one with even more abilities. The Avengers fight multiple less powerful guys and have a team to rely on. Supes was alone against equals. And there was a whole movie about how the Avengers' actions get people killed. It was def handled better than BvS but it's clearly a thing that you're willing to just overlook.

Going inside doesn't do much when people are crashing through buildings. per Zach Synder over 5,000 people died because of their fight. Even DC acknowledges how Superman didn't take any real steps to keep casualties down. so much so that they made it a huge plot point in BvS. The Avengers on the other hand did make a real effort to do so.

I'm not overlooking anything, I'm just not going to pretend that Superman put in the same level of effort to save people that the Avengers have.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Going inside doesn't do much when people are crashing through buildings. per Zach Synder over 5,000 people died because of their fight. Even DC acknowledges how Superman didn't take any real steps to keep casualties down. so much so that they made it a huge plot point in BvS. The Avengers on the other hand did make a real effort to do so.

I'm not overlooking anything, I'm just not going to pretend that Superman put in the same level of effort to save people that the Avengers have.

Superman couldn't use the same effort since again the beings were far above what Avengers fought and he was alone. He couldn't send someone to keep civilians safe or to contain opponents. And Sending them inside was the best he could do at the moment. He couldn't very well fly every person out for Smallville one by one while Nam and Faora waited patiently, and he certainly couldn't coordinate with the military for assistance since they wanted him dead too. He had them go inside because it was marginally better than staying on the streets. Again I know you know all this so I know we're pretty much at an impasse. You think Superman didn't do enough, I think he did what he could at the time. Hindsight is a ***** tho

It's not just me, it was thousands of people and DC even acknowledged they had a point and made sure to correct the issue for BvS.

Originally posted by Silent Master
It's not just me, it was thousands of people and DC even acknowledged they had a point and made sure to correct the issue for BvS.

Oh I know it isn't just you yet you're one here that thinks Superman is a murderer but not other heroes yet the other heroes have had similar backlash in films which means they are acknowledged by the company but you see it differently. You said Superman made no real effort but we see he did with less resources and no real help. And you still can't seem to point out which actions caused deaths. To me, his actions lessened deaths, specifically the ones I mentioned earlier

You're comparing backlash for people dying despite the Avengers doing their best to save lives to the backlash from Superman acting like a bull in a china shop.

Context matters.

Except a bull in a china shop doesn't go out of his way to save multiple people like I've pointed of Superman doing

Ok, acting like a bull in a china shop 99% of the time.

Except Superman only attacked beings and objects that were threatening himself or others

Depraved heart murder doesn't require that you directly kill people, do I need to post the definition again?

Yet you never stated which actions caused the deaths. You just said "his actions"

EDIT: I'm sure you would need to specify which actions caused which deaths to qualify for DHM would you not?

I already told you, his fight that resulted in the deaths of over 5,000 people. I can't go into specifics, because the movie didn't show the specifics of the 5,000+ deaths.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I already told you, his fight that resulted in the deaths of over 5,000 people. I can't go into specifics, because the movie didn't show the specifics of the 5,000+ deaths.

He didn't start the Metropolis fight. Zod attacked him. And he continued to attack him right up until he focused on the family. Superman's actions didn't cause deaths as, iirc, he didn't cause damage that killed anyone. He was punched through buildings, and while that may have killed people, it is no more his action than getting rear ended and hitting someone as a result would be considered an action of the rear ended guy.

The actual deaths were almost entirely off-screen, you can't possibly know that Superman didn't directly or indirectly cause any of the deaths.