Superman vs. Avengers

Not to mention that even if you're right about 100% of the collateral damage being caused by Zod knocking Superman into something. well guess what, after each of those attacks Superman went right back to fighting in a populated area, making no attempts to move the fight away from innocent people.

Thus, depraved heart murder.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The actual deaths were almost entirely off-screen, you can't possibly know that Superman didn't directly or indirectly cause any of the deaths.

Yes they were and this is where we agree completely. Yet we have the same evidence and come to different conclusions. We see Superman's actions kill no one and you claim he's murdered. I see Superman's actions kill no one and I say there's no proof he's murdered.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Not to mention that even if you're right about 100% of the collateral damage being caused by Zod knocking Superman into something. well guess what, after each of those attacks Superman went right back to fighting in a populated area, making no attempts to move the fight away from innocent people.

Thus, depraved heart murder.

Right back to defending himself and others you mean? And him not running away isn't an action. He was the only one on the planet that could stop Zod. It's not like he could leave it up to the authorities to handle.

The only deaths we are 100% certain of came from the WE, which Superman stopped, and Zod's HV which killed Bruce's employee. We know of no deaths caused by their actual fist fight through the city so again I'm not seeing how DHM works here. Unless of course you recall deaths I don't

I never said anything about running away, I mentioned leading the fight to less populated areas so that fewer people would die. Superman never did this, he continued purposely fighting in heavily populated areas, that choice shows a remarkable indifference for people's lives and thus depraved-heart murder.

Again is there evidence him not leading the fight away caused more deaths? We know thousands died from the WE. We know one guy died cuz Zod discovered HV right in the beginning of the fight. Are there deaths caused directly by the fight after that? I don't remember any in MOS but maybe BvS mentioned something. If not then I'm not seeing DHM

Originally posted by Silent Master
The actual deaths were almost entirely off-screen, you can't possibly know that Superman didn't directly or indirectly cause any of the deaths.

Quick question, and I'm not taking sides here, just asking for clarification purposes BUT, if you cannot confirm or deny that Superman is responsible for any of the deaths, why do you act as though he is the man most directly responsible for the deaths and therefore label him a heartless monster? I had always thought the presumption of innocent until proven guilty was a thing.

As for moving the fight, can you assure anyone Zod would have followed Superman, or allowed him to leave the populated area? Zod is not a fool, he knew he had the advantage in the city where Superman would be at the very least stunted from using his full powers. Not to mention that that is literally Clark's very first serious fight in that continuity. It's not that he was heartless IMO, it's that he had no idea how to effectively handle that situation, because it's never come to that before.

Of course fighting in a less populated area would cause less deaths than fighting in a heavily populated area, did you seriously believe that what's a good point?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Of course fighting in a less populated area would cause less deaths than fighting in a heavily populated area, did you seriously believe that what's a good point?

You never answered my question. How do you know there were any deaths at all caused by the fight outside of the guy in Bruce's building? Which Clark had no way of avoiding since it was as soon as the fight started? Seems like you just really really want him to be a murderer

Originally posted by juggerman
You never answered my question. How do you know there were any deaths at all caused by the fight outside of the guy in Bruce's building? Which Clark had no way of avoiding since it was as soon as the fight started? Seems like you just really really want him to be a murderer

Zack Snyder himself said that over 5,000 people died.

Superman wins. Back on topic.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Of course fighting in a less populated area would cause less deaths than fighting in a heavily populated area, did you seriously believe that what's a good point?

..... Reread what I asked. I didn't say Superman wouldn't relocate if he could, I'm asking why you think Zod would LET him do it? Zod has the combat experience and was controlling most of the fight despite his no flight handicap for most of the battle. He absolutely was dominating Clark for at least 75% of the fight, if not more.

The very fact that Zod couldn't fly for most of their fight and Superman could is proof that Superman could have at least tried to lead the fight away.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Zack Snyder himself said that over 5,000 people died.

Can you post it? Was it in reference to that part of the fight or the whole event?

Originally posted by Silent Master
The very fact that Zod couldn't fly for most of their fight and Superman could is proof that Superman could have at least tried to lead the fight away.

Ugh.... Zod could JUMP INTO ORBIT my man... The flight advantage on it's own would not be enough when the dude can get around just as far and just as fast. Clark didn't have time to think, which is kinda the point in portraying his inexperience. Just because he couldn't do something does not make him a heartless murder machine.

Originally posted by juggerman
Can you post it? Was it in reference to that part of the fight or the whole event?

NVM found it

The quote I found wasn't clear if he meant the entire event or just Superman v Zod.

But I just rewatched the fight and right at the start Zod says he will take the humans from him one by one. That gives Kal incentive not to try to lure Zod away since Zod might just turn his attention to the people instead. Seems like he left Kal no choice there

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Ugh.... Zod could JUMP INTO ORBIT my man... The flight advantage on it's own would not be enough when the dude can get around just as far and just as fast. Clark didn't have time to think, which is kinda the point in portraying his inexperience. Just because he couldn't do something does not make him a heartless murder machine.

Not as fast as Superman can fly nor would he be able to change directions, my point stands.

Looks like Right after Zod learned to fly Superman did try to take the fight up and away from the city. Zod brought the fight back

Originally posted by juggerman
Looks like Right after Zod learned to fly Superman did try to take the fight up and away from the city. Zod brought the fight back

If his intent was to lead Zod away from a populated area, why did he wait until Zod learned to fly before trying it?

Originally posted by Silent Master
If his intent was to lead Zod away from a populated area, why did he wait until Zod learned to fly before trying it?

Zod said he was going to kill all the people. Superman was attempting to stop him. I don't see how leaving would lure Zod since Kal wasn't his target by his own words. It wasn't until later that Zod seemed to shift his goal by his own words

Luring an enemy away from an area is a military tactic that has been used for centuries and on the off chance that Zod doesn't follow, that just means Superman has the time and distance to set up a potentially fight-ending attack. The sooner a fight ends the less damage is caused.