Net Neutrality might end.

Started by Surtur27 pages

Originally posted by Robtard
HYG, sport:

Before Net Neutrality, Internet Providers Consistently Abused Their Powers (Brief Timeline)

2005 – North Carolina ISP Madison River Communications blocked VoIP service Vonage.

2005 – Comcast blocked or severely delayed traffic using the BitTorrent file-sharing protocol. (The company even had the guts to deny this for months until evidence was presented by the Associated Press.)

2007 – AT&T censored Pearl Jam because lead singer criticized President Bush.

2007 to 2009 – AT&T forced Apple to block Skype because it didn’t like the competition. At the time, the carrier had exclusive rights to sell the iPhone and even then the net neutrality advocates were pushing the government to protect online consumers, over 5 years before these rules were actually passed.

2009 – Google Voice app faced similar issues from ISPs, including AT&T on iPhone.

2010 – Windstream Communications, a DSL provider, started hijacking search results made using Google toolbar. It consistently redirected users to Windstream’s own search engine and results.

2011 – MetroPCS, one of the top-five wireless carriers at the time, announced plans to block streaming services over its 4G network from everyone except YouTube.

2011 to 2013 – AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon blocked Google Wallet in favor of Isis, a mobile payment system in which all three had shares. Verizon even asked Google to not include its payment app in its Nexus devices.

2012 – AT&T blocked FaceTime; again because the company didn’t like the competition.

2012 – Verizon started blocking people from using tethering apps on their phones that enabled consumers to avoid the company’s $20 tethering fee.

2014 – AT&T announced a new “sponsored data” scheme, offering content creators a way to buy their way around the data caps that AT&T imposes on its subscribers.

2014 – Netflix started paying Verizon and Comcast to “improve streaming service for consumers.”

2014 – T-Mobile was accused of using data caps to manipulate online competition.

And yet the internet seemed to be doing just fine. We didn't see the type of dystopian future some try to predict.

And you still did not explain why all these companies weren't massively over charging before this. Why didn't my bills go down?

They had the ability to massively over charge, but didn't, cuz....(this is the part you fill in, explaining why they wouldn't do so before but suddenly will now)

Originally posted by Surtur
And yet the internet seemed to be doing just fine. We didn't see the type of dystopian future some try to predict.

Originally posted by Surtur
And you still did not explain why all these companies weren't massively over charging before this. Why didn't my bills go down?

They had the ability to massively over charge, but didn't, cuz....(this is the part you fill in, explaining why they wouldn't do so before but suddenly will now)

Well then, you obviously have nothing to fear from your standpoint and as said before, at least have the integrity to not bitch and moan if your cost go up and/or your services go down because of this, k. Cool?

Just a theory, but maybe they feared backlash from previous administration which wouldn't be present now?

I opened a can of worms.

Originally posted by Surtur
And yet the internet seemed to be doing just fine. We didn't see the type of dystopian future some try to predict.

I disagree. I personally experienced the arbitrary throttling that was happening.

What did I do? I had to get a VPN so the ISP could not discriminate on the content I chose to consume. What was the content? Anime TV shows, Netflix, Manga, YouTube, Crackle.

Sure, "high bandwidth" content. But I consume no more than 200GB a month in content and it is usually around 80GB. I'm not a huge consumer. And yet, I was directly targeted for using the internet, moderately, with this discriminatory practices.

Do you see why my panties are in a bunch of this?

Well Robtard it is nice to see some substance let's look deeper into this.

2005 – North Carolina ISP Madison River Communications blocked VoIP service Vonage.

There was a fact check done on this so I will quote their findings.

The facts: Madison River was a small, rural telco with 40K DSL customers and a massive debt load of some $500 million. Following an upgrade of its infrastructure to support DSL, it did on fact block access to Vonage and other competing telephone services in order to ensure the cash flow to pay for the upgrade. So yes, this happened.

The impact: A similar tactic was employed by Korea Telecom in 2006 when it upgraded its copper infrastructure to fiber. Korea Telecom’s action was perfectly legal as it was permitted by legislation to block foreign VoIP services that didn’t comply with its telecommunications law.

In the US, this would be equivalent to blocking services like Skype that don’t pay into the Universal Service Fund, support 911, or comply with other conditions that apply to telephone services of other kinds. Hence, this is more a question of regulatory compliance with the terms and conditions of telecom service than of Internet freedom.

Is it worthwhile to block VoIP to pay for DSL? How about fiber? Perhaps it is, at least for a time. But this is a policy question we’re not allowed to consider when net neutrality is the law.

The resolution: The FCC forced Madison River to sign a consent decree, pay a $15K fine, and permit Vonage to operate on its network. This result took place before the US had any formal net neutrality regulations, but it could have been achieved under either of the two Open Internet Orders or under conditions for USF subsidy payments. The FCC had Madison River over a barrel because the company lacked the funds to mount a meaningful legal defense. The company is now owned by CenturyLink, a carrier that complies with net neutrality as a matter of policy.

2005 – Comcast blocked or severely delayed traffic using the BitTorrent file-sharing protocol. (The company even had the guts to deny this for months until evidence was presented by the Associated Press.)

I think this is hilarious as it does not mention that Comcast was actually doing a good job at preventing privacy. Users of piracy networks are limited to downloading no more data than they upload. It’s necessary for them to earn download credits by making files available to others by seeding (uploading files to others). Legitimate uses of BitTorrent – such as making Linux available – do not typically have a download credit system. Overall, the practice had more impact on unlawful users than on legitimate ones, but it did shift the upload burden to other ISPs. Due to the backlash, Comcast discontinued the practice without any problems. There was a positive result of the dispute,

Following the FCC controversy, BitTorrent designed and implemented LEDBAT, a means of self-limiting its bandwidth when other applications are active. And for a time, Comcast implemented a “Fair Share” system that enabled it to limit heavy usage during periods of congestion in a protocol-agnostic way. The details of LEDBAT and Fair Share were published in Internet RFCs.

So the problem was congestion caused by BitTorrent on a DOCSIS 1.1 network. It was resolved by DOCSIS 3.0 and dialog between BitTorrent and the ISPs in the Internet Engineering Task Force forum

2007 – AT&T censored Pearl Jam because lead singer criticized President Bush.

This doesn't mention that immediately after said action at&t discontinued the practice and lost profits due to reputation damages.

2007 to 2009 – AT&T forced Apple to block Skype because it didn’t like the competition. At the time, the carrier had exclusive rights to sell the iPhone and even then the net neutrality advocates were pushing the government to protect online consumers, over 5 years before these rules were actually passed..

This allegation is unproven and not corroborated by Apple's own statements. Apple told the FCC that their actions were completely independent. The FCC has no power over the app store so net neutrality would not affect this. In addition, it is perfectly fair to assume that Apple's change in policy was related to quality rather than collusion.

2009 – Google Voice app faced similar issues from ISPs, including AT&T on iPhone.

This claim can be disregarded due to the same concerns brought up with the last one.

2010 – Windstream Communications, a DSL provider, started hijacking search results made using Google toolbar. It consistently redirected users to Windstream’s own search engine and results.

To quote the article,

Free Press portrays this incident as “hijacking user-search queries”, at best a misleading description. Windstream actually intercepted failed DNS lookups for a brief period, redirecting error pages rather than searches. Windstream says error page redirection was caused by misconfigured software and was not deliberate.

The impact: None, when domain names are typed correctly. Minor, when URIs were mistyped.

Customers complained and the problem was fixed in less than a week.

2011 – MetroPCS, one of the top-five wireless carriers at the time, announced plans to block streaming services over its 4G network from everyone except YouTube.

MetroPCS did this for reasons unrelated to net neutrality. Essentially, they had 22 Mhz of spectrum in its average urban market, and minimal allocations in rural areas. To maximize this allocation, they made a deal with youtube to provide highly compressed video streams to its customers. BTW this was one of the reasons that LTE was invented.

2011 to 2013 – AT&T, T-Mobile and Verizon blocked Google Wallet in favor of Isis, a mobile payment system in which all three had shares. Verizon even asked Google to not include its payment app in its Nexus devices.

This is another misleading example. What this forgets to note is that this prioritization was due to the shitty security design of Google Wallet. It took control of the phone’s security element, blocked out other apps, and collected personal information. Users were unable to use Google Wallet until Apple was happy with its security.

2012 – AT&T blocked FaceTime; again because the company didn’t like the competition.

What this forgets to note is that AT&T did implement FaceTime, it just did it in phases. It first began on WiFi and on the mobile network for users with tiered data plans. Then after a few months, it was enabled on all LTE phones.

2012 – Verizon started blocking people from using tethering apps on their phones that enabled consumers to avoid the company’s $20 tethering fee..

Verizon charged users 20 dollars a month for a mobile hotspot service, this was expressly mentioned in their TOS. Verizon customers who wanted to tether their laptops to the Internet through their phones had to pay extra for the privilege. The FCC sued Verizon for 1.25 million dollars and made them stop.

The FCC had the power to do this because Verizon won 700 MHz C Block spectrum at auction that carried specific “open access” conditions barring any blocking of any app at any time. This spectrum was less expensive than unencumbered spectrum, so Verizon had to honor conditions of sale. So this was less a matter of Open Internet Order rules than of auction conditions.
2014 – AT&T announced a new “sponsored data” scheme, offering content creators a way to buy their way around the data caps that AT&T imposes on its subscribers.

Why is this a problem?

2014 – Netflix started paying Verizon and Comcast to “improve streaming service for consumers.”

This increased Netflix's internet speed and had nothing but a positive effect on the consumer.

2014 – T-Mobile was accused of using data caps to manipulate online competition.

This is unverified. Well Robtard, I appreciate the effort.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ah okay. I see where the problem is. You don't know basic economics and can't comprehend what I'm telling you.

Well, please provide a study which indicates that a 10% increase in pricing does not affect user base?

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. I personally experienced the arbitrary throttling that was happening.

What did I do? I had to get a VPN so the ISP could not discriminate on the content I chose to consume. What was the content? Anime TV shows, Netflix, Manga, YouTube, Crackle.

Sure, "high bandwidth" content. But I consume no more than 200GB a month in content and it is usually around 80GB. I'm not a huge consumer. And yet, I was directly targeted for using the internet, moderately, with this discriminatory practices.

Do you see why my panties are in a bunch of this?

Were you on Comcast by chance?

I was affected in regards to speeds too.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. I personally experienced the arbitrary throttling that was happening.

What did I do? I had to get a VPN so the ISP could not discriminate on the content I chose to consume. What was the content? Anime TV shows, Netflix, Manga, YouTube, Crackle.

Sure, "high bandwidth" content. But I consume no more than 200GB a month in content and it is usually around 80GB. I'm not a huge consumer. And yet, I was directly targeted for using the internet, moderately, with this discriminatory practices.

Do you see why my panties are in a bunch of this?

I am sorry dude this is way to anecdotal, you should have changed your provider if you were bothered.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
Well, please provide a study which indicates that a 10% increase in pricing does not affect user base?

How about a real-life example: Netflix increased their prices by $1-2 (or around 10-18ish %) rate depending on service and they're still in business, because the majority of their subscribers (me being one of them) did not see the $1-2 a month more to be that much of a burden to the point they cancelled. Sure, some did. But the % increase in monthly profits offset that and then some.

Originally posted by Robtard
How about a real-life example: Netflix increased their prices by $1-2 (or around 10-18ish %) rate depending on service and they're still in business, because the majority of their subscribers did not see the $1-2 a month more to be that much of a burden to the point they cancelled. Sure, some did. But % increase in monthly profits offset that and then some.

Well, this is a fun one. Why did Netflix change their price point? This is because the point of equilibrium changed. Netflix was providing more shows and I all major companies have major data analysts that determine equilibrium. This showed Netflix that they could raise their prices and increase profits. This is unrelated to net neutrality. Now, respond to my major post.

Irrelevant to what you asked. Companies can increase cost by 10% (and more) and maintain their base to the point of profit. Kudos for trying though.

Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
I am sorry dude this is way to anecdotal, you should have changed your provider if you were bothered.

No options other than DirecTV Satellite which is not conducive to symmetric communication channels which is required for work and online gaming.

Additionally, this is absurdly far from just a dadudemon anecdote. This was standard ISP practice until the NN mandate. This is an anecdote if and only if I was the only one reporting this and it could easily be dismissed. But it's clearly not. Literally every single client was affected by these policies.

Originally posted by Robtard
Irrelevant to what you asked. Companies can increase cost by 10% (and more) and maintain their base to the point of profit. Kudos for trying though.

That was not my point of contention. Companies cannot raise their prices and maintain profits to the same extent unless the point of equilibrium changes.

To continue the above, I moved since then and now I have one option:

1. AT&T

I can use my mobile phone as an access point through the mobile networks over LTE, of course, but the speeds and ping is just simply not there.

Additionally, the reliability with AT&T's fiber optic internet solution is shaky. When internet is down, I cannot readily conduct any sort of work from home and I most certainly cannot do anything else with the internet.

Let's not pretend that there is a nice competitive market out there for ISPs for tens of millions of Americans. That's simply bullshit. Where is this Utopian Capitalist competitive market? I would love it.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No options other than DirecTV Satellite which is not conducive to symmetric communication channels which is required for work and online gaming.

Additionally, this is absurdly far from just a dadudemon anecdote. This was standard ISP practice until the NN mandate. This is an anecdote if and only if I was the only one reporting this and it could easily be dismissed. But it's clearly not. Literally every single client was affected by these policies.

Wouldn't the issue then be the lack of competition? I would complain the regulation which facilitates this problem rather than net neutrality. Personally, I would rather have faster services for Netflix/youtube.

Let's not pretend that there is a nice competitive market out there for ISPs for tens of millions of Americans. That's simply bullshit. Where is this Utopian Capitalist competitive market? I would love it.

It is not there due to government regulations. As I detailed in my first post, there are laws and regulations that make it incredibly difficult for ISP's to compete with each other.

Originally posted by dadudemon
To continue the above, I moved since then and now I have one option:

1. AT&T

I can use my mobile phone as an access point through the mobile networks over LTE, of course, but the speeds and ping is just simply not there.

Additionally, the reliability with AT&T's fiber optic internet solution is shaky. When internet is down, I cannot readily conduct any sort of work from home and I most certainly cannot do anything else with the internet.

Let's not pretend that there is a nice competitive market out there for ISPs for tens of millions of Americans. That's simply bullshit. Where is this Utopian Capitalist competitive market? I would love it.

I'm in a similar situation even though I technically have three options now, Comcast, AT&T and Dish. For a long time my only option was Comcast. Though price-wise, they're all very similar, as they compete in a very small market. If you want TV/Internet, It's choice A, B, or C; they all know that.

Dish might actually be the cheapest of the three, but it's also more limited in channels and service when I checked a few years back. I also wouldn't want to deal with having a dish.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'm in a similar situation even though I technically have three options now, Comcast, AT&T and Dish. Though price-wise, they're all very similar, as they compete in a very small market. It's A) B) or C), they all know that.

Dish might actually be the cheapest of the three, but it's also more limited in channels and service when I checked a few years back. I also wouldn't want to deal with having a dish.

This is the entire point of the market, switch to a provider that gives you faster service. I would also look into satellite providers.

https://tomwoods.com/ep-351-the-bad-economics-of-net-neutrality/ This is a great episode on net neutrality if you are interested.

My point was that I don't really have a choice still, even though I have three choices now. Comcast & AT&T offer the same service for around the same prices, they scale their prices very closely last I checked. So it's chicken with potatoes or chicken with potatoes, just a different wrapper.

Dish is cheaper (irc), but more limited and I'd have to deal with having a dish and I don't want that. This is chicken with brussel sprouts and I'm not a fan of brussel sprouts.

I'll check it out later when time allows.

Originally posted by Robtard
My point was that I don't really have a choice still, even though I have three choices now. Comcast & AT&T offer the same service for around the same prices. So it's chicken with potatoes or chicken with potatoes, just a different wrapper.

Dish is cheaper (irc), but more limited and I'd have to deal with having a dish and I don't want that.

I'll check it out later when time allows.

But it would be fair to say, that net neutrality is not responsible for your problems.