Base Goku vs SSJ Goten and Trunks

Started by Galan0074 pages
Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I've got a million of 'em, but you should try clearing your plate first before talking about dessert. 😂

Excuses is a term I'd use to describe pure and absolute guesswork. Guesswork like this notion that the boys were in their base state at the time Buutenks reverts to Buucilo. Guesswork like this notion Buu is actively swapping his victims in and out of their suppressed states in order to tap into their power as opposed to simply having the power like Cell. All guesswork. All baseless. And all meaningless to our conversation. The only thing we know is that the author took the time to have Buu take on Piccolo's form the minute Gotenks fusion time expired. And again, it's a bit too much of a stretch for me to believe Toriyama was using that scene to make the point of "Hey guys, by having Buutenks become Bucciolo, I am only suggesting that Piccolo > Base Goten/Trunks." Just not how he operates. Same reason he doesn't bother to have anyone "power up" to fuel the genki dama.

...none

Dark-Kenshin Blocked

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why would we assume anything else? They've always unfused into base. 😕
You're missing the point. We don't know how the mechanics of him using their powers operates. Whether that involves them switching in an out of SSJ, having them all go from suppressed to full power individually, him having that power innately now while they are absorbed or anything in that regard really.

I don't recall Cell ever absorbing anyone who transforms to increase their power.
I think he did in GT briefly, but other than that though, he seems to get by just fine with the abilities of people whose cells he has or are otherwise jucified. 😕

I really don't think Toriyama cared whether Piccolo was stronger than the kids or not. 😕
I don't think he cared enough to make the distinction that SSJ Goten and Trunks > Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks anymore than he cares to have characters go Super saiyan before giving energy to the spirit bomb 😂

The point of the scene is pretty straightforward: Strongest person absorbed = Most design influence. In this case, Gotenks was the strongest, so Buu got the fusion jacket. Gotenks defuses, so now he has Piccolo's cape. Pure. Simple. Straightforward. 🙂

carver9 Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
...none

😂 😂

SSJGGogeta Senior Member

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
You're missing the point. We don't know how the mechanics of him using their powers operates. Whether that involves them switching in an out of SSJ, having them all go from suppressed to full power individually, him having that power innately now while they are absorbed or anything in that regard really.

I think he did in GT briefly, but other than that though, he seems to get by just fine with the abilities of people whose cells he has or are otherwise jucified. 😕

I don't think he cared enough to make the distinction that SSJ Goten and Trunks > Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks anymore than he cares to have characters go Super saiyan before giving energy to the spirit bomb 😂

The point of the scene is pretty straightforward: Strongest person absorbed = Most design influence. In this case, Gotenks was the strongest, so Buu got the fusion jacket. Gotenks defuses, so now he has Piccolo's cape. Pure. Simple. Straightforward. 🙂

Shut the **** up. You're missing the point, you neophyte.

The kids stopped being SSJ the moment they defused, otherwise they still would have been SSJ when Goku and Vegeta found them. It's not hard at all for them to stay SSJ for a few hours. They're more naturally skilled at using SSJ than Goku and Gohan, and they stayed SSJ1 for over a week, with ease.

Toriyama was establishing NOTHING other than the fact that Piccolo was stronger than the base saiyan kids, which should be obvious, to anyone that isn't retarded.

RIGHT. Gotenks defused, leaving the two base form Saiyan children and Piccolo, OUT OF WHICH, PICCOLO WAS THE STRONGEST- I.E. WHY HE WAS THE DOMINANT ABSORBEE.

BUUTENKS >>> MYSTIC GOHAN > BUUCOLO >>> PICCOLO > BASE FORM TRUNKS > BASE FORM GOTEN

THEM AS SSJ1 MAKES THEM STRONGER THAN PICCOLO. Otherwise he wouldn't have shit his cape when they went full power on the lookout. Piccolo was fodder compared to even Shin, the Supreme Kai. SSJ1 Trunks did more damage to Buu with a kick than Shin did with his strongest, most desperate attack. SSJ1 Trunks is arguably stronger than Shin himself, and Piccolo was trash compared to him.

SSJ1 Trunks > Shin >>> Piccolo > Base Trunks

Not that complicated. 👆

carver9 Senior Member

I agree.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Lol, ikr?

Not to mention that EVERY single time the boys have canonically fused, they've done so from their BASE levels:

1st time in DBZ:
https://i.imgur.com/PiChe4R.jpg

2nd time in DBZ:
https://i.imgur.com/KsiUxTZ.jpg

3rd time in DBZ:
https://i.imgur.com/GSBSBCv.jpg

4th time in the film "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!" (yes, it's canon):
https://i.imgur.com/ouuJLDY.jpg

5th time in BoG:

6th time in DBS:

...So why in the hell anyone would try to pretend like they'd return to anything but their BASE levels upon de-fusing is hysterically stupid. What? You think they inextricably POWER UP when they split? 😂

Dark-Kenshin Blocked

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Shut the **** up. You're missing the point, you neophyte.
Did I touch a nerve? Wait to you hear my opinion on base multiplier theories, the strongest Buu and whatever other pressing hot button issue I'm forgetting. Guaranteed to burst a blood vessel.😂

The kids stopped being SSJ the moment they defused, otherwise they still would *snip*.
That's all well and good, but do you know the mechanic's of Buu's absorption powers? Do you know if it involves him switching his victims in and out of suppressed/transformed states or if he simply has their abilities innately while they lie dormant? If so, quote and source. If not, unless you wanna talk fanfiction, we don't have anything else to talk about. It's really that simple. 😉

Toriyama was establishing NOTHING other than the fact that Piccolo was stronger than the base saiyan kids, which should be obvious, to anyone that isn't retarded.
It doesn't look like he was establishing anything besides strongest absorbed victim = Most design influence. The "base saiyan kids" part is something you and others are inferring as a result of pure speculation as to how Buu's abilities work. Much like power levels, base multiplier theories and fan calcs and whatever else I'm forgetting, something I don't really deal in. Sorry.

THEM AS SSJ1 MAKES THEM STRONGER THAN PICCOLO. Otherwise he wouldn't have shit his cape when they went full power on the lookout. Piccolo was fodder compared to even Shin, the Supreme Kai. SSJ1 Trunks did more damage to Buu with a kick than Shin did with his strongest, most desperate attack. SSJ1 Trunks is arguably stronger than Shin himself, and Piccolo was trash compared to him.
Trunks caught Buu "off guard", which appears to be Toriyama's ultimate equalizer since that's pretty much always the excuse given when someone gets in a really good hit regardless of the difference in strength. 😂

NewGuy01 perpetual
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
You're missing the point. We don't know how the mechanics of him using their powers operates. Whether that involves them switching in an out of SSJ, having them all go from suppressed to full power individually, him having that power innately now while they are absorbed or anything in that regard really.

Now you're the one making assumptions. None of your alternatives were indicated to be the case anywhere in the manga.

I think he did in GT briefly,

Well, GT isn't canon.

I don't think he cared enough to make the distinction that SSJ Goten and Trunks > Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks

I don't believe he made that distinction; rather, he made the distinction that SSJ3 Gotenks > Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks. Nothing more, nothing less. Whether or not Piccolo is as strong as SSJ Goten or SSJ Trunks wasn't addressed at all in that scene.

Dark-Kenshin Blocked

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, ikr?

Not to mention that EVERY single time the boys have canonically fused, they've done so from their BASE levels:

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but if you're gonna try to one me up on minutia, you should at least make sure you're correct about it . . .

. . . or else you might end up looking hysterically stupid in the process. 😂

NewGuy01 perpetual

^Yeah, I was about to say...

Originally posted by Galan007

4th time in the film "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!" (yes, it's canon)

Well, if you're going to use that... Wouldn't it be a bit hypocritical of you not to consider Goku saying Frieza (whom he didn't consider much of a foe, himself) would be a perfect match for the kids?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Lol, that was before the boys realized that going SSJ after fusion was a possibility. After that scene, they never powered up beyond base again before fusing, because they don't need to. I should have mentioned it beforehand, though.

This brings me to me next question: did they power up to SSJ before Boo absorbed them? Yes or no. If the answer is 'no'(and I'm certain it will be), then your opinion isn't any less idiotic. 🙂

...Not that you'll answer the question directly, though. You'll just respond with more troll-esque drivel... Seems to be your MO. 🙂

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, if you're going to use that... Wouldn't it be a bit hypocritical of you not to consider Goku saying Frieza (whom he didn't consider much of a foe, himself) would be a perfect match for the kids?
Eh, why on earth is it hypocritical? The boys easily trounced the 'Freeza-level' Abo & Kado in their BASE levels without ever powering up. The *only* issue they had during the fight is when A&K used cloning -- and that was just because they had never seen that technique before and weren't yet adept at reading ki(which was easily corrected with some coaching from Gohan.)

The boys, at base, were a LOT more powerful, though. srsly

Dark-Kenshin Blocked

Originally posted by Galan007
Lol, that was before the boys realized *snip*.
Oh don't give me the run-around routine. You misspoke. Clearly. I did the same thing in an above post when I was making the point that we don't know how whether the boys were SSJ or not when Buutenks defused. Clearly. Now it's 1-1. Game is tied! Are we going into overtime? Next point wins maybe? Lol. But really, who cares about minutia? 😂

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

😂

So like I said...

Originally posted by Galan007
...Not that you'll answer the question directly, though. You'll just respond with more troll-esque drivel... Seems to be your MO. 🙂

Dark-Kenshin Blocked

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Now you're the one making assumptions. None of your alternatives were indicated to be the case anywhere in the manga.
That's on account of the fact that this is simply not an issue that is by any means addressed in the manga. All we know is that Buu keeps his victims stored in his body. Whether he needs to puppeteer them (i.e. have the boys go SSJ, power up, use abilities) or has simply has their abilities innately is pure postulation on the fans part.

Well, GT isn't canon.
It's not, but that was a pretty badass image from Cell nonetheless. 😛

I don't believe he made that distinction; rather, he made the distinction that SSJ3 Gotenks > Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks. Nothing more, nothing less. Whether or not Piccolo is as strong as SSJ Goten or SSJ Trunks wasn't addressed at all in that scene.
If Tori gave any significance to the base forms during this scene or was the type of writer to give that much attention to detail, I could agree. But when I see stuff like nobody going Super Saiyan to give their ki to the genki dama, I'm more inclined to have a simpler outlook on his intentions. I'll agree to disagree here.

SSJGGogeta Senior Member
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Oh don't give me the run-around routine. You misspoke. [b]Clearly. I did the same thing in an above post when I was making the point that we don't know how whether the boys were SSJ or not when Buutenks defused. Clearly. Now it's 1-1. Game is tied! Are we going into overtime? Next point wins maybe? Lol. But really, who cares about minutia? 😂 [/B]

Are you daft? Do you realize that you're injecting a pointless, and superficial variable here, that has no support in the source material, whatsoever? Every time the boys have unfused, they've been reverted to base form. Also, Buu wouldn't have needed to rely on Gotenks' power in the first place if he could control the forms of his absorption's. Since he could, you know, RE-FUSE THEM INSIDE OF HIM. If he could control their actions, he would be able to make them fuse again, since they know how to do it extremely well. No. It's that simple. He can't control their forms, OR their actions, while they're inside him. 👆

NewGuy01 perpetual
Originally posted by Galan007
The boys easily trounced the 'Freeza-level' Abo & Kado in their BASE levels without ever powering up.

Well, you just got done pointing out that Goku himself isn't as strong as Frieza in base, so hopefully we can agree that Tarble's comparison was garbage.

What's more important is, regardless of how strong Abo Cado actually turned out to be, Goku considered a Frieza-level opponent to be about right the kids.

SSJGGogeta Senior Member

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, you just got done pointing out that Goku himself isn't as strong as Frieza in base, so hopefully we can agree that Tarble's comparison was garbage.

What's more important is, regardless of how strong Abo Cado actually turned out to be, Goku considered a Frieza-level opponent to be about right the kids.

That special was garbage, altogether.

Right. He considered two Frieza level opponents to be just right for the kids... In base form. They didn't even go SSJ against them. Keep in mind this was the boys when they were out of practice, and had gotten weaker, like Gohan.

Dark-Kenshin Blocked

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Are you daft? Do you realize that you're injecting a pointless, and superficial variable here, that has no support in the source material, whatsoever? Every time the boys have unfused, they've been reverted to base form.
What part of "I misspoke" are you not understanding here? 😂

Yes, goten and trunks have always defused to base and my previous example of us not knowing whether they were SSJ or not is rendered moot as a result, but my actual point remains intact. We have no clue whether Buu has his victims abilities innately or needs to actually manipulate them in the fashion (i.e. swap 'em in an out of SSJ) you're alluding to. Hence, guesswork.

Also, Buu wouldn't have needed to rely on Gotenks' power in the first place if he could control the forms of his absorption's. Since he could, you know, RE-FUSE THEM INSIDE OF HIM.
At no point does Tori make this an issue. Presumably due to Gotenks's one hour cooldown time making refusion impossible under the circumstances and Vegito just being too broken for it to matter. You could very well be right, but we don't have enough information to know one way or the other. All guesswork unfortunately.

SSJGGogeta Senior Member

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
What part of "I misspoke" are you not understanding here? 😂

Yes, goten and trunks have always defused to base and my previous example of us not knowing whether they were SSJ or not is rendered moot as a result, but my actual point remains intact. We have no clue whether Buu has his victims abilities innately or needs to actually manipulate them in the fashion (i.e. swap 'em in an out of SSJ) you're alluding to. Hence, guesswork.

At no point does Tori make this an issue. Presumably due to Gotenks's one hour cooldown time making refusion impossible under the circumstances and Vegito just being too broken for it to matter. You could very well be right, but we don't have enough information to know one way or the other. All guesswork unfortunately.

What I guess I fail to understand about your thought process, is how any of that matters? The fact still remains that the boys are demonstrably not stronger than Piccolo in base form. In SSJ? Sure, I wholeheartedly believe they're around Perfect Cell level, based on their showings. Base form is a different story though. They're around Frieza level, according to Goku in the Yo special, which Piccolo surpassed by leaps and bounds during the Cell saga.

Also, the cooldown doesn't really matter. Having to wait an hour for fusion to be ready again wasn't a problem for Buu before, and Buucolo was much smarter and more powerful than Super Buu. This is all pointless to talk about though- the fact of the matter is that Buu can't control his absorption's based on his own showings, and this debunks your little argument of Piccolo being > SSJ Trunks/Goten.

In regards to the thread, Goten and Trunks win easily, and might even pull wins in base form.