Base Goku vs SSJ Goten and Trunks

Originally posted by Galan007
Tarble has encountered A&K before... He KNEW how strong they were... He KNEW how strong FIRST form Freeza was... He DIDN'T know anything about Freeza's other forms, period. The fact that you're pretending like his comment doesn't matter here is hysterical, tbh... Especially given the ambiguity of Goku's comment in the film.

It's also worth noting that *only* Freeza's FIRST form(PL=530,000) could be numerically measured/read on a scouter(which he was happy to tell any would-be opponent: 530,000.) The rest of his transformations were beyond a scouter's ability to read...
https://i.imgur.com/N4reOAE.jpg
2nd Form Freeza: "IF any instrument could read my strength..."

Guess what? Tarble couldn't sense ki, and explicitly relied on scouters to read his opponents' PL. So unless you think he had a super-duper upgraded scouter that could inextricably read a PL of 120,000,000, then he would have NO way to even ballpark-compare A&K to final form Freeza... Even IF he knew about Freeza's other transformations.

FIRST form Freeza was Tarble's ONLY point of reference. From a logical standpoint, *that* is the level A&K were intended to be at. End of story.

It doesn't mean he wasn't thinking about Freeza's first form, either... Dude. Goku's wholly ambiguous/generalized blanket statement about Freeza in the film isn't exactly an incontrovertible piece of evidence(obviously.)

What's not computing here?

>I say I'm not talking about Tarble's opinion, or Abo and Cado's power in general
>Galan replies with three paragraphs about why Tarble's thoughts on Abo and Cado are valid. Again.

It's mind blowing how someone who is generally pretty smart could miss the point so many times in a row.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
>I say I'm not talking about Tarble's opinion, or Abo and Cado's power in general
>Galan replies with three paragraphs about why Tarble's thoughts on Abo and Cado are valid. Again.

It's mind blowing how someone who is generally pretty smart could miss the point so many times in a row.

I agree with you, on this one.

Galan usually is pretty smart, maybe we're not explaining it well enough? 😆

Originally posted by NewGuy01
>I say I'm not talking about Tarble's opinion, or Abo and Cado's power in general
>Galan replies with three paragraphs about why Tarble's thoughts on Abo and Cado are valid. Again.

It's mind blowing how someone who is generally pretty smart could miss the point so many times in a row.

You: "Tarble's statement doesn't matter!! Goku's completely ambiguous dialogue is the incontrovertible truth!!"

Why wouldn't I ignore that line of 'logic' in favor of facts that can actually be...you know... substantiated? 😂

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not 'missing' anything, lol. I am ignoring your hysterically biased opinion.

You: "Tarble's statement doesn't matter!! Goku's completely ambiguous dialogue is the incontrovertible truth!!"

Why wouldn't I ignore that line of 'logic' in favor of facts that can actually be...you know... substantiated? 😂

Clearly, you are missing something. 😆

That's not what either of us are saying. We're saying that Tarble's statement and Goku's can both be true. Final form Frieza is stronger than First form, and A + K were "stronger than Frieza". It wouldn't make sense to say, "Oh, well they were stronger than Frieza, but Frieza would lol-stomp in any form other than first form". That's contradictory, because they wouldn't be STRONGER than Frieza, they'd be stronger than the weakest form of Frieza.

All you're saying is, "No, Tarble didn't know of Frieza's other forms, so obviously Goku knew exactly what he was talking about and was agreeing with him."

Goku's not that smart, lol. It wouldn't make sense for Goku to be thinking of Frieza in his first form, despite never even seeing him. This doesn't mean Goku's an idiot, or Tarble is wrong, because as I said, "Both of them can be right".

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Clearly, you are missing something. 😆

That's not what either of us are saying. We're saying that Tarble's statement and Goku's can both be true.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No, no, no, that's just it. Tarble's statement doesn't matter at all

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because how strong Tarble thinks Abo and Cado are is irrelevant. All that matters is how strong Goku thinks the kids are. Period.

"😆", indeed. 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
Clearly you didn't read NewGuy's posts before you decided to start cheerleading him... Because he literally said the exact opposite:

"😆", indeed. 🙂

I'm not cheerleading anyone, lol. He might have taken a different approach, but he reached the same destination, and I agree with his answer.

You still haven't even acknowledged my argument though, jackass.

Edit: Btw, since when are we allowed to cuss on here? 😕

Huh?

You said BOTH comments hold the same weight. NewGuy said Tarble's comment doesn't matter at all.

...In what world is that the 'same destination'? 😑

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not 'missing' anything, lol. I am ignoring your hysterically biased opinion.

😬 What? You're not ignoring anything, you're responding with an argument that has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

You: "Tarble's statement doesn't matter! Goku's completely ambiguous dialogue is the incontrovertible truth!" Why wouldn't I ignore that line of 'logic'?

Because Tarble's statement has no bearing on Goku's statement. All Tarble said was that Abo and Cado should be "around as strong as Frieza." Now, he may well be wrong about that; maybe he was comparing them to First Form Frieza. That's fine. I don't really care how strong Abo and Cado are.

More importantly, hearing that, Goku replies with: "Frieza, huh... In hindsight, not much of a foe. That's perfect for the kids."

Hindsight: Perception of the nature of an event after it has happened.

There is no reason to assume Goku would refer to the Frieza he didn't fight instead of the Frieza he actually fought when reflecting on how worthy of a foe he was in hindsight. It would be different if Tarble had mentioned First Form Frieza specifically, or if Goku gave any indication of accounting for Tarble's ignorance, but neither of those things happened.

The most reasonable thing to conclude from the dialogue is that Goku recalled his fight with Frieza, and decided that it was too low-level for him to be currently interested, but figured it would be a neat challenge for the kids. It wouldn't make any sense at all for him to say that if he were talking about suppressed Frieza; that would just be a spite match. Frankly, the "hysterically biased" thing to do would be to assume that Goku was thinking of the kids in base only, just so that your 1st Form Frieza comparison can still make a modicum of sense.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
What I guess I fail to understand about your thought process, is how any of that matters? The fact still remains that the boys are demonstrably not stronger than Piccolo in base form. In SSJ? Sure, I wholeheartedly believe they're around Perfect Cell level, based on their showings. Base form is a different story though. They're around Frieza level, according to Goku in the Yo special, which Piccolo surpassed by leaps and bounds during the Cell saga.

This is all pointless to talk about though- the fact of the matter is that Buu can't control his absorption's based on his own showings, and this debunks your little argument of Piccolo being > SSJ Trunks/Goten.

In regards to the thread, Goten and Trunks win easily, and might even pull wins in base form.

{deleted}

@NewGuy
I went back and deleted my response to you, because we are just talking in circles at this point... It's obvious that no one here is going to change their opinion on the matter, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. You are more than welcome to respond to my post if you want to get in a few last 'points' or w/e, but I am VERY much over this particular discussion... I'm sure you would agree that it has gone absolutely nowhere except into the realm of sheer boredom, lol.

...But thanks for the discussion anyway. 👆

That's fine by me, if not mildly disappointing. I probably would have stopped by now too if I didn't remember how long it took us to get on the same page with those SSJB vs SSJ4 debates way back when.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
The only evidence I've seen of the boys being stronger in SSJ is a comment from a title page calling Goten and Trunks the strongest heroes on earth now that Gohan, Vegeta and Goku are gone. Problem is that this gets undermined later when Buu reverts from Buutenks and Buccilo. Everything (and I mean literally everything) else I've seen posited on the subject is conjecture that doesn't appear to take into account the fact that DB is written by a mangaka with little regard for consistency, much less any care or interest in what Goku may have said two hundred chapters ago when he first stepped foot on namek. And while it's fun to lie to ourselves and come up with theories to explain why the boys would be able to do well against so-called Frieza level opponents in their base stats when it's later established that Base Goku is weaker than Frieza, lets not get carried away here. 😂
Basically, he can't control his absorptions because you say so. Meanwhile, in the actual source material, no situation arises where we see such a limitation. Buu makes no attempt to go hide and wait an hour to try re-fusing; he doesn't need to. He absorbs Gohan immediately and immediately gains the upper-hand. Buuhan makes no attempt to go hide and wait an hour to try re-fusing against Vegito; he doesn't need to. He absorbs Vegito immediately and believes he has gained the upperhand. Saying Buu can't control his absorptions is the equivalent to saying there's no new namek in the future trunks timeline or else Future Trunks would have used the dragon balls. It's an argument from ignorance and therefore an argument to be rejected.We could stipulate that Goten and Trunks were stronger in SSJ and I'd still give Goku the upperhand. I've seen nothing from the boys that would convince me they have an answer to the two instant transmission combos we've seen Goku pull off in the cell and Buu arcs respectively. And if we turn CIS off and bloodlust everybody, Goku nukes the planet like Kid Buu and then ITs to King Kai's planet. Hell, we could stipulate Base Goku to being a 3 in base and Goten/Trunks to being 1s respectively and kaioken x 20 would immediately render SSJ null and void. 😛

Holy shit, you're dumb.

1. Gohan was stronger than Shen, as a SSJ1, who was conversely much stronger than Piccolo, IOW's. SSJ1 Gohan > Shen >>> Piccolo. Then keep in mind that Goten is equal >= Gohan, and Trunks is even stronger than Goten.

Therefore: SSJ1 Trunks > SSJ1 Goten >= SSJ1 Gohan > Shen >>> Piccolo.

Go back to kindergarten and learn how to read, before you develop the audacity to argue with me against facts. 👇

2. AGAIN, PICCOLO IS STRONGER THAN THE BASE FORM SAIYAN'S. THIS IS NOT NEWS. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT HE IS STRONGER THAN THE AS SSJ'S. LET'S ALSO NOT FORGET THAT TRUNKS OVERPOWERED PICCOLO WHEN HE WENT TO FIGHT BUU, AND PICCOLO COULDN'T EVEN STOP GOTEN.

Piccolo knew the boys would be no match for Buu, and still didn't stop them. Why? BECAUSE HE COULDN'T. He's not as strong as they are, plain and simple.

3. Actually, the situation DOES arise where Super Buu is limited by not being able to control his own absorptions while they're within his body. He literally just stores them in his body to use as batteries. He can't control them or their actions, which should be obvious in the first place, given their lack of CONSCIOUSNESS.

If Super Buu could control the actions of his absorptions, he wouldn't have CEASED TO EXIST. He would have simply made Fat Buu wrap around Vegeta and absorb him, moved Fat Buu and hid him somewhere else in his body, or he would have simply made Fat Buu attack him.

The fact is that he didn't, so he couldn't. He literally lost his existence because he didn't control Fat Buu inside him. I'm pretty sure he would have, if he could have. 👆

4. You're acting like a. The kids couldn't stop Goku from nuking the planet, despite being around 50 times stronger than him, since they're comparable to him in power bearing superior forms, and b. The kids bloodlusted wouldn't just kill Goku outright, before he could move.

5. You're ignoring the bottom line here, which is that Piccolo is NOT as strong as the boys in SSJ1, and that the boys are both comparable to Goku when each party is in base. Even if Goku was twice as strong as them, which he's not, IOW's, Kaioken X20 still wouldn't make him as strong as the boys in SSJ1. He'd still be far weaker, and using up vastly larger amounts of stamina. The boys would outlast him, while already being far stronger.

Goku has NO chance of winning here, if the boys are serious. Your little putrid, in-denial comments about him somehow being stronger than the SSJ boys in base form, and Piccolo being stronger than even the SSJ boys, is ludicrous.

Hell, Piccolo wasn't even strong enough to STOP the boys, let alone defeat them in a fight. Same thing for Goku- what makes you think he's beating someone stronger than SSJ Gohan, in base form?

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Holy shit, you're dumb.

1. Gohan was stronger than Shen, as a SSJ1

, who was conversely much stronger than Piccolo, IOW's. SSJ1 Gohan > Shen >>> Piccolo. Then keep in mind that Goten is equal >= Gohan *snip*

2. AGAIN, PICCOLO IS STRONGER THAN THE BASE FORM SAIYAN'S. THIS IS NOT NEWS. THIS DOES [B]NOT MEAN THAT HE IS STRONGER THAN THE AS SSJ'S.[/b]

Everything else (i.e. Piccolo being shocked by Goten and Trunks power or him not doing anything to stop Goten and Trunks from attacking Buu) is immaterial. The fact of the matter is that the single time the author gives a direct comparison of their power levels, he puts Piccolo on top. We can concoct all of the theories and fanfiction in the world to try and explain otherwise, but at the end of the day, none of that is in the manga or anime. And so for me, the issue is straightforward.

Otherwise, you may as well try the same fanfiction exercise to explain how "Beerus was lying" when he said Goku couldn't beat Frieza in base. Perhaps bring up Vegeta's comments during the Buu arc and then assert Base Vegeta > Shen > Piccolo >= Android 17 > Android Saga Trunks > Frieza while you're at it. 😂

3. Actually, the situation DOES arise where Super Buu is limited by not being able to control his own absorptions while they're within his body. He literally just stores them in his body to use as batteries. He can't control them or their actions, which should be obvious in the first place, given their lack of CONSCIOUSNESS.

If Super Buu could control the actions of his absorptions, he wouldn't have CEASED TO EXIST. He would have simply made Fat Buu wrap around Vegeta and absorb him, moved Fat Buu and hid him somewhere else in his body, or he would have simply made Fat Buu attack him.

Or is it also your position that Buu also randomly lost the ability to absorb people for some strange and mysterious reason? For that matter, why even panic about SSJ's Vegeta's threats when he is well capable of blitzing him either with an attack or the candy beam? Are we also to believe SSJ Vegeta > Super Buu in that moment? You've already established that "not stopping someone = being weaker than someone", so why not? 😛

4. You're acting like a. The kids couldn't stop Goku from nuking the planet, despite being around 50 times stronger than him, since they're comparable to him in power bearing superior forms, and b. The kids bloodlusted wouldn't just kill Goku outright, before he could move.

Saying the kids are 50x stronger than Base Goku is glorified fanfic BS btw as it's implying without justification that Buu saga Base Goku = Base Goten and Trunks. Prove it. That's horsesh-t even by your own logic.

5. You're ignoring the bottom line here, which is that Piccolo is NOT as strong as the boys in SSJ1, and that the boys are both comparable to Goku when each party is in base

Even if Goku was twice as strong as them, which he's not, IOW's, Kaioken X20 still wouldn't make him as strong as the boys in SSJ1. He'd still be far weaker, and using up vastly larger amounts of stamina. The boys would outlast him, while already being far stronger.

Originally posted by Galan007
Guess what? Tarble couldn't sense ki, and explicitly relied on scouters to read his opponents' PL. So unless you think he had a super-duper upgraded scouter that could inextricably read a PL of 120,000,000, then he would have NO way to even ballpark-compare A&K to final form Freeza... Even IF he knew about Freeza's other transformations.

Course who knows, Tarble could easily have been meaning Abo and Cado's fusion were > Freeza not them individually.

Eh, the exact same scene happened in the film. Goku starts powering up in base, blink-transforms to SSJ2, then Tarble's scouter 'beeps' a few times before exploding.

The scouter 'beeping' certainly doesn't mean it recorded anything at all... Just means it was freaking out at the sudden/rapid rise in power before it burst.

Scouters have been broken by much lower, so he's got better scouters than some people, to even be able to read a power level of even first form Freeza

Not saying his scouter wasn't upgraded to *some* extent. Just saying that it certainly wasn't implied to have 'read' the PL of SSJ2 Goku... At all.

First form Freeza's ki must have been readable by scouters. That's likely how he knew its PL was exactly 530,000.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Says the guy who is about to educate me with his own personal glorified fanfiction. 😂

That's nice, but any suggestion from the Daizenshuu that Goten = Gohan contradicts the manga, as Gohan himself, although impressed by Goten's potential, is fretful that him and Trunks could surpass him if he doesn't train . . . after managing to avoid every punch Goten could throw at him. What's more, the Daizenshuu also says Gohan's power hadn't decreased, outright disputing statements made during the Dabura fight, so I'll stick with the manga if you don't mind. Perhaps you can "go back to kindergarten" and learn a thing or two about rocks in glass houses. 😂 Dead horse. If Toriyama wanted to make the point you're making, it would've been real easy. Just put Super Buu in Trunks' clothes or have Goku say something like "Good thing the boys reverted back to their normal state." Problem solved. Would've required zero effort on his part. Just a single panel. No need to have fans like yourself present glorified fanfiction in his steed. 😉

Everything else (i.e. Piccolo being shocked by Goten and Trunks power or him not doing anything to stop Goten and Trunks from attacking Buu) is immaterial. The fact of the matter is that the single time the author gives a direct comparison of their power levels, he puts Piccolo on top. We can concoct all of the theories and fanfiction in the world to try and explain otherwise, but at the end of the day, none of that is in the manga or anime. And so for me, the issue is straightforward.

Otherwise, you may as well try the same fanfiction exercise to explain how "Beerus was lying" when he said Goku couldn't beat Frieza in base. Perhaps bring up Vegeta's comments during the Buu arc and then assert Base Vegeta > Shen > Piccolo >= Android 17 > Android Saga Trunks > Frieza while you're at it. 😂

By that logic, why didn't Buu simply use the flesh throughout the entire cavern to absorb Goku and Vegeta immediately upon realizing their presence like so:

Or is it also your position that Buu also randomly lost the ability to absorb people for some strange and mysterious reason? For that matter, why even panic about SSJ's Vegeta's threats when he is well capable of blitzing him either with an attack or the candy beam? Are we also to believe SSJ Vegeta > Super Buu in that moment? You've already established that "not stopping someone = being weaker than someone", so why not? 😛

Kid Buu blew up the planet without resistance at a time Goku and Vegeta still believed they were stronger than him. Semi-Perfect Cell nearly destroyed the planet despite the presence of an astronomically more powerful SSJ2 Gohan and would've succeeded if not for Goku's intervention. Frieza destroyed the earth in one move despite the presence of massively more powerful SSJB Vegeta right in front of him. If all Goku has to do to win is hit the ground with a blast even Saiyan Saga Vegeta could muster up, he wins this fight easily.

Saying the kids are 50x stronger than Base Goku is glorified fanfic BS btw as it's implying without justification that Buu saga Base Goku = Base Goten and Trunks. Prove it. That's horsesh-t even by your own logic.

Lets see some proof for that. Even by your own logic, Base Goku > Base Vegeta > Shen >>> Piccolo > Base Goten. And the difference between shen and Base Vegeta would have to be substantial for Shen to think they needed to gang up on the likes of Pui Pui. NOW they're nigh-equal all of the sudden?!?! 😂

One warp kamehameha would decimate these two brats simultaneously, never-mind a warp kiezen. And that's without any Taiyōken or After-image spam in conjunction. The boys lack of regen-hax, general competence and experience makes Goku's skillset enough to bridge any stipulated strength gap.

> Accuses me of arguing with fanfic
> Directly quotes a fanfic to disprove my canon scans

Dude, anyone with a brain can see how idiotic you're being, so this whole argument has lost my interest.

1. I never quoted the Daizenshuu. IOW's, Goten is just as strong as Gohan, and Trunks is slightly stronger than that. Gohan remains superior ONLY because of SSJ2, which the boys don't have access to during the Buu saga.

2. I also never said that Base Vegeta > Shen. I said that SSJ Vegeta > Shen, which is obvious. Piccolo is stronger than noob SSJ's like Goku during the Frieza saga. He is NOT stronger than MSSJ's like Gohan, Goten, Trunks, etc. Stop putting words in my mouth, in a futile attempt to make your own argument seem less retarded. 👇

3. It's a little different for Super Buu to fail at stopping Vegeta, when he was terrified by the premise of ceasing to exist entirely, than it is for Piccolo to fail to catch two SSJ children who were flying into a death trap that Piccolo could have saved them from, simply by grabbing them. If he was strong enough to stop them, that is.

4. And? Lol, it doesn't matter how weak Vegeta and Goku thought Kid Buu was. Kid Buu was much stronger than them, and Vegeta DID manage to stop his first planet buster. The giant one was too big and strong for them to stop, plain and simple.

5. Even if Goku in base form was 10X stronger than Goten and Trunks in base form, they'd still stomp him in SSJ1. I'm using base form as a measuring stick, considering the fact that all the base Saiyan's are weaker than Piccolo, and they're all stronger than him in SSJ1. They're close to the same level, meaning none of them are over 2X stronger than the others, baring extra forms. Same way SSJ2 Gohan effortlessly stomped Perfect Cell despite being less than twice as strong as him.

6. Again, the boys would absolutely trash base Goku, as SSJ1's. I have proven this multiple times, in multiple ways. To recap: a. Gohan is = Goten and Gohan was at least 1/2 as strong as Goku in base. SSJ1 is 50X base, meaning even if Goku was twice as strong as Gohan, Trunks as a SSJ1 would be more than 25X stronger than base Goku, b. SSJ1 Gohan lifted the Z-sword while Kibito and Shen could not. SSJ1 Gohan ~ SSJ1 Goten, therefor SSJ1 Goten > Shen >>> Piccolo, c. Piccolo himself was shocked by the strength of the boys multiple times, and was even unable to stop them from attacking Buu. If he was stronger than them, he would have flown up and grabbed them, and knocked them out, like Majin Vegeta did. That simple.

Go on, fabricate another argument for me that you can respond to. It's a very unique form of debate, and I have to hand it to you- I didn't think you could be as big of an idiot/troll as you're proving to be. Bravo. 🙄

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
> Accuses me of arguing with fanfic

> Directly quotes a fanfic to disprove my canon scans

1. I never quoted the Daizenshuu. IOW's, Goten is just as strong as Gohan, and Trunks is slightly stronger than that. Gohan remains superior ONLY because of SSJ2, which the boys don't have access to during the Buu saga.

2. I also never said that Base Vegeta > Shen.

3. It's a little different for Super Buu to fail at stopping Vegeta, when he was terrified by the premise of ceasing to exist entirely, than it is for Piccolo to fail to catch two SSJ children who were flying into a death trap that Piccolo could have saved them from, simply by grabbing them. If he was strong enough to stop them, that is.

Similarly, perhaps Piccolo, having sensed Buu's overwhelming power, experienced similar fright and figured that jumping in to try and stop both boys might get himself killed as well. Either way, just because character A doesn't take immediate action to stop character B from doing something character A doesn't like does not mean that Character B > Character A in power. As you demonstrated so splendidly with Buu, there can be independent reasons for Character A's inaction.

4. And? Lol, it doesn't matter how weak Vegeta and Goku thought Kid Buu was. Kid Buu was much stronger than them, and Vegeta DID manage to stop his first planet buster. The giant one was too big and strong for them to stop, plain and simple.

5. Even if Goku in base form was 10X stronger than Goten and Trunks in base form, they'd still stomp him in SSJ1.

Even 2X strength is enough to minimize the strength gap and make Goku's hax techniques that much more deadly.

They're close to the same level, meaning none of them are over 2X stronger than the others, baring extra forms. Same way SSJ2 Gohan effortlessly stomped Perfect Cell despite being less than twice as strong as him

6. Again, the boys would absolutely trash base Goku, as SSJ1's. I have proven this multiple times, in multiple ways.

Go on, fabricate another argument for me that you can respond to. It's a very unique form of debate, and I have to hand it to you- I didn't think you could be as big of an idiot/troll as you're proving to be. Bravo. 🙄