Base Goku vs SSJ Goten and Trunks

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, you just got done pointing out that Goku himself isn't as strong as Frieza in base, so hopefully we can agree that Tarble's comparison was garbage.

What's more important is, regardless of how strong Abo Cado actually turned out to be, Goku considered a Frieza-level opponent to be about right the kids.

The manga(which was directly overseen by Toriyama) makes it clear that Tarble was using FIRST form Freeza as a reference for Abo & Kado's level of power:

...Which makes sense, as Tarble wouldn't have even known that Freeza had any higher transformations -- only a select few beings in the universe were privy to that knowledge.

And in the manga, once Goku hears A&K are on par with [first form] Freeza, he simply remarks that the boys will "be fine":

...Which also makes sense, because a PL of ~530,000 would be absolutely nothing to the boys. That's why they were able to stomp the bejesus out of A&K in their BASE levels... without even having to power up in their BASE levels.

As mentioned, the only 'issues' the boys had in that fight stemmed from their fighting skills becoming rusty in peaceful times -- but those issues were easily corrected with a bit of verbal coaching from the adults.

Originally posted by Galan007
The manga(which was directly overseen by Toriyama)

Never seen it. Do you have a link?

makes it clear that Tarble was using FIRST form Freeza as a reference for Abo & Kado's level of power:

...Which makes sense, as Tarble wouldn't have even known that Freeza had any higher transformations -- only a select few beings in the universe were privy to that knowledge.

Yes, which is why I'm not lending any weight to Tarble's estimation of Frieza's (or AboCado's) power.

And in the manga, once Goku hears A&K are on par with [first form] Freeza,

No, that's just it. He doesn't hear that. He hears that Abo and Cado are as strong as Frieza. To begin with, he's only ever met Frieza in his fourth form, so there's no reason at all for him to assume that they were talking about a suppressed Frieza.

As for whether he says "the kids will be fine," or "that's perfect for the kids," well, that's a matter of translation. I have no way of knowing if one is more credible than the other without seeing the raws.

You're trying to nitpick at this point. srsly

Tarble couldn't have been referencing anyone but FIRST form Freeza, because he didn't even know that Freeza had additional transformations(why else do you think FIRST form Freeza was recollected in Tarble's flashback in the page I posted above..?) Therefore, THAT is roughly how powerful he estimated Abo and Kado to be. Period.

Also, he may not have *fought* first form Freeza, but Goku *did* sense his ki shortly after arriving on Namek:

So like I said: Opinions aside, all *evidence* points to FIRST form Freeza being the comparison for A&K... Which makes a LOT more sense, given how easily the boys thrashed them. 🙂

So when Goku says, "Frieza... in retrospect, not much of a foe" he's not talking about the Frieza he fought, but the Frieza that he briefly noticed from afar. Seems legit.

From a logical standpoint Goku was referencing Freeza at the SAME level Tarble referenced: FIRST form. Why on earth would he bring up a form/power that Tarble didn't even know existed, lol?

That statement proves nothing, tbh -- NO version/form of Freeza was "much of a foe" to Goku at that point(he could go SSJ3, for gods sake.) Seems like you're trying really hard to contort the scene to match personal views, whilst not acknowledging any of the *actual* evidence I've mentioned. Doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

Originally posted by Galan007
From a logical standpoint Goku was referencing Freeza at the SAME level Tarble referenced: FIRST form. Why on earth would he bring up a form/power that Tarble didn't even know existed, lol?

Vegeta saying it would have made more sense, since he knew that nobody had any idea about Freeza's forms. Cause for all Goku knows is Freeza looked like that the whole time and never transformed.

Again, the scene's intent is crystal clear... Like it or not, the evidence really can't be ignored:

1.) FIRST form Freeza was explicitly shown in the flashback when Tarble recalled his defeat/death on Namek.

2.) Tarble didn't even know that Freeza had any higher transformations, and/or levels of power(not even Vegeta was privy to this information until Zarbon spilled the beans on Namek.) So as far as Tarble knew, Freeza's FIRST form *was* his peak.

3.) The above being said, Tarble literally couldn't have been comparing Abo and Kado to anything but FIRST form Freeza.

4.) What first form Freeza looked like is irrelevant -- it's all about the level of ki each of his forms generated... And Goku was very much aware of the ki that each of his forms possessed(remember, he was still sensing the entire battle with Freeza whilst in the regeneration tank.)

5.) Goku's vague/ambiguous statement that Freeza "isn't much of an opponent now" doesn't prove anything. Goku was capable of going SSJ3 at that point(the film takes place AFTER the Boo saga, remember) -- Freeza "wasn't much" to him any way you slice it.

6.) A&K being on par with FIRST form Freeza makes a LOT more sense, considering the boys were able to easily trounce them in their BASE levels...without even having to power up in their BASE levels(nevermind transform into SSJ.) A PL around 530,000 would obviously be nothing to them at base.

7.) Given that A&K were portrayed as laughably inept feebs, it makes a LOT more sense for them to have increased their PLs from Ginyu Force-level(between 30-40k), to FIRST form Freeza-level(~530k) in the 4 years between the Namek saga and the events of this film. The other alternative is that these idiotic buffoons somehow went from 30-40k, to FINAL form Freeza-level(~120,000,000) in 4 years. Bias aside, which do you think is honestly more likely given their characterization? srsly

*On a sidenote, I believe that Goku DID know what FIRST form Freeza looked like... Remember when he arrived on Namek and pulled that random TP ability out of his ass that was never used/mentioned again? With it, Goku was able to instantly read Krillin's thoughts -- essentially seeing/feeling everything Krillin had experienced on Namek(and FIRST form Freeza was obviously one of those things):

4 years?

And I was just talking about how dumb Goku is. Not caring what form he was talking about, because BoG arc makes it that Base Goku isn't > Final Form Freeza. So therefore Base Goten and Trunks can't be > Final Form Freeza because Base Goku > Base Goten and Trunks.

Originally posted by Kento
4 years?

And I was just talking about how dumb Goku is. Not caring what form he was talking about, because BoG arc makes it that Base Goku isn't > Final Form Freeza. So therefore Base Goten and Trunks can't be > Final Form Freeza because Base Goku > Base Goten and Trunks.

Yeah, I agree. Hence FIRST form Freeza is the only logical answer. 😛

XD I mean, besides 4th Form Freeza, it doesn't matter which form, Base Goten and Trunks win.

Goku and the Z fighters still use tp.

Originally posted by Kento
XD I mean, besides 4th Form Freeza, it doesn't matter which form, Base Goten and Trunks win.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, the scene's intent is crystal clear... Like it or not, the evidence really can't be ignored:

1.) FIRST form Freeza was explicitly shown in the flashback when Tarble recalled his defeat/death on Namek.

2.) Tarble didn't even know that Freeza had any higher transformations, and/or levels of power(not even Vegeta was privy to this information until Zarbon spilled the beans on Namek.) So as far as Tarble knew, Freeza's FIRST form *was* his peak.

3.) The above being said, Tarble literally couldn't have been comparing Abo and Kado to anything but FIRST form Freeza.

4.) What first form Freeza looked like is irrelevant -- it's all about the level of ki each of his forms generated... And Goku was very much aware of the ki that each of his forms possessed(remember, he was still sensing the entire battle with Freeza whilst in the regeneration tank.)

5.) Goku's vague/ambiguous statement that Freeza "isn't much of an opponent now" doesn't prove anything. Goku was capable of going SSJ3 at that point(the film takes place AFTER the Boo saga, remember) -- Freeza "wasn't much" to him any way you slice it.

6.) A&K being on par with FIRST form Freeza makes a LOT more sense, considering the boys were able to easily trounce them in their BASE levels...without even having to power up in their BASE levels(nevermind transform into SSJ.) A PL around 530,000 would obviously be nothing to them at base.

7.) Given that A&K were portrayed as laughably inept feebs, it makes a LOT more sense for them to have increased their PLs from Ginyu Force-level(between 30-40k), to FIRST form Freeza-level(~530k) in the 4 years between the Namek saga and the events of this film. The other alternative is that these idiotic buffoons somehow went from 30-40k, to FINAL form Freeza-level(~120,000,000) in 4 years. Bias aside, which do you think is honestly more likely given their characterization? srsly

*On a sidenote, I believe that Goku DID know what FIRST form Freeza looked like... Remember when he arrived on Namek and pulled that random TP ability out of his ass that was never used/mentioned again? With it, Goku was able to instantly read Krillin's thoughts -- essentially seeing/feeling everything Krillin had experienced on Namek(and FIRST form Freeza was obviously one of those things):

What I don't think you're considering is that both statements could be true. Goku had never met First form Frieza himself, and obviously was thinking of Final form. While Tarble said they had gotten stronger than Frieza, he could have meant first form, sure. But Final form is also stronger than first form. In all actuality, Tarble could have been saying they had gotten vastly stronger than Frieza, and Goku himself could have pinned that to around final form Frieza level.

I think the intents were very different than what you're thinking, and I have to side with Kento on this one.

IMO, they were trying to show that the boys were stronger than Frieza. That's all. Goku said Frieza wasn't much of a foe in hindsight, and that such a level was perfect for the kids. It wouldn't have made much sense for him to say that, in reference to a form of Frieza that he never met and had only felt the power level of once, from inside a healing chamber while barely conscious.

He literally had to be talking about Final form Frieza, even IF Tarble was referring to First form. After all, Final form IS stronger than first form, lol. This doesn't make either of them incorrect, where as your perception of this would involve Goku somehow having an Eidetic memory when he is notoriously known for having a bad memory, especially for faces and names. It's far more likely that he only remembered Final form Frieza, and probably even more likely that he didn't even remember Frieza having other forms in the first place, lol.

My point is that your analysis of this scene is assuming Goku is some intellectual that has a strong grasp on knowledge and the fact that Tarble doesn't know Frieza had other forms, as well as being able to remember everything about each of Frieza's forms, even though he hadn't encountered any but one of them, which happened DECADES ago.

It's far more reasonable to assume that Goku meant Final form Frieza, and that his analysis was more accurate given that Tarble couldn't even sense ki without a scouter in the first place. Goku can, and even with a scouter, it wouldn't have been able to read Frieza's power before exploding, lol.

That's just it: even though Goku DID feel the ki of FIRST form Freeza(AND use TP to gain the same familiarity with him that Krillin had), the specific version that *he* was referencing is ultimately irrelevant -- you are just trying to nitpick an extremely ambiguous comment.

*Tarble's* statement is what matters here, because *Tarble* wouldn't have even known that Freeza had additional transformations... So given that FIRST form Freeza was his ONLY reference, logic dictates that Tarble MUST have been comparing Abo & Kado to THAT version, period... That's why FIRST form Freeza was explicitly shown in the flashback where Tarble recalled hearing news of Freeza's death on Namek(why in the hell is everyone ignoring this, lol?) Not sure why you'd think that Tarble was comparing A&K to a version of Freeza that he DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED, but I digress... ermm

And again, A&K each being on par with FIRST form Freeza certainly helps explain why the boys were able to casually trounce them in their BASE levels, without even having to increase their ki at all. Had A&K been on par with FINAL form Freeza, the boys trouncing them in their BASE levels simply wouldn't have been possible.

...But anyway, I find myself repeating the same facts, ad nauseum. So unless you have something new to bring to the table, I'm done here. No offense intended -- it's just boring at this point. 🙂

No, no, no, that's just it. Tarble's statement doesn't matter at all; he's clueless. Goku's thoughts on the matter, and his comparison of Goten/Trunks to Frieza, are the only things that matter here. And regardless of Tarble's ignorance, there's no reason to think Goku didn't have Frieza as he knew him in mind.

Wait, what..?

Tarble only knew about FIRST form Freeza. He compared A&K to HIM. Why on earth does that not matter, lol?

And again: Goku was quite familiar with FIRST form Freeza as well -- I've shown you why/how with definitive proof. Fact is, his comment in the film is wholly ambiguous and doesn't narrow anything down at all... The scene from the canon manga, however, makes a LOT more sense:

*That's the VIZ translation, btw.

Well Trunks and goten roflstomped avo and Cado like weaklings without powering up. So doesn't that kind of prove that Gokus dialogue in the movie was incorrect? because Avo and Cado obv. WEREN'T "perfect" for the kids. 😂

I agree with galen- Avo and cado were on the same level as frieza in his 1st form. everything points to that. plus theres just no damn way i can believe they were meant to be they same level as 100% frieza in his 4th form. ❌

Originally posted by Galan007
That's just it: even though Goku DID feel the ki of FIRST form Freeza(AND use TP to gain the same familiarity with him that Krillin had), the specific version that *he* was referencing is ultimately irrelevant -- you are just trying to nitpick an extremely ambiguous comment.

*Tarble's* statement is what matters here, because *Tarble* wouldn't have even known that Freeza had additional transformations... So given that FIRST form Freeza was his ONLY reference, logic dictates that Tarble MUST have been comparing Abo & Kado to THAT version, period... That's why FIRST form Freeza was explicitly shown in the flashback where Tarble recalled hearing news of Freeza's death on Namek(why in the hell is everyone ignoring this, lol?) Not sure why you'd think that Tarble was comparing A&K to a version of Freeza that he DIDN'T EVEN KNOW EXISTED, but I digress... ermm

And again, A&K each being on par with FIRST form Freeza certainly helps explain why the boys were able to casually trounce them in their BASE levels, without even having to increase their ki at all. Had A&K been on par with FINAL form Freeza, the boys trouncing them in their BASE levels simply wouldn't have been possible.

...But anyway, I find myself repeating the same facts, ad nauseum. So unless you have something new to bring to the table, I'm done here. No offense intended -- it's just boring at this point. 🙂

You literally just ignored my entire argument.

I'll repeat myself- Goku had only met final form Frieza, and was therefor referring to him in final form. Tarble only knew about first form Frieza, therefor was referring to him in first form. THIS DOES NOT MAKE EITHER A CONTRADICTION.

Tarble said Abo and Kado were stronger than Frieza. Even if Goku was referring to Final form Frieza, this doesn't devalue Tarble's statement, SINCE FINAL FORM FRIEZA IS STRONGER THAN FIRST FORM FRIEZA.

Any way you slice it, the only assumption we can make on the context of the situation where Goku and Tarble aren't both completely retarded, is the one I'm proposing, where they're both right.

I'm not sure why you're so stuck on the idea that Tarble shouldn't know of Frieza's other forms, when it doesn't really even matter in the first place.

Originally posted by Galan007
arble only knew about FIRST form Freeza. He compared A&K to HIM. Why on earth does that not matter, lol?

Because how strong Tarble thinks Abo and Cado are is irrelevant. All that matters is how strong Goku thinks the kids are. Period.

And again: Goku was quite familiar with FIRST form Freeza as well

The fact that he's technically aware of Frieza's first form doesn't mean when someone says "Frieza" that's what he thinks of by default, dude.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because how strong Tarble thinks Abo and Cado are is irrelevant. All that matters is how strong Goku thinks the kids are. Period.

It's also worth noting that *only* Freeza's FIRST form(PL=530,000) could be numerically measured/read on a scouter(which he was happy to tell any would-be opponent: 530,000.) The rest of his transformations were beyond a scouter's ability to read...
https://i.imgur.com/N4reOAE.jpg
2nd Form Freeza: "IF any instrument could read my strength..."

Guess what? Tarble couldn't sense ki, and explicitly relied on scouters to read his opponents' PL. So unless you think he had a super-duper upgraded scouter that could inextricably read a PL of 120,000,000, then he would have NO way to even ballpark-compare A&K to final form Freeza... Even IF he knew about Freeza's other transformations.

FIRST form Freeza was Tarble's ONLY point of reference. From a logical standpoint, *that* is the level A&K were intended to be at. End of story.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The fact that he's technically aware of Frieza's first form doesn't mean when someone says "Frieza" that's what he thinks of by default, dude.

What's not computing here?