US Supreme Pizza Part II: Bake a Cake

Originally posted by Firefly218
The homophobe has a right to not make a cake for a gay couple, but lets not defend him too much or make him the victim.

Lets not forget that just a short while ago there were signs everywhere outside small businesses in the south which said NO BLACKS ALLOWED. The government has rightly taken those down.

I know, but this isn't saying gays aren't allowed. It's about what they wanted on the cake. I'm guessing if a straight couple had came and wanted a gay themed cake(or whatever) the guy would have also said no.

As for being the victim, eh. He's been painted as a bigot by a lot of people. As just an all around mean person. I certainly don't think any of that was deserved.

Originally posted by Firefly218
I'm sure the cake maker wasn't being asked to depict a dick going up another man's ass or sodomy or anything, just the same privileges as a straight couple.

Originally posted by Firefly218
What kind of custom cake would a straight couple ask for? Husband and wife holding hands or something? Why not husband and husband or wife and wife holding hands?

There's a difference between refusing to sell someone a product you would sell someone else, and refusing to make a product which is an artistic work that carries a message you don't agree with. It doesn't matter how objectionable the message is from the perspective of the general public, if you refuse to make a statement, regardless of how benign others would consider it, you should not be compelled at point of force to do it.

Again, if I were the baker I would've gladly made the gay couple the cake and told them "congratulations, I hope you have a nice wedding." I'm not opposed to homosexuality or gay marriage, I'm against compelled speech. This man was not violating this couple's life, liberty, or property by refusing to perform a work of artistic expression he did not agree with, and this is the man whose rights are being violated in this case, and I find that disgusting.

Originally posted by Firefly218
The homophobe has a right to not make a cake for a gay couple, but lets not defend him too much or make him the victim.

Originally posted by Surtur
^^It's like this guy is the second coming of Hitler.

CakeGate

Originally posted by Surtur
LMAO! Oh Rob, I will just assume you didn't see DDM's posts. Adam got slapped down something fierce.

Maybe, maybe not. I think AP and I agree about 90%. I was just riding his correction coattails.

Originally posted by Firefly218
So the same services that are offered to a straight couple are not being offered to a gay couple, which is textbook discrimination.

And if we allow a business to practice discrimination here, we must be consistent and allow discrimination EVERYWHERE in business.

#MAGA

I agree with you and this is a good post (except the MAGA hashtag).

Let business discriminate as much as they want. Let them be as racist, antitheistic, sexist, accepting, good, loving, wholesome as they want.

Let the customers and potential customers decide.

Originally posted by Firefly218
The homophobe has a right to not make a cake for a gay couple, but lets not defend him too much or make him the victim.

Lets not forget that just a short while ago there were signs everywhere outside small businesses in the south which said NO BLACKS ALLOWED. The government has rightly taken those down.

Well, that first sentence, that's where I lose you. The gay couple is NOT a victim. He is most certainly a victim of harassment and death threats, however. It's utterly ridiculous to force someone else to operate against their religious beliefs by forcing them to do art for you. If I walk into a business and they turn me away because I'm white, I'd take my business elsewhere while flipping them off, farting, or something else immature. But I wouldn't be victim.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree with you and this is a good post (except the MAGA hashtag).

Let business discriminate as much as they want. Let them be as racist, antitheistic, sexist, accepting, good, loving, wholesome as they want.

Let the customers and potential customers decide.

Except there must be certain ground rules and government regulations that prevent small businesses all across the south from putting up NO BLACKS ALLOWED signs or preventing what happened all across Europe with the NO JEWS ALLOWED signs and crap like that. Discrimination has its limits.

So it's ok for small businesses in other parts of the country to put up "no blacks allowed" signs?

Originally posted by Silent Master
So it's ok for small businesses in other parts of the country to put up "no blacks allowed" signs?

Didn't realize that was a difficult question, take all the time you need.

Originally posted by Firefly218
Exactly, that's what the free market is all about.

Except there must be certain ground rules and government regulations that prevent small businesses all across the south from putting up NO BLACKS ALLOWED signs or preventing what happened all across Europe with the NO JEWS ALLOWED signs and crap like that. Discrimination has its limits.

I disagree. I think businesses should get to discriminate. I don't want secret racists. I want them out in the open. I want to be able to go to Yelp or their website and know they are racist. So I can avoid giving them my business. 👆

Originally posted by Silent Master
Didn't realize that was a difficult question, take all the time you need.

haermm

I need to get on your level of condescension.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. I think businesses should get to discriminate. I don't want secret racists. I want them out in the open. I want to be able to go to Yelp or their website and know they are racist. So I can avoid giving them my business. 👆

Originally posted by Firefly218
But not everyone is as moral as you are. If that kind of discrimination is allowed, I gaurentee you there'd be entire towns which bar people of color.

But, that's perfectly okay to me, dude.

Do you think I'd ever want to visit a town like that? Let them gather together and group up. Keeps them closer together and not sprinkled throughout the population.

Trump won partly because of the secret Trumpers. I suspect that some of them are racists. Closet racists.

For me, I understand that freedom comes with bad and good. I also think that many Americans would boycott super racist businesses. I feel we live in a different time. This is why Obama won in 2008, IMO. There's still racism but they are a very small vocal minority, in my opinion.

Originally posted by dadudemon
But, that's perfectly okay to me, dude.

Do you think I'd ever want to visit a town like that?

I get your overall point, but it seems short-sighted and mostly formed from a position of privilege (wow, I've never said that before. I think I finally get it).

Originally posted by Scribble
You don't have to visit a town like that. But people of colour who live there kind of like, do. Or people of colour who end up there whilst travelling cross-country, being denied food, drink and board. Denying things such as those goes beyond the idea of a free market and travels into human rights violations.

I get your overall point, but it seems short-sighted and mostly formed from a position of privilege (wow, I've never said that before. I think I finally get it).

Originally posted by Scribble
You don't have to visit a town like that. But people of colour who live there kind of like, do. Or people of colour who end up there whilst travelling cross-country, being denied food, drink and board. Denying things such as those goes beyond the idea of a free market and travels into human rights violations.

I get your overall point, but it seems short-sighted and mostly formed from a position of privilege (wow, I've never said that before. I think I finally get it).

I'm okay with all those negatives you said. They do not change my position. In fact, thinking more about it, it doesn't seem as bad as you make it out to be.

Probably none of the scenarios you describe would ever happen. This is not 1850. It just would not happen. I've been to poor countries where the people were so poor that they lived in straw huts. They still had smart phones. If they can't avoid a known racist town and get super hungry, while traveling, looks like they will just travel to the next town?

You do realize that these racist towns exist, right? They already exist. But none of this stuff you describe happens in them.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm okay with all those negatives you said. They do not change my position. In fact, thinking more about it, it doesn't seem as bad as you make it out to be.

Probably none of the scenarios you describe would ever happen. This is not 1850. It just would not happen. I've been to poor countries where the people were so poor that they lived in straw huts. They still had smart phones. If they can't avoid a known racist town and get super hungry, while traveling, looks like they will just travel to the next town?

You do realize that these racist towns exist, right? They already exist. But none of this stuff you describe happens in them.

I personally just wouldn't want to live in a country where humans rights violations were allowed to happen because of some misguided sense of 'freedom', a sense of freedom that ignores many other people's freedom to have basic access to the things humans need to survive.

Like, imagine being in a country with laws like you've described, but one where white people are frequently discriminated in in such a way. You live there, and you're travelling. It's a big place. You're tired, you're hungry, you just want a burger and a coffee to keep you on the road. The smartphone GPS has no info for the town you're travelling through, so you have to hope for the best. You're denied entrance to every shop, so no burger. No coffee places open to 'your kind' either. Well, better find a motel. Except all the nearby motels have the sign "No whites, no dogs" in the window. So you have to park in some run-down parking lot and sleep rough in the back seat. Good thing you didn't have the kids with you.

But hey, thank god for freedom.

Yes, I know. This is total, unabashed pathos. I know. But sometimes a bit of pathos can put things in perspective.