Originally posted by Firefly218
So if a gay person asks for a Spider-Man cake they can be refused because it falls within the boundaries of artistic expression?
Question, let us say your name is John Smith and you own a bakery and I come in and say I want a cake. On the cake I want you to write "John Smith is a poopyhead".
Should you be forced to make the cake if you do not want to?
Originally posted by EmperordmbSee this is where you lose me. I agree with you that the man shouldn’t be forced to endorse homosexuality, but in what way is a Spider-Man cake an endorsement of homosexuality?
Yes.
Now it’s no longer about the message and it’s about the person. Gay people can be refused any service for reasons that have nothing to do with the service itself. That’s just unfair.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Alliance Defending Freedom is an anti-LGBT hate group that supports the criminalization of homosexuality and the sterilization of trans people, links homosexuality to pedophilia, and claims the "homosexual agenda" will destroy Christianity and society—and you are an ******* for citing them, let alone suggesting they are impartial.
So what? Who cares what you think about the source: facts don't care about your feelings. It has the same information as other sources that I used to put the facts out there. Notice there's more than just the video to review in that post to cover the facts?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It is despicable that he did not report the alleged death threats to the police, but he did report them to conservative media to advertise his crowd-funding initiative, which has raised nearly $4-million.
Wonderful. Hopefully, that money will keep him and his family afloat until he can get business running fully.
And do you have a source about him not reporting the death threats to the police? Seems they are definitely part of this case and have been discussed in court (transcripts). So your point is empty grandstanding at best and false, at worst.
Look, I know you're emotionally invested in destroying everything there possibly could be regarding this case because you're a gay man and you'd want to punch assholes like this in the face for telling you they won't make a gay cake for you at your wedding (as I pointed out, I'd fart in their general direction or some other immature thing before walking out if I was in this position). You want to just walk into any business and not have to worry about someone turning you away because of the person you choose to put your penis in. But that's not the case nor is it reality. I'm sure you've realized this but assholes exist and you're going to be offended sometimes. Instead of trying to force people to think, act, and feel how you believe they should, accept the reality that there are shit people.
Originally posted by Firefly218
If a gay couple asks for a cake that is normal and not gay themed, does the cake maker then have a right to refuse service?
Yes. And they should have the right to refuse business to a Native American or Black person, too. I believe people should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. 👆
Originally posted by SurturNo I agree with you, I shouldn’t be forced to endorse a message I don’t agree with. But if a gay person and a straight person both ask for the same exact cake, then my standards shouldn’t change. I shouldn’t sell a Spider-Man cake to the straight person but refuse to sell a Spider-Man cake to the gay person
Question, let us say your name is John Smith and you own a bakery and I come in and say I want a cake. On the cake I want you to write "John Smith is a poopyhead".Should you be forced to make the cake if you do not want to?
Originally posted by Firefly218
I like this quote from Shahed Amanullah"Tired of people invoking Muslims in the same-sex wedding cake case. Muslims regularly sell you alcohol, drive you home when you’re drunk, and open their hotels to unmarried couples without imposing their beliefs on you."
I like these kinds of Muslims.
Originally posted by dadudemonSo now pharmacies have the right to refuse gay people, dentists have the right to refuse gay people, insurance companies have the right to refuse gay people, apartment complexes have the right to refuse gay people. Where does it end? Government exists to protect the rights of people regardless of their race, religion, or sexuality. There’s nothing wrong with a little government regulation on this matter imo
Yes. And they should have the right to refuse business to a Native American or Black person, too. I believe people should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. 👆
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I thought he was just selling a normal cake?
No, he offered normal cakes. He refused making a custom-themed gay wedding cake.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
By all means, identify the message the couple requested to which the baker objected. According to the court documents, the request was denied within 20 seconds of being asked. The couple said they would like to order a wedding cake, and the baker denied the request, saying he does not make wedding cakes for gay couples. There was no discussion of details of the cake.
Court Docs:
Originally posted by dadudemon
4. If this was simply a "regular wedding" cake, then there would not be the need to ask him for the custom cake, which is what was refused. If this was a regular cake, then they could have selected from any of the other non-custom cakes for their occasion. What he refused was to apply his artistic talents to a gay-wedding cake.In Jack's own words (with me adding numbers to correspond to the points):
“Though I serve everyone who comes into my shop, like many other creative professionals, I don’t create custom designs for events or messages that conflict with my conscience. I don’t create cakes that celebrate Halloween, promote sexual or anti-American themes, or disparage people, including individuals who identify as LGBT[2]. For me, it’s never about the person making the request. It’s about the message the person wants the cake to communicate.“I am here at the Supreme Court today because I respectfully declined to create a custom cake that would celebrate a view of marriage in direct conflict with my faith’s core teachings on marriage. [1]I offered to sell the two gentlemen suing me anything else in my shop or to design a cake for them for another occasion[3][4].
Originally posted by Surtur
Question, let us say your name is John Smith and you own a bakery and I come in and say I want a cake. On the cake I want you to write "John Smith is a poopyhead".Should you be forced to make the cake if you do not want to?
That isn't discrimination in the same way that, say, Dadudemon's example absolutely 100% is.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes. And they should have the right to refuse business to a Native American or Black person, too. I believe people should have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. 👆
Should a bus driver be able to tell a black person they can't get on? Or a cab driver? Should a doctor be able to refuse to administer to a Jew? Or to save their lives purely for racist reasons? Should a vet let your pet get sick because kiss dudes?
Originally posted by Firefly218
No I agree with you, I shouldn’t be forced to endorse a message I don’t agree with. But if a gay person and a straight person both ask for the same exact cake, then my standards shouldn’t change. I shouldn’t sell a Spider-Man cake to the straight person but refuse to sell a Spider-Man cake to the gay person
Indeed, and like I said before I don't think the baker would be willing to sell a "gay" themed cake to a straight couple either.
Thus both straight and gay couples would lack the option to get him to create a custom cake that goes against his beliefs.
Jesus: Hey guys, stop attacking this prostitute just because you think shes impure. Also be nice to the Romans even as they brutally slaughter and oppress you. Help others even if your countries are at war. Oh and BTW Dad, I know these guys literally just murdered me, but please forgive them anyway.
Christians: FVCK YOU GAY CAKES R THE DEVIL! DISCRIMINATION 4EVAR!
Originally posted by SurturThat's fine then, but the custom cake did not go against his beliefs. The people went against his beliefs.
Indeed, and like I said before I don't think the baker would be willing to sell a "gay" themed cake to a straight couple either.Thus both straight and gay couples would lack the option to get him to create a custom cake that goes against his beliefs.
Here's a statement from the cake makers lawyers
"He will not create cakes celebrating any marriage that is contrary to his understanding of Biblical teaching"
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-wedding-cake-20171205-story.html
According to his own statement, he will simply not make cakes for gay marriages. That means even if a gay couple ask for a straight-themed cake, this guy is unwilling to cooperate. Which is bigoted.
Originally posted by Firefly218
That's fine then, but the custom cake did not go against his beliefs. The people went against his beliefs.Here's a statement from the cake makers lawyers
"He will not create cakes celebrating any marriage that is contrary to his understanding of Biblical teaching"
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-wedding-cake-20171205-story.html
According to his own statement, he will simply not make cakes for gay marriages. That means even if a gay couple ask for a straight-themed cake, this guy is unwilling to cooperate. Which is bigoted.
Lol, what? The quote you just gave does not give any hint of what you then claim. Why wouldn't he sell a gay couple a "straight" themed cake? A straight themed cake would not be celebrating gay marriage.
Originally posted by SurturA gay marriage can be celebrated with a cake that doesn't have an overtly gay theme can't it? Just a cake with flowers or hearts or a plain white cake?
Lol, what? The quote you just gave does not give any hint of what you then claim. Why wouldn't he sell a gay couple a "straight" themed cake? A straight themed cake would not be celebrating gay marriage.
The cake maker simply says he will not make ANY cake, regardless of artistic expression, that is used in a celebration by gay people. This means it's not about the artistic expression and is instead about him not wanting to serve gay people.
Originally posted by Firefly218
A gay marriage can be celebrated with a cake that doesn't have an overtly gay theme can't it? Just a cake with flowers or hearts or a plain white cake?The cake maker simply says he will not make [B]ANY
cake, regardless of artistic expression, that is used in a celebration by gay people. This means it's not about the artistic expression and is instead about him not wanting to serve gay people. [/B]
The quote you gave says he will not create cakes celebrating marriage that are contrary to his understanding of biblical teaching. You then say he will not make a straight themed cake for a gay couple. How does that track? A "straight themed cake" as you put it...would not be about gay marriage, hence it being "straight themed". Gay marriage is not being celebrating in a straight themed cake, no matter who orders the cake.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Jesus: Hey guys, stop attacking this prostitute just because you think shes impure. Also be nice to the Romans even as they brutally slaughter and oppress you. Help others even if your countries are at war. Oh and BTW Dad, I know these guys literally just murdered me, but please forgive them anyway.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Christians: FVCK YOU GAY CAKES R THE DEVIL! DISCRIMINATION 4EVAR!