Originally posted by Digi
Examples of these "much less significant" threats he's failed to solo? Any time he's given a normal shot at a fight, he usually destroys the big bads.
But really, if you and others disagree and post 'Doctor solos' thats fine.
It being my thread though, i'm just chucking those posts in the Shit pile, as they arent of interest to me.
Originally posted by riv6672
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Authority_(Wildstorm_Universe)But really, if you and others disagree and post 'Doctor solos' thats fine.
It being my thread though, i'm just chucking those posts in the Shit pile, as they arent of interest to me.
Some are posting that. I'm quite sure I'm not, though. On balance, a link to their wiki is far lazier than the examples I've been giving. My question wasn't sarcasm; I have a really good memory for Authority showings, and am struggling to remember times where Doctor straight up failed to take someone out who was roughly Orion's level, or at least any that didn't involve massive contextual caveats. But that doesn't mean they don't exist, so I was asking for examples. If a Wiki link with plots but few feats is your response, though, I think we're probably near the end of that discussion.
/srug
From my recall Jeroen only ever struggled against people explicitly prepped against him. The fight vs the Evil Doctor is proof of his powers being vastly superior than those of the rest of the team. I don't understand what's the point of undermining the fact he's obviously more powerful than Orion has shown to be (as his "true form" is mostly theoretical as far as i recall).
Is Jeroen considered so much of a goofball than Orion would caught him off guard and beat him at some point? That idea rolls over the fact the rest o the Authority is there to pick off the slack and that permanently putting down Jeroen is not as simple as it sounds. If anything I can't see how that argument would achieve more than giving an Orion a tiny minority win 1/10.
Originally posted by Bentley
From my recall Jeroen only ever struggled against people explicitly prepped against him. The fight vs the Evil Doctor is proof of his powers being vastly superior than those of the rest of the team. I don't understand what's the point of undermining the fact he's obviously more powerful than Orion has shown to be (as his "true form" is mostly theoretical as far as i recall).Is Jeroen considered so much of a goofball than Orion would caught him off guard and beat him at some point? That idea rolls over the fact the rest o the Authority is there to pick off the slack and that permanently putting down Jeroen is not as simple as it sounds. If anything I can't see how that argument would achieve more than giving an Orion a tiny minority win 1/10.
Lol. Yeah, I mean, if everyone's in character, there's a non-trivial chance Jeroen shows up with vomit on his shirt and is only half-aware of where he is. His drug use always got too much attention - he was sober after the first few arcs, with only one late exception I can think of. But if we grant CIS of that nature, sure, I'd be good with this assessment.
Originally posted by riv6672😂
But really, if you and others disagree and post 'Doctor solos' thats fine.
It being my thread though, i'm just chucking those posts in the Shit pile, as they arent of interest to me.
If you're out to troll without reading a comic, you can do that anywhere, not just in your own threads.
Originally posted by Smurph
😂If you're out to troll without reading a comic, you can do that anywhere, not just in your own threads.
I dont think its so much as trolling as riv just legit doesnt read up on most characters and he seems genuinely upset when his threads get prematurely shut down...like Digimark just did.
The WS/DC Crossover arc was a good portrayal of the Doctor (and yes, I realize it wasn't technically canon for the DC side). There's the entire Authority and others, along with the entire Justice League (created by a high-level reality warper, and presumably at or near their actual power levels), and they're running around fighting and such. Meanwhile, the Doctor is in the warper's pocket dimension trying to see if he can save the whole universe by talking the kid down or - failing that - seeing if he's able to match the kid in power to take him out. If he wasn't able to do either, that was game over for the entire lot. It was a believable, thoughtful way of removing him from conflicts that he had no business in, while Apollo, Superman and the rest did their hero thing to keep things floating while the Doctor solved the higher-level problem. Ellis did a nice job with Doctor's initial characterization, but even he wasn't able to escape the power issue, which is why the times where he is used best are those when he's involved in more esoteric struggles.
For another lol-worthy example, there's the moment in Cpt. Atom's arc where the Doctor asks Jack if he should go in to end the fight between Apollo and Cpt. Atom, with the same urgency that he'd ask if they needed eggs from the store. It's the same arc where he freezes Majestic effortlessly. Jack's response is that he wants Apollo and MNer to have their fun, so no, don't go. it was one of Apollo's better showings to be shown as equal to Atom, but it also served to show how much of a different level the Doctor was on. Or after that arc when Doctor detects that the whole universe was recently recreated, and Jackson asks him who has that kind of power. His response: "Me. But I spoke with my predecessor. He wasn't involved at the time."
High-level lip service without feats is one thing. But he has them. Bolstering Orion's rep is fine, he's a powerful character. But any opinion that doesn't end with Doctor beating him is woefully lopsided in interpretation.
lol 😊
Originally posted by Sin I AM
I dont think its so much as trolling as riv just legit doesnt read up on most characters and he seems genuinely upset when his threads get prematurely shut down...like Digimark just did.
I love a good chance to drop some Authority knowledge. And I don't necessarily think of it as "shutting down" threads. Aside from Zach and obvious bait threads, I think most are just genuinely curious, so I try to stay informational instead of combative. But since there's been numerous times where threads are made without full knowledge of the Authority, mismatches are frequent. This is actually much closer to a true match than many threads involving them, but it's still not in doubt.
Originally posted by Bentley
Digi, always The Doctor's fanboy.
Doesn't make me wrong, though. 😉
It's funny, I can ignore Spider-Man threads and so many others, not caring who's lowballing or any of that nonsense. Then an Authority thread pops up, and some vestige of college-age me resurfaces. It's like the only non-tourney debating I do on this site anymore.
The Authority is goddamn efficient, especially by super hero standards. They've killed their version of God and come back from some CRAZY circumstances. I could definitely see Orion soloing them though because he can basically rape their big guns. The Doctor is their only hope, he wins or losses the fight. Basically, if they know he's coming and what type of threat he is, they'll win. Just far too much team work and efficiency with the Doctor being able to prepare his mental state to fight such a foe.
On a random battle field? Orion is more durable than anything the Doctor has come across, even more so than Majestic. His power is potentially Universal in scale but he's still a drug addict who constantly finds ways to screw up and even he could have trouble warping Orion. Let's not forget, for all the crazy shit the Doctor has done, and he's done plenty, Orion is still a New God. Some interpretations have the Doctor being able to turn the Sun into an fruit basket but some comics would make you believe that Orion would be able to beat him into a coma with that same fruit basket. Logically the Doctor is far more powerful though.
As for the rest of the team? If they're not ready for him, he would run house through them and could basically one-shot the most of the team depending on how powerful the Astro-Force is that day. He's Seth on steroids. The next comic would be the Authority thoroughly decimating him because of all his flaws because that's the usual theme.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Authority is goddamn efficient, especially by super hero standards. They've killed their version of God and come back from some CRAZY circumstances. I could definitely see Orion soloing them though because he can basically rape their big guns. The Doctor is their only hope, he wins or losses the fight. Basically, if they know he's coming and what type of threat he is, they'll win. Just far too much team work and efficiency with the Doctor being able to prepare his mental state to fight such a foe.On a random battle field? Orion is more durable than anything the Doctor has come across, even more so than Majestic. His power is potentially Universal in scale but he's still a drug addict who constantly finds ways to screw up and even he could have trouble warping Orion. Let's not forget, for all the crazy shit the Doctor has done, and he's done plenty, Orion is still a New God. Some interpretations have the Doctor being able to turn the Sun into an fruit basket but some comics would make you believe that Orion would be able to beat him into a coma with that same fruit basket. Logically the Doctor is far more powerful though.
As for the rest of the team? He would run house through them and could basically one-shot the most of the team depending on how powerful the Astro-Force is that day. He's Seth on steroids.
Not a bad assessment, but I'd ask what "prepare his mental state" means. He's not Strange, needing time for anything. He just thinks and it happens, and he knows how to fight. That sounds to me like a fancy way of trying to get a foot in the door for a character who's overmatched. We assume reasonable use of powers, yeah? So his mental state is just fine.
Orion more durable than Majestic...agreed. But they're in the same league, yeah? The point is that the Doctor wasn't even trying, and wouldn't have had to against Cpt. Atom either. The Doctor was the only one within sniffing distance of the baddy in the arc with the whole Justice League. Giving Orion a slight durability edge over Majestic is throwing paper towels into a swimming pool to stop a child from drowning.
I've addressed the drug addiction. He was out for a couple fights, and sober for the rest. it's overblown. Most times he's removed through a plot device not tied to his character traits. I'd also request examples of "screwing up" in actual fights where he had his wits about him. You clearly know the team and what it's done, so that kind of nebulous statement is again begging for specifics. But unless we assume he actually shows up stoned to the fight - which I think we can all agree would be a laughable concession that he normally wins against Orion - then what's the argument for Orion here?
Originally posted by Digi
lol 😊I love a good chance to drop some Authority knowledge. And I don't necessarily think of it as "shutting down" threads. Aside from Zach and obvious bait threads, I think most are just genuinely curious, so I try to stay informational instead of combative. But since there's been numerous times where threads are made without full knowledge of the Authority, mismatches are frequent. This is actually much closer to a true match than many threads involving them, but it's still not in doubt.
Imo the Authority doesnt need Doctor. The setting is enough an amp for Jack and the team would do fine. Theyd lose ultumately but itd be a way better fight without the need to highball Orion
Originally posted by Sin I AM
Imo the Authority doesnt need Doctor. The setting is enough an amp for Jack and the team would do fine. Theyd lose ultumately but itd be a way better fight without the need to highball Orion
Agreed, both about them doing better than expected, and about Orion ultimately beating them.
Jack in cities is really interesting, and placing his upper limit is tricky. In debates, it's often shrugged away because he's against characters with city-busting blasts. Which is a good argument. But it's not just sitting there. If you created a character from scratch that was the literal size of a city, made of metal and concrete, and gave it punching power to match, phasing, and the ability to heal, gravity manipulation, etc. I think many would see it as >>> than what they see as Jack's potential.
The threads with him on Coruscant and Cybertron are hilarious. We don't have feats to prove it, so it's a LOT of speculation, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that he'd be approaching Skyfather level in those settings.
Originally posted by Digi
Not a bad assessment, but I'd ask what "prepare his mental state" means. He's not Strange, needing time for anything. He just thinks and it happens, and he knows how to fight. That sounds to me like a fancy way of trying to get a foot in the door for a character who's overmatched. We assume reasonable use of powers, yeah? So his mental state is just fine.Orion more durable than Majestic...agreed. But they're in the same league, yeah? The point is that the Doctor wasn't even trying, and wouldn't have had to against Cpt. Atom either. The Doctor was the only one within sniffing distance of the baddy in the arc with the whole Justice League. Giving Orion a slight durability edge over Majestic is throwing paper towels into a swimming pool to stop a child from drowning.
I've addressed the drug addiction. He was out for a couple fights, and sober for the rest. it's overblown. Most times he's removed through a plot device not tied to his character traits. I'd also request examples of "screwing up" in actual fights where he had his wits about him. You clearly know the team and what it's done, so that kind of nebulous statement is again begging for specifics. But unless we assume he actually shows up stoned to the fight - which I think we can all agree would be a laughable concession that he normally wins against Orion - then what's the argument for Orion here?
I mean prepare in the sense that's he's ready to fight someone like Orion. He isn't facing another flying brick here. He's fighting the dog of war, who comes with the AstroForce, Mother Box and a savagery he's rarely seen.
I don't believe the usual level of easiness he's accustomed to when facing most beings will be sufficient for Orion. So by prepare himself I mean, he's ready for a fight, he know he'll have to work and if he's not careful he can go down.
Orion is not just more durable than Majestic, he's also a lot more cosmologically important with a much higher state of existence and with much higher overall feats (The same way Thor = God has allowed him to do high end feats).
I for example can totally see the Doctor trying to warp Orion, failing (I don't subscribe to the idea that the Doctor can easily transmute Orion etc.) and the shock and surprise being enough for Orion to land a knock out punch on the Doctor. And yes, technically he's impossible to kill based on the rogue Doctor but as we both know that hardly means he can't be knocked out or incapacitated.
Originally posted by Digi
Agreed, both about them doing better than expected, and about Orion ultimately beating them.Jack in cities is really interesting, and placing his upper limit is tricky. In debates, it's often shrugged away because he's against characters with city-busting blasts. Which is a good argument. But it's not just sitting there. If you created a character from scratch that was the literal size of a city, made of metal and concrete, and gave it punching power to match, phasing, and the ability to heal, gravity manipulation, etc. I think many would see it as >>> than what they see as Jack's potential.
The threads with him on Coruscant and Cybertron are hilarious. We don't have feats to prove it, so it's a LOT of speculation, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest that he'd be approaching Skyfather level in those settings.
U also can chalk it up to the fact that outside Mids/Apollo the rest just arent that popular.
As far as Jack Id love to see him in a Mega City One, Iacon type scenario or maybe a psuedo/mythologic "city" like Olympus or Hell. He has a shit ton of potential