Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palpatine? Maybe. But I assure you Disney didn't draw from SWTOR when crafting Snoke.Snoke is nothing like Valkorion - and the small ways that they are similar is because Vitiate is a rip-off of Palpatine.
We have Malachor V, a Revan-looking Caedus.
Vitiate is a rip-off of Palpatine and Darth Nihilus.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Aftermath Novels yet. The visual dictionary, with the segment about the attendants pretty much confirmed that Snoke is that immensely powerful being from the Uknown Regions. I'm willing to put his power MAYBE above Palpatine, being the sheevite that I am. Palpatine himself believed that whatever he was searching for was the source of the Dark Side. That's how powerful Snoke is.
And despite the pain it brings me to agree with Quanchi, he's right. Snoke is immensely powerful. He managed to create a bond between Rey and Kylo that was more powerful than the one Luke created on Crait. It didn't last as long, but he actually transported the rainwater, a feat that Luke Skywalker couldn't accomplish, when he puts the dice in Leia's hands, and she realizes that they're not actually there. Snoke then makes Ren and Rey TOUCH each other, which once again, Luke couldn't do. When he kissed Leia, she realized that he wasn't there.
Snoke also seemed to do this without threat of death, and while I believe Luke chose to give himself to the force, and didn't die from the stress of holding that power, it still visibly took a lot out of him.
And of course, the thing about Rey being ragdolled, right before she gets into a tug-of-Force contest with Ren, and they split the lightsaber down the middle. Keep in mind, Ren was powerful enough to destroy an entire academy full of Jedi before his training with Snoke started, after which he only became MORE powerful. Then, his powers grew even further by the time we saw him in the Last Jedi. So it's safe to assume that he's Powerful with a capital "P". And Snoke's ragdolling Rey means that Snoke is MUCH more powerful than that.
In the end, he let his hubris get the better of him, but he was insanely powerful.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
You can't worm around this. Ren's full potential is Luke level, not Vader level. So yes, I agree that if Ren reached Peak Luke + level, Snoke wouldn't be able to handle him.Literally irrelevant. Snoke isn't peak Luke level, I agree.
The hell?
You're the one trying to assert that Snoke needs his guards to subdue Kylo. I'm saying that just because the guards instinctively come to Snoke's side, doesn't mean he needs them to subdue Kylo. :/
Headcanon.
Uhh, cool.
I shouldn't have bothered responding to the full post. Half of this shit is irrelevant. Rey is Kylo's counterpart, as he grows in power, so does she, hence why they're visibly equals. You'd have to be braindead to not see otherwise. That she has less training clearly doesn't matter, it seems, as she annihilated (an admittedly injured, broken) Kylo) without ever wielding a lightsaber.
In your next post, could you provide more solid evidence and less headcanon? Thanks.
Oh lord. :/
The calling didn't save her from Snoke, did it? 😂
They stalemated. They're equals. Get over it.
Holy crap. 🙂
Rey, while literally having no training in the force, visibly overpowers Kylo's intrusions and in terms pinpoints and reveals his deepest fear. That is overwhelming. You're being braindead right now.
Telepathically? Yes. Telekinetically? Yes. Saber skill? Perhaps, not that it's relevant to Snoke's domination of Rey.
I mean, what are you actually suggesting here? That Rey doesn't need to
read those Jedi booksknow she can use the force, ortrain in the slightestever wield a lightsaber in her life, but that she's still going to magically beequalsuperior to Kylo in Episode97?TFA already did that. 👆
Are you okay?
I literally never once mentioned the lightning attack as a feat for Snoke. What I DID mention as a feat for Snoke indicating vast superiority to Kylo is his domination of Rey and ability to casually perform a feat multiple times that would kill Kylo from the exertion of doing it. Rey and Kylo stalemate for the lightsaber, Snoke grabs it from Rey and smacks her on the head without any effort whatsoever. Give me a break.
Quan really has broken you, man. I never once mentioned putting Snoke on Palpatine's level. Not without more evidence.
This is the most irrelevant response I have ever seen. There is so much context here that I don't even know how to begin to respond to this. The evidence shows the following:
[list]
[*]Snoke can casually perform a feat multiple times that would kill Kylo from the exertion.
[*]Snoke can effortlessly rip the lightsaber from Rey's grip and steal whatever knowledge he wants from her, and ragdoll her, all casually.
[*]The same Rey is holistically implied and empirically shown to be every bit as powerful as Kylo.
[/list]The guards are irrelevant to the argument at hand, as I never argued that Snoke's lightning attack proves vast superiority to Kylo (other stuff does).
I don't want any headcanon in your next post. Put up or shut up. 🙂
Will try to respond to this later on in the week.
But as soon as you start saying shit like “it’s obvious unless you’re brain dead”, then you’re obviously getting annoyed at the lack of actual evidence on your side and walking remarkably close to Quanchi level of debating.
You are being so unreasonable and retarded he's calling you on it. What's worse this isn't his typical style. That should be an indicator of how obtuse you're being here to reach your outlandish conclusions. It's about making an argument not trash talking. Stick to your argument if you can. You never usually do and resort to trolling when your points get lambasted.
Originally posted by quanchi112
You are being so unreasonable and retarded he's calling you on it. What's worse this isn't his typical style.
👆 🙂
I'm not the only one not named quan who thinks you're being stupid here, either.
Edit: I also don't know how you can say I don't have any actual evidence when half of your post is filled with things you literally made up.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
👆 🙂I'm not the only one not named quan who thinks you're being stupid here, either.
Edit: I also don't know how you can say I don't have any actual evidence when half of your post is filled with things you literally made up.
You're not helping your case with this "you're just being stupid"
No, Rey being equal to Kylo in Force mastery in TK defenses, and in every way you like to imagine is the biggest made up thing in this debate.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're not helping your case with this "you're just being stupid"No, Rey being equal to Kylo in Force mastery in TK defenses, and in every way you like to imagine is the biggest made up thing in this debate.
The problem is that it doesn't matter whether or not Rey's TK defenses are better or not, because I don't need Snoke ragdolling Rey to prove his vast superiority to her and Kylo regardless. You can't get around Snoke effortlessly grabbing the lightsaber from Rey, casually extracting knowledge from Rey (whereas an inferior Rey overpowered Kylo in TP), or casually melding the minds of Ren and Rey.
Regarding the ragdolling, the intent of the scene is extremely clear imo. Snoke is vastly more powerful than Rey, who is just as powerful as Kylo.
First appreciate getting on topic:
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The problem is that it doesn't matter whether or not Rey's TK defenses are better or not, because I don't need Snoke ragdolling Rey to prove his vast superiority to her and Kylo regardless. You can't get around Snoke effortlessly grabbing the lightsaber from Rey, casually extracting knowledge from Rey (whereas an inferior Rey overpowered Kylo in TP), or casually melding the minds of Ren and Rey.
I mean no one's denying Snoke's force powers were greater than Kylo's at this point.
However that said, Force powers such as TK and Lightning are only one 1 part of defeating someone in combat. As we all know Snoke has no Saber feats at all. We can't just assume because he can control Rey's saber (when she's trying to pull it away from Snoke), that thIS somehow means Snoke will easily pull Kylo's saber from him mid-combat.
Likewise Kylo has had proper training unlike Rey. So just because Rey (in a rage) is TK'd so easily doesn't mean Kylo won't be able to go head to head with Snoke.
For an example just look at AOTC Anakin getting easily ragdolled by Dooku, but then Kenobi (Anakin's equal, but better mentally in terms of training) deflects Dooku's force powers. And then Anakin later still takes Dooku on in a Saber battle.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Regarding the ragdolling, the intent of the scene is extremely clear imo. Snoke is vastly more powerful than Rey, who is just as powerful as Kylo.
I would argue that though there is a definite power gap between Snoke and Kylo, that it's not as vast as the "Rey being owned" would suggest, given the fact that Kylo killed Snoke.
And again, Snoke being more powerful in the Force doesn't equate to an easy win in combat. Look at Windu vs Palpatine in combat, when Palpatine is clearly more powerful in the Force.
Originally posted by Darth ThorExcept you have denied this in previous posts but concede the point here so moving on.
First appreciate getting on topic:I mean no one's denying Snoke's force powers were greater than Kylo's at this point.
Ok, you're saying we don't have any saber feats at all. That's fine to say because he doesn't use a lightsaber in combat but to come to the conclusion he's the only Darkside master in history to be unable to properly wield a lightsaber is asinine. There is no other example of this ever being the case in Star Wars history. If you used common sense and logic you'd come to the obvious conclusion like Sidious in the Ot just because we don't see him wield a lightsaber doesn't mean he isn't exceptional especially considering his status in the mythos. Snoke didn't need to use a lightsaber so why would he ? Sidious also didn't need one against an unarmed Luke. That isn't proof he can't wield one we just don't see him do so until Rots.
However that said, Force powers such as TK and Lightning are only one 1 part of defeating someone in combat. As we all know Snoke has no Saber feats at all. We can't just assume because he can control Rey's saber (when she's trying to pull it away from Snoke), that thIS somehow means Snoke will easily pull Kylo's saber from him mid-combat.[/B]
No one is going to argue Snoke using a lightsaber because we haven't seen it but don't draw the conclusion that he can't wield one just that we don't see it happen.
If Snoke can easily overpower Rey's force defenses and Kylo can't even gain an inch with the lightsaber in an all out force battle for it we can definitely draw that conclusion. He's simply too powerful for Kylo to resist. There was no struggle he did whatever he wanted to Rey when he wanted. This is the first time we ever saw such a massive force power advantage over someone as powerful as Rey with the force.
Kylo has better training with the saber but in terms of force power he had no edge against Rey. So yes we can conclude he overpowers Kylo whenever he wants to since he's an equal of Rey's.Likewise Kylo has had proper training unlike Rey. So just because Rey (in a rage) is TK'd so easily doesn't mean Kylo won't be able to go head to head with Snoke.
For an example just look at AOTC Anakin getting easily ragdolled by Dooku, but then Kenobi (Anakin's equal, but better mentally in terms of training) deflects Dooku's force powers. And then Anakin later still takes Dooku on in a Saber battle.[/B]
Bad example for one reason. Dooku didn't just casually take care of him when he wanted to but needed the right moment to use the force. That's entirely different than Snoke flopping Rey around however he wants whenever he wants. It wasn't just one time it was made clear he treated her like silly putty.
Dooku wasn't powerful enough to take Anakin out whenever he wanted but he needed the proper opening which Anakin didn't provide. Entirely different than with Snoke and Rey as I previously just described.
Betrayal with your guard down doesn't mean you'd be able to do so with his senses on full alert. We see Kylo make an aggressive and deliberate move on him and what happened ? Snoke put him down quickly and without question.I would argue that though there is a definite power gap between Snoke and Kylo, that it's not as vast as the "Rey being owned" would suggest, given the fact that Kylo killed Snoke.
And again, Snoke being more powerful in the Force doesn't equate to an easy win in combat. Look at Windu vs Palpatine in combat, when Palpatine is clearly more powerful in the Force. [/B]
Sidious' power advantage in the force isn't great enough he can just overcome Windu whenever he wants. We see that play out. Windu is in his peer group and won the fight. Snoke was beyond Rey who was Kylo's virtual equal in power described by Snoke himself. Light meets the dark. Snoke is just superior to both. Embarrassingly so much better for Rey and Kylo.
Andy Serkis himself has implied multiple times that the reason Snoke has not achieved what he has is because he's physically damaged. I mean, I'd be surpirsed if he could swing a lightsaber around like Luke did in Episode IV, forget wielding it in combat.
Just because Snoke is the most powerful force user we've ever seen (in Canon) doesn't mean that he can take on others less powerful than him. In fact, he might have just been afraid of Luke because he is physically incapable of dealing with this kind of threat, even though he may be more powerful in the force than him.
Originally posted by ZentrexA lot of conjecture on your end. Yoda is physically weak and reliant on the force for combat. Once he relies on the force he becomes spry and quite elusive.
Andy Serkis himself has implied multiple times that the reason Snoke has not achieved what he has is because he's physically damaged. I mean, I'd be surpirsed if he could swing a lightsaber around like Luke did in Episode IV, forget wielding it in combat.Just because Snoke is the most powerful force user we've ever seen (in Canon) doesn't mean that he can take on others less powerful than him. In fact, he might have just been afraid of Luke because he is physically incapable of dealing with this kind of threat, even though he may be more powerful in the force than him.
Take on someone less powerful than him ? We see exactly just that. We see him deal with both Kylo and Rey. He deals with them decisively and easily. We see Luke up against both Rey and Kylo and look considerably worse than Snoke fared.
Snoke wants the Jedi wiped off the map. He doesn't want hope to spread. That is what Luke represented. Even Like said he was no threat with his laser sword to the First Order. Snoke wanted to wipe the rest of the disease of the Jedi in Luke before it spread any further.
Sidious also feared Luke in the Ot. Sidious also knew the significance in wiping the Jedi off the map with order 66. That doesn't mean any Jedi can defeat him in combat. It means he wants his rival philosophies and adversaries wiped off the map because they pose a threat to his rule.
To sum it up it's quite simple that Snoke showed just how powerful he is when dealing with younger physically able force mega powerful force users in combat. You should less on conjecture and more evidence.
Okay, here's some evidence (or at least what I hope you'll count as evidence):
Snoke is incapable because of his physical condition. This has been implied by Serkis, and said by the visual dictionary (and the Aftermath novels if you think that Snoke was the Source of the Dark side mentioned in them) multiple times. He's vulnerable.
I know that in the past, we've seen people with weaker physiques use Force augmentation to make themselves fight well, but it's very possible that the people who created this character simply didn't consider that. And even if he used force augmentation, to a guy who feels pain just talking, or getting up, running around, even with the help of the force, would be excruciating.
Originally posted by ZentrexWe see him capable despite his physical condition. Sure his body is old and been hurt badly in the past but his force power negates that just as it did for Yoda who was also old and withered.
Okay, here's some evidence (or at least what I hope you'll count as evidence):
Snoke is incapable because of his physical condition. This has been implied by Serkis, and said by the visual dictionary (and the Aftermath novels if you think that Snoke was the Source of the Dark side mentioned in them) multiple times. He's vulnerable.I know that in the past, we've seen people with weaker physiques use Force augmentation to make themselves fight well, but it's very possible that the people who created this character simply didn't consider that. And even if he used force augmentation, to a guy who feels pain just talking, or getting up, running around, even with the help of the force, would be excruciating.
Speculation. We see Snoke move and react to Kylo when he made an aggressive move. He put him down. We see him casually disarm Rey and just force rape her at will. When he uses the force he wrecks people just fine as per the film. Two examples of not just winning beating your foe into submission decisively despite their force raw strength and physically able bodies.
Facts>speculation.
Originally posted by ZentrexNo, we don't need a novel to explain the clear point of the scenes. I see him utterly toy with Rey. I've never seen someone as powerful as she was described by Luke owned in force power with the relative ease seen in the film. That's a fact. Right after the scene we see Kylo can't overpower her fighting for the lightsaber. Snoke is in a class by himself.
I guess we'll have to wait until more about Snoke is revealed (Edit: In the Last Jedi novel or something) to find out who's right. until then, I stand by my position.
We see him toy with Rey with the Force when he was prepared. When he wasn't expecting betrayal, such as in the scene where he died at the hands of Kylo, he was not able to defend himself. That is a fact. And so, if he's not consciously protecting himself, he's left vulnerable to damage.
If he was so capable, then why go to such great lengths to hide himself, and have other people do the dirtywork for him? Why travel on a moving base, and contact a very select few number of people via hologram? Why have underlings do all the work for him? It's not to keep himself secret because everybody already seems to know him. He is clearly restricted by SOME measure, and that restriction stays true, despite his powers with the force.