So - How powerful is Snoke, exactly?

Originally posted by Zentrex
We see him toy with Rey with the Force when he was prepared. When he wasn't expecting betrayal, such as in the scene where he died at the hands of Kylo, he was not able to defend himself. That is a fact. And so, if he's not consciously protecting himself, he's left vulnerable to damage.

If he was so capable, then why go to such great lengths to hide himself, and have other people do the dirtywork for him? Why travel on a moving base, and contact a very select few number of people via hologram? Why have underlings do all the work for him? It's not to keep himself secret because everybody already seems to know him. He is clearly restricted by SOME measure, and that restriction stays true, despite his powers with the force.

Any great leader isn't marching the streets putting himself at unnecessary risk and would have others achieve his missions for him. We see Sidious do the same things with Order 66, etc. Sidious didn't expect for Yoda to come find him and tried to flee from a fight after Yoda fought back. That doesn't mean he's weaker and can't hold his own but rather he wasn't ok with the risk when he realized he could possibly be killed.

We see with his force powers Snoke is on another level. The rest I explained. Quit ignoring the facts and pretending. When he's alert he's going to own you with the force. It is the same in reality that you need to be prepared in a fight but if you are suddenly betrayed and aren't alert that doesn't mean you'd lose a fair fight to the same guy who cheapshots you.

The most glaring defeat is Vader who kills Sidious with one hand and no weapon. If it was a quick slash I'd forgive it more since he doesn't have time to defend himself. But a slow moving cyborg overpowering and walking him over to toss him is bad. He had time to defend himself and wasn't strong enough to stop Vader.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Anyone is left vulnerable if they aren't alert. You make no sense. Kenobi caught Maul unaware in TPM that doesn't mean he's physically weak he was arrogant and unprepared in the moment after he won the duel. With Snoke not dropping his guard and reveling in the victory he put Kylo down with relative ease.

Any great leader isn't marching the streets putting himself at unnecessary risk and would have others achieve his missions for him. We see Sidious do the same things with Order 66, etc. Sidious didn't expect for Yoda to come find him and tried to flee from a fight after Yoda fought back. That doesn't mean he's weaker and can't hold his own but rather he wasn't ok with the risk when he realized he could possibly be killed.

We see with his force powers Snoke is on another level. The rest I explained. Quit ignoring the facts and pretending. When he's alert he's going to own you with the force. It is the same in reality that you need to be prepared in a fight but if you are suddenly betrayed and aren't alert that doesn't mean you'd lose a fair fight to the same guy who cheapshots you.

The most glaring defeat is Vader who kills Sidious with one hand and no weapon. If it was a quick slash I'd forgive it more since he doesn't have time to defend himself. But a slow moving cyborg overpowering and walking him over to toss him is bad. He had time to defend himself and wasn't strong enough to stop Vader.

If he's so powerful, then why are his injuries repeatedly called "vulnerabilities"? Why does Serkis say that his true agenda (which seems like it would have been BIG if it came to fruition) is belied by his vulnerability? Why does he say that Snoke's trying to cover up the pain he feels when he's talking and moving? Why does the visual dictionary contain so much stress on the fact that he's injured? Why IS he injured at all? Doesn't seem to serve much to the story. Why are they SO intense, that he's "twisted like a corkscrew", when we don't even get to see him shirtless in the movie?

These injuries are repeatedly stressed as vulnerabilities and WEAKNESSES. He's less capable with them. Yes, he's powerful in the force. That's only half the story. The other half is that he's gravely physically injured, and that gives any contender a good edge against him. He managed to deal with Kylo, because Kylo was willing to step down. And Rey was untrained. Luke was much more powerful than her. He projected himself from halfway across the galaxy, while just having a bond with Kylo alone would have KILLED Rey. He can't go into a fight against someone who knows what they're doing because strong as he is in the force, his injuries prevent him from being fully capable. They have taken a lot away. In fact, he was said to have once been a beautiful creature, having his beauty taken away by his injuries. They are a BIG part of his character, and they serve as a hurdle. From all this I can take away that powerful in the force as he is, his injuries have left him susceptable to damage he would have otherwise been unsusceptable to.

And as for Vader, the scene needed to be emotional. And as far as the lore goes, he's the Chosen One. The force willed the death of Palpatine in that moment, more than it had willed anything ever before (as far as we're told).

Originally posted by Zentrex
If he's so powerful, then why are his injuries repeatedly called "vulnerabilities"? Why does Serkis say that his true agenda (which seems like it would have been BIG if it came to fruition) is belied by his vulnerability? Why does he say that Snoke's trying to cover up the pain he feels when he's talking and moving? Why does the visual dictionary contain so much stress on the fact that he's injured? Why IS he injured at all? Doesn't seem to serve much to the story. Why are they SO intense, that he's "twisted like a corkscrew", when we don't even get to see him shirtless in the movie?

It is a common theme with the dark siders who have injuries, are grotesque, scarred, etc. That doesn't mean they aren't powerful. We don't know about his past so it's baseless conjecture at this point until they reveal it if they choose to do so. We should discuss the facts from the film not waste our time talking about things we don't know. He's powerful. That's undeniable.

These injuries are repeatedly stressed as vulnerabilities and WEAKNESSES. He's less capable with them. Yes, he's powerful in the force. That's only half the story. The other half is that he's gravely physically injured, and that gives any contender a good edge against him. He managed to deal with Kylo, because Kylo was willing to step down.
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And Rey was untrained. Luke was much more powerful than her. He projected himself from halfway across the galaxy, while just having a bond with Kylo alone would have KILLED Rey.
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He can't go into a fight against someone who knows what they're doing because strong as he is in the force, his injuries prevent him from being fully capable. They have taken a lot away. In fact, he was said to have once been a beautiful creature, having his beauty taken away by his injuries. They are a BIG part of his character, and they serve as a hurdle. From all this I can take away that powerful in the force as he is, his injuries have left him susceptable to damage he would have otherwise been unsusceptable to.

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Vader was also horribly wounded to the point he's in a suit which sustains his life. So what ? He's still powerful just lost mobility speed. Vader isn't as powerful as Snoke is with the force anyways. We don't see him own anyone with the force in the manner in which Snoke does in this film with Rey who is extremely power for Luke to put her in an extremely exclusive class of two.

And as for Vader, the scene needed to be emotional. And as far as the lore goes, he's the Chosen One. The force willed the death of Palpatine in that moment, more than it had willed anything ever before (as far as we're told). [/B]

I accept those statements. I admit he's powerful in the force, I said as much in my last comment.
Once again, I never said he wasn't powerful. He is. And while it is common for darksiders to be scarred, Snoke is more than just scarred. He's damaged. He's hurt. He's broken. He's made weak. This is not as obvious in the films, but once again, he was once beautiful, and then sustained injuries (not force based degradation, but injuries) which were inspired by injuries soldiers in WWI sustained. On top of that, he's "vulnerable".

It, at first glance, seems to make sense that he'd be able to ragdoll Kylo the way he did Rey, but Rey didn't know what she was heading into. She didn't know how to properly utilize the force in a fight, and didn't know how to properly resist. This is not the case with Kylo, who has training and knowledge of the Force.

Luke had cut himself off from the force. He didn't use force abilities to defend himself as he could have. And she was using a lightsaber against his antenna stick. There's clearly an advantage. Snoke was in charge in that room. Also, it's speculation to say he died from the strain. He was taken aback from the strain, yes, but we don't know whether his death was from it, or if he just decided to give himself to the force, because there was that moment, where it seemed he'd recovered, before he died.

Not Speculation to say that he can't use a lightsaber. He has injuries. Just look at his body shape. He needs special shoes to walk. If he could use the force to just overcome his physical problems, why didn't he? Why did he wear those shoes? Why didn't he heal his injuries? There's an obvious implication (outside of the movies) that he was incapable of such feats. And thus, it would make sense that he can't effectively make use of things which require physical effort. On top of that, Serkis said that he imagines it hurts for Snoke to even walk, or get up, so if that's true, then lightsaber weilding is out of the question.

Vader was wounded, but he wasn't physically weaker because of them. We see him take lightsaber hits to the shoulders without stopping, he lifted an AT-ST after it fell on him and didn't leave a scratch, he survived an exploding city, he took blaster bolts to his hands. These are all feats that Snoke is likely not capable of because of his condition. Vader was still more physically capable, even without the force, than the average human being, because of his cybernetics. Snoke is a different story altogether.

No, it's G-Canon that Anakin was the chosen one. And the Chosen one is the bringer of the will of the force. By definition, bringing balance to the force as Anakin did was the will of the force. And that balance was brought about at Palpatine's death, and thus, that was the will of the force. That isn't even an inference, that's just outright stated.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I accept those statements. I admit he's powerful in the force, I said as much in my last comment.
Once again, I never said he wasn't powerful. He is. And while it is common for darksiders to be scarred, Snoke is more than just scarred. He's damaged. He's hurt. He's broken. He's made weak. This is not as obvious in the films, but once again, he was once beautiful, and then sustained injuries (not force based degradation, but injuries) which were inspired by injuries soldiers in WWI sustained. On top of that, he's "vulnerable".

We go by the films not speculative nonsense. We see him walk just fine. I say he moves far easier than Yoda without the force. Yoda when he uses the force goes from a gait struggling muppet into an elusive circus performer. That's what the force does it makes up for any physical deficiencies. Yoda is also physically vulnerable. So is Sidious, etc. That doesn't mean with their force powers they suddenly become weak and prone to susceptibility.

It, at first glance, seems to make sense that he'd be able to ragdoll Kylo the way he did Rey, but Rey didn't know what she was heading into. She didn't know how to properly utilize the force in a fight, and didn't know how to properly resist. This is not the case with Kylo, who has training and knowledge of the Force.
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She does know how to utilize the force in this fight. Snoke disarms her at will and she isn't powerful enough to resist. She stalemates Ren for the saber damaging it right after her encounter with Snoke. Don't lie. Kylo is her equal in power while Snoke is her clear superior. Just stop.

Luke had cut himself off from the force. He didn't use force abilities to defend himself as he could have. And she was using a lightsaber against his antenna stick. There's clearly an advantage. Snoke was in charge in that room. Also, it's speculation to say he died from the strain. He was taken aback from the strain, yes, but we don't know whether his death was from it, or if he just decided to give himself to the force, because there was that moment, where it seemed he'd recovered, before he died. [/B]

He parried her attacks but as soon as she went for the saber Luke fell down. It didn't look good for a master to get shown up by an apprentice.

Snoke's power asserted his dominance over Rey. He didn't need anyone else to manipulate her body at will. Luke didn't show the force power anywhere near to this degree. Snoke didn't even take her attempts seriously. Luke had to parry her attacks for a time then after he disarmed her she went for the saber and we see what happened. Bad optics.

All you do is speculate. He had purpose and moved on. We see him straining on a force nexus no less so this wasn't an easy feat any which way you look at it. Snoke showed no strain in outright domination over Rey. That speaks to his force power superiority.

Not Speculation to say that he can't use a lightsaber. He has injuries. Just look at his body shape. He needs special shoes to walk. [/B]

If he could use the force to just overcome his physical problems, why didn't he? Why did he wear those shoes? Why didn't he heal his injuries? There's an obvious implication (outside of the movies) that he was incapable of such feats. And thus, it would make sense that he can't effectively make use of things which require physical effort. On top of that, Serkis said that he imagines it hurts for Snoke to even walk, or get up, so if that's true, then lightsaber weilding is out of the question. [/B]

His body is older and it hurts. If he's uses the force like Yoda who overcomes needing a cane when he wants. Vader never healed from his injuries nor did Sidious. No, your speculation isn't proof it's reaching. It's sloppy and is easily countered with Star Wars examples. Even if it hurts we clearly see him walk without screaming out in pain. He walks better than Yoda for ****s sake.

Vader was wounded, but he wasn't physically weaker because of them. We see him take lightsaber hits to the shoulders without stopping, he lifted an AT-ST after it fell on him and didn't leave a scratch, he survived an exploding city, he took blaster bolts to his hands. These are all feats that Snoke is likely not capable of because of his condition. Vader was still more physically capable, even without the force, than the average human being, because of his cybernetics. Snoke is a different story altogether.

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Snoke doesn't need a suit to preserve his life. He can bridge minds across the galaxy something Vader hasn't shown the power to perform. Luke felt Vader's power but his comments implied Ben and Rey are stronger by far than Vader. Snoke vastly outshines both of those two equals in force power.

No, it's G-Canon that Anakin was the chosen one. And the Chosen one is the bringer of the will of the force. By definition, bringing balance to the force as Anakin did was the will of the force. And that balance was brought about at Palpatine's death, and thus, that was the will of the force. That isn't even an inference, that's just outright stated. [/B]

😂

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vader is more than just scarred as well. He's burned, missing limbs, and scarred all over his body. Does that mean he can't fight ? Does that mean he can't use the force ? No, of course not. Same applies here.

We go by the films not speculative nonsense. We see him walk just fine. I say he moves far easier than Yoda without the force. Yoda when he uses the force goes from a gait struggling muppet into an elusive circus performer. That's what the force does it makes up for any physical deficiencies. Yoda is also physically vulnerable. So is Sidious, etc. That doesn't mean with their force powers they suddenly become weak and prone to susceptibility.

I never said he can't use the force. You seem to be confusing me saying he can't defend himself with saying he can't attack. There's a difference. Just because you are the strongest doesn't mean you're the toughest. Snoke can't take the kind of blow that he can dish out.

Also, just because we see him walk seemingly without problem doesn't mean there ISN'T a problem. Serkis said that it he imagined it hurt him to walk, and the Visual dictionary says he needs those special shoes because otherwise the pain is too great.

Originally posted by quanchi112
False and allow me to explain why. Rey resisted Ren's chances to probe her mind prior to her even knowing she had powers. She also probed his mind without any single training. Kylo even says she's powerful in the force. Snoke knew he had to probe her mind since Kylo was not powerful enough to do so. It was established in the last film Snoke's superiority in power over Ren.

You may have a point here. I call plot convenience and a special moment (an awakening), but maybe you're right.

Originally posted by quanchi112
She does know how to utilize the force in this fight. Snoke disarms her at will and she isn't powerful enough to resist. She stalemates Ren for the saber damaging it right after her encounter with Snoke. Don't lie. Kylo is her equal in power while Snoke is her clear superior. Just stop.
He used the force to wield a weapon at the start of the fight. 😂

Alright, you win this one

Originally posted by quanchi112
He parried her attacks but as soon as she went for the saber Luke fell down. It didn't look good for a master to get shown up by an apprentice.

He could have force pushed her out the way, it would have just been a dick move. And it totally was cheap to bring a lightsaber into this. What would you do in this scenario? Start wreaking her because she wanted an answer? Luke's not the kind of person who does anything beyond defending himself. Rey is a little more passionate.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Snoke's power asserted his dominance over Rey. He didn't need anyone else to manipulate her body at will. Luke didn't show the force power anywhere near to this degree. Snoke didn't even take her attempts seriously. Luke had to parry her attacks for a time then after he disarmed her she went for the saber and we see what happened. Bad optics.

He was defending himself, not attacking her. Snoke was torturing her.

Originally posted by quanchi112
All you do is speculate. He had purpose and moved on. We see him straining on a force nexus no less so this wasn't an easy feat any which way you look at it. Snoke showed no strain in outright domination over Rey. That speaks to his force power superiority.

Luke was straining to project himself, and that's much harder than ragdolling Rey. We don't know how difficult it was for Snoke to create that bond, although it was far more powerful than the projection Luke created.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, it is because you aren't using common sense. Why would he wield a lightsaber when he didn't need to manipulate or disarm Rey. Yoda needs a cane to walk but when he uses the force he doesn't need the cane. Why expend extra energy when he disarms her at will. We have never seen this someone so force powerful unable to wield a lightsaber. I've already countered the specials shoes with Yoda needs a cane without the force.

He doesn't need a lightsaber, but he couldn't use one if he wanted to. And while it makes sense in-universe for him to be able to use force augmentation, the story that they're telling seems to hint that his injuries DO prevent him from fully utilizing his broken body somehow.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The attack caught him off guard because he wasn't expecting it. If he had time to react he would have defended himself,providing episode nine hijinx.

see the previous answer.

Originally posted by quanchi112
His body is older and it hurts. If he's uses the force like Yoda who overcomes needing a cane when he wants. Vader never healed from his injuries nor did Sidious. No, your speculation isn't proof it's reaching. It's sloppy and is easily countered with Star Wars examples. Even if it hurts we clearly see him walk without screaming out in pain. He walks better than Yoda for ****s sake.

See the previous previous answer

Originally posted by quanchi112
He has a suit which takes the brunt of the force not his body. His body can't survive without a suit preserving his life. We haven't seen anyone more injured than Vader. So you agree despite his bodily injuries he can use the force to perform great feats. The same applies to Snoke, Yoda, or any other powerful force user.

See the first answer.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Snoke doesn't need a suit to preserve his life. He can bridge minds across the galaxy something Vader hasn't shown the power to perform. Luke felt Vader's power but his comments implied Ben and Rey are stronger by far than Vader. Snoke vastly outshines both of those two equals in force power.

We don't know if he was referring to force ability or just darkness. Maybe the "power" he was afraid of was simply the darkness. And you don't know if that "once before" was with Kylo or with Vader from empire strikes back when Yoda literally says "You will be...[afraid]. You...will...be...". He does say that it didn't scare him enough then, and that it does now. And he tried to KILL Kylo when he sensed his power, so I'd say it scared him enough then.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That was prior to Disney. D canon matters now, kiddo. Things have changed. Interpret it how you will Vader made the choice to toss him down. No power made him do so. He was just too strong with his grip for the old scarred douchebag to be able to defend himself. Sidious had time he just was unable and ended up screaming all the way down.

What's more important than D canon is Head canon. And I still believe Anakin was meant to destroy the sith, and it was inevitable. Call BS on it if you will, but that's my justification.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I never said he can't use the force. You seem to be confusing me saying he can't defend himself with saying he can't attack. There's a difference. Just because you are the strongest doesn't mean you're the toughest. Snoke can't take the kind of blow that he can dish out.

Also, just because we see him walk seemingly without problem doesn't mean there ISN'T a problem. Serkis said that it he imagined it hurt him to walk, and the Visual dictionary says he needs those special shoes because otherwise the pain is too great.

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You may have a point here. I call plot convenience and a special moment (an awakening), but maybe you're right.

Alright, you win this one

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He could have force pushed her out the way, it would have just been a dick move. And it totally was cheap to bring a lightsaber into this. What would you do in this scenario? Start wreaking her because she wanted an answer? Luke's not the kind of person who does anything beyond defending himself. Rey is a little more passionate.

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He was defending himself, not attacking her. Snoke was torturing her.

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Luke was straining to project himself, and that's much harder than ragdolling Rey. We don't know how difficult it was for Snoke to create that bond, although it was far more powerful than the projection Luke created.

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He doesn't need a lightsaber, but he couldn't use one if he wanted to. And while it makes sense in-universe for him to be able to use force augmentation, the story that they're telling seems to hint that his injuries DO prevent him from fully utilizing his broken body somehow.

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see the previous answer.

See the previous previous answer

See the first answer.

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We don't know if he was referring to force ability or just darkness. Maybe the "power" he was afraid of was simply the darkness. And you don't know if that "once before" was with Kylo or with Vader from empire strikes back when Yoda literally says "You will be...[afraid]. You...will...be...". He does say that it didn't scare him enough then, and that it does now. And he tried to KILL Kylo when he sensed his power, so I'd say it scared him enough then.

What's more important than D canon is Head canon. And I still believe Anakin was meant to destroy the sith, and it was inevitable. Call BS on it if you will, but that's my justification. [/B]

He lost his mind against Ben and then felt shame. Ben woke up and owned him. Luke failed him and he knows it. Fear influenced his decision which isn't very Jedi of him tbh.

**** Anakin. He was a pussy and he died. The end.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What does this even mean ? None of these guys can tank lightsabers without injury so it all depends on what you do to defend yourself. Snoke showed himself to be able to disarm Rey at will. What makes this impressive it showed at any point in time he could manipulated her body at will without her being able to do anything about it. We didn't even see Vader capable of dominating Luke to this point back in ESB. Luke held his own for a time and grazed his shoulder with a strike.

What this means is, whoever attacks first, wins. Snoke was fairly in control in that room. He was surrounded by guards, Kylo was there, he had his own chair, and Rey was in a foreign place who walked in with her hands tied. Snoke is powerful, but can be defeated. If he was powerful enough to defend himself, he wouldn't have been cheapshotted. He could have sensed that lightsaber and stopped it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Evidence matters not your hilarious reaching. We don't see it's an issue so you are free to speculate based off nothing from the film. He has the special shoes so what's your point ? Who cares ? He walked just fine. He has his special shoes so it's irrelevant.

You know what's hilarious about your arguments is the words you use. You keep saying "evidence" and use the fact that he "doesn't look too much in pain when he walks." as evidence. If we are to believe what Serkis has said, that's because he was hiding the pain, making himself look more intimidating. And you just brush off the pretty significant fact that he's so disabled, that he needs shoes to walk, not the force, as if it doesn't matter. This IS evidence, not speculation.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Could have is speculative at best. He used the force but never showed he could just force toss her away with ease. No, it wasn't. She was pissed and when he fell back she stopped attacking. She was never going to kill him. At least put her down or disarm her with the force. Snoke showed it was easy Luke didn't. You can't ignore this. Snoke defended himself too. He disarmed her and she wouldn't stop. He mocked her while effortlessly ragdolling her. Luke didn't show he could do so.

Dude, Luke would never have ragdolled her even if he could (and he could have defenitely force pushed her away). Just because she wasn't going to kill him doesn't mean that she didn't have him against a lightsaber blade on the ground. Now, he could have hurt her and escaped, but how would that look. That would be an extreme reaction. Snoke, on the other hand, wasn't just defending himself, he was torturing Rey.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So you admit that took a toll. We don't know if it took a toll on Snoke but we do know Luke's feat took a toll. So once again this favors Snoke in seeing how these characters stack up against Snoke and Luke.

"We don't know, therefore, I can assume my position is correct." Great logic there, friend.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No proof of that whatsoever. You're just speculating. Yoda has a weaker body as did Sidious but both could use a lightsaber. Hell, no one has been more injured than Vader and he used a lightsaber just fine as well. Cling to your odd theory you can't prove that contradicts over their years of Star Wars. Baseless conjecture.

Vader could use a lightsaber because of his suit. His injuries were pretty much negated. And I'm not speculating if what I'm saying is supported by what the makers of the films have said. Just because it wasn't on screen doesn't mean it isn't canon.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He says raw strength. He doesn't say raw darkness. Quit trying to swap words to help your case. I won't allow it.

He lost his mind against Ben and then felt shame. Ben woke up and owned him. Luke failed him and he knows it. Fear influenced his decision which isn't very Jedi of him tbh.

**** Anakin. He was a pussy and he died. The end.

He doesn't say raw darkness, but he still could have been reffering to the power he felt in Vader. And it's likely that he was.

Originally posted by Zentrex
What this means is, whoever attacks first, wins. Snoke was fairly in control in that room. He was surrounded by guards, Kylo was there, he had his own chair, and Rey was in a foreign place who walked in with her hands tied. Snoke is powerful, but can be defeated. If he was powerful enough to defend himself, he wouldn't have been cheapshotted. He could have sensed that lightsaber and stopped it.

You know what's hilarious about your arguments is the words you use. You keep saying "evidence" and use the fact that he "doesn't look too much in pain when he walks." as evidence. If we are to believe what Serkis has said, that's because he was hiding the pain, making himself look more intimidating. And you just brush off the pretty significant fact that he's so disabled, that he needs shoes to walk, not the force, as if it doesn't matter. This IS evidence, not speculation.

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Yoda needs a cane to walk, kid. Snoke doesn't need a cane he uses shoes. So Snoke is better off than Yoda. If he uses the force his abilities dramatically increase like Yoda. Vader needs a suit to live so by your retarded logic he's worse off than anyone. When he taps into the force like any force user their abilities become superhuman. That's the point, dipshit.

Dude, Luke would never have ragdolled her even if he could (and he could have defenitely force pushed her away). Just because she wasn't going to kill him doesn't mean that she didn't have him against a lightsaber blade on the ground. Now, he could have hurt her and escaped, but how would that look. That would be an extreme reaction. Snoke, on the other hand, wasn't just defending himself, he was torturing Rey.[/B]

"We don't know, therefore, I can assume my position is correct." Great logic there, friend.[/B]

Vader could use a lightsaber because of his suit. His injuries were pretty much negated. And I'm not speculating if what I'm saying is supported by what the makers of the films have said. Just because it wasn't on screen doesn't mean it isn't canon.

He doesn't say raw darkness, but he still could have been reffering to the power he felt in Vader. And it's likely that he was. [/B]

So if he doesn't say it we go with what he does say. He points out darkness in her but when he feels her power he refers to it as raw strength. No, you're a troll. You're a sock who ignores words, facts, and uses double standards to peddle your agenda.

Kick rocks, loser.

I've said all I have to say, and you seem to have as well. I noticed we've been going back and forth with the same arguments again and again, so I'm just ending this pointless game of ping pong.

And just for the record, you think your arguments are logical, but that's only cause you can't see outside your own thought process.

Snoke workships Vaders power so that's telling. I don't think Snoke is the source of the DS Palps sensed in Aftermath because of that.

Well, his "attendants" are from the unknown regions, and the visual dictionary says "Were it not for the ancient hyperspace trails blazed by these towering servants, the imperial survivors who fled into the unknown regions would certainly have perished". Since we know the only imperial survivors were Rae Sloane and Crew, and they went into the unknown regions, it seems very difficult NOT to believe that Snoke is from the unknown regions.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Snoke workships Vaders power so that's telling. I don't think Snoke is the source of the DS Palps sensed in Aftermath because of that.

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Originally posted by Zentrex

And just for the record, you think your arguments are logical, but that's only cause you can't see outside your own thought process.

👆 👆

Originally posted by The Merchant
Snoke workships Vaders power so that's telling. I don't think Snoke is the source of the DS Palps sensed in Aftermath because of that.

Originally posted by Zentrex
I've said all I have to say, and you seem to have as well. I noticed we've been going back and forth with the same arguments again and again, so I'm just ending this pointless game of ping pong.

And just for the record, you think your arguments are logical, but that's only cause you can't see outside your own thought process.

Because at a certain point in any debate people repeat their points. The difference here is mine is supported by facts and common sense while yours is conjecture based.

I can see outside of my arguments but it isn't evidentiary or logically based. We see a guy unable to walk without a cane that doesn't mean when he uses the force he can't become elusive and quite athletic. Your argument consists of a guy wearing special shoes which already shoes he can walk better than Yoda without the force. So why wouldn't it make sense that he can tap into the force and wield a light saber ? What other examples do you have ? None and I've already refuted the point with the Yoda example.

I accept your unconditional surrender.

If it makes you happy, quan.

Originally posted by Zentrex
If it makes you happy, quan.

The reason I couldn't counter was that I'd been using the same arguments and you'd been replying to them with the same comments. You can't elaborate any further than I can.

Originally posted by Zentrex
The reason I couldn't counter was that I'd been using the same arguments and you'd been replying to them with the same comments. You can't elaborate any further than I can.