Originally posted by Darth Thor
Unsubstantiated.Had Kenobi been on his own and fought fully defensively like he did against ROTS Anakin or against Rebels Maul, then theres little to suggest Dooku would stomp.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
He got in a Force push once that did nothing to Kenobi,
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
it's not any more impressive than Yoda force pushing Sidious, and we know how that turned out.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
As for the 2nd one, there are 2 sources implying Kenobi could've countered Dooku's choke, but it was just too fast.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
In an other source he doesn't even ragdoll just got a lucky force push that knocks Kenobi out.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Couple that with my above quote and the fact that they are both Tier 8 combatants and Dooku ain't stomping Kenobi on the regular basis.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
How does fighting defensively render him less likely to get taken out by a Force attack?
I actually don't remember from Stover's novel whether Dooku overpowers Kenobi with the Force, moves too quickly for him, or just catches him off guard, in order of how big of a disparity it implies.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I actually don't remember from Stover's novel whether Dooku overpowers Kenobi with the Force, moves too quickly for him, or just catches him off guard, in order of how big of a disparity it implies.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Actually, Kenobi is out of the fight for circa 7 seconds. If Anakin hadn't been there, what would have stopped Dooku from simply taking his lightsaber from him, and then killing him?
Dooku pushed Kenobi in one direction then moved to an other. It's painfully obvious why that wouldn't work in a 1on1.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
I pointed to the fact that Dooku momentarily removed Obi-Wan from the fight so swiftly as part of my argument as to why I take issue with the source you referenced. In the movie, Yoda clearly demonstrated skill and power that, logically, would warrant him the status as a ''threat'' to Sidious. Obi-Wan hardly did, so I disagree with your comparison.
Excpet there's nothing impressive about force pushing someone away for a few seconds. It happens all the time.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
I'm not exactly sure what your point is... Dooku was too fast for Obi-Wan. Is there reason to believe, in another instance, Kenobi would be able to resist the attack?
The point is that Dooku can't overpower Kenobi on a whim.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
It doesn't really matter if you deem it a ''ragdoll'' or a Force push. The end result is the same - that Obi-Wan got knocked out, as you mention.
It does matter, because in the novel Kenobi was only knocked out because:
1. Dooku had the highground and kicked Kenobi in the face
2. This left Kenobi open for an empowered force push
3. When Kenobi smashed into the wall it buckled on top of him
Even in the movie if the railing wasn't there Kenobi might've not been knocked out.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
I disagree. Perhaps ''stomp'' is a borderline extreme term but he did take out Kenobi twice in the same fight, while simultaneously dealing with Anakin. In TCW, he was also almost knocked out, and would have been if Anakin had not intervened. So I fail to see how he competes with Dooku.
TCW is pre-prime so doesn't matter. His 1st force push is useless because literally anyone can do that. His ragdoll was circumstantial. And there are 2 sources saying/implying Kenobi can compete with Dooku.
Superficial analysis of the movie duel that lacks context doesn't hold water to the above.
Originally posted by Kurk
Which encounter is it referring to?
RotS. That's when Dooku switches tactics, isn't it?
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Dooku pushed Kenobi in one direction then moved to an other. It's painfully obvious why that wouldn't work in a 1on1.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Excpet there's nothing impressive about force pushing someone away for a few seconds. It happens all the time.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
The point is that Dooku can't overpower Kenobi on a whim.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
It does matter, because in the novel Kenobi was only knocked out because:
1. Dooku had the highground and kicked Kenobi in the face
2. This left Kenobi open for an empowered force push
3. When Kenobi smashed into the wall it buckled on top of him
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Even in the movie if the railing wasn't there Kenobi might've not been knocked out.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
TCW is pre-prime so doesn't matter.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
His 1st force push is useless because literally anyone can do that.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
His ragdoll was circumstantial.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And there are 2 sources saying/implying Kenobi can compete with Dooku.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Superficial analysis of the movie duel that lacks context doesn't hold water to the above.
I already said that I conceded that Kenobi might be a ''threat'' to Kenobi {due to your quote}, but that I took issue with it nonetheless. I pointed you to the duel, in which Dooku makes him appear as the exact opposite, and have reasonably argued why I find that my stance is fair. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with me, but you haven't provided a fair and decent argument as to why that is, in my opinion.
Originally posted by cs_zoltanIt referred to B2 droids so I was thrown off.
Dooku pushed Kenobi in one direction then moved to an other. It's painfully obvious why that wouldn't work in a 1on1.Excpet there's nothing impressive about force pushing someone away for a few seconds. It happens all the time.
The point is that Dooku can't overpower Kenobi on a whim.
It does matter, because in the novel Kenobi was only knocked out because:
1. Dooku had the highground and kicked Kenobi in the face
2. This left Kenobi open for an empowered force push
3. When Kenobi smashed into the wall it buckled on top of himEven in the movie if the railing wasn't there Kenobi might've not been knocked out.
TCW is pre-prime so doesn't matter. His 1st force push is useless because literally anyone can do that. His ragdoll was circumstantial. And there are 2 sources saying/implying Kenobi can compete with Dooku.
Superficial analysis of the movie duel that lacks context doesn't hold water to the above.
RotS. That's when Dooku switches tactics, isn't it?
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
... Because he went on to fight Anakin. No, it's not really obvious why, in a 1 vs. 1, knocking someone out with a Force push and then using the Force again to remove their weapons and then killing them would not work. It sounds pretty logical to me, but perhaps you could elaborate?
He didn't knock out Kenobi lmao. Kenobi fell over, then get on his feet and ran back. That's why it took so "long". Unless Dooku disengages again then all of that is irrelevant.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Why do you keep using the word ''impressive''? We're hardly comparing feats and accolades here, but rather discussing the nature of the fight in question. And what is your point that it happens all the time? Not really a rational response. I already explained why your Yoda vs. Sidious comparison is faulty {which you did not address}, so perhaps you could make another, better comparison instead?
Because you make it out to be impressive? You base your stance that Dooku can stomp Kenobi because he pushed him...
My point of it happens all the time is that it happens all the time? 😬
Weaker force users push more powerful ones around several times in SW. Maladi vs Cade, Ventress vs Anakin, Outlander vs Arcann, Yoda vs Sidious, Sora Bulq vs Mace Windu. Do you want me to keep going?
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
But he already did? You really haven't explained why Dooku can't do that again.
I have, maybe you have comprehension issues? Dooku slipped under Kenobi's defense when he fought uncharacteristically, Kenobi could've countered it still but Dooku threw him away too fast, and then he got lucky by actually having something around to knock out Kenobi.
Since Dooku can't just power through Kenobi's shield he have to have an opportunity when Kenobi isn't expecting it, then he have to capitalize on it before Kenobi can break out, and he has to have in a situation that he can instantly knock him out. That's why he can't do that consistently. I didn't say he can't do it at all, period.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
And in the junior novel, Obi-Wan was too slow to defend Dooku's attack. And in the movie {which stands above}, Obi-Wan was not knocked out by a kick first, he was simply taken in a Force choke and then thrown away.
I addressed these already...
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Obi-Wan didn't move an inch from the time he hit the balcony to when Dooku brought it down on him. But as you said yourself, the point is whether Dooku can overpower Obi-Wan ''on a whim'', not whether Obi-Wan would have been unconscious or not had the balcony not been crashed onto him.
Your point?
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Pre-prime Dooku, too?
Yeah I'm sure the 83 year old Dooku - who mostly directed from the back, not fighting in the front line - improves as much as the 38 years old Kenobi fighting in the front lines in the most intense part of the biggest war the galaxy have ever seen...
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Useless? He temporarily removed Obi-Wan from the fight, which would have been a good opportunity to end it, had Anakin not been there. That doesn't sound useless to me, but okay.
Yeah except he couldn't have. By the time Dooku gets to Kenobi he would've already been on his feet.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Mind elaborating as to why the circumstances were against Kenobi, when it was Dooku who was fighting 1 vs. 2?
I did, several times.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
That may or may not be true, but if ''competing'' is the same as what Kenobi does in the movie, choice of word hardly matters. In any case I question the validity of the quotes, for the same reason as with the first one you provided. But again, post the quotes?
I posted one, the other is from Gillard's tier ranking. Where both Dooku and Kenobi are 8s.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
?I already said that I conceded that Kenobi might be a ''threat'' to Kenobi {due to your quote}, but that I took issue with it nonetheless. I pointed you to the duel, in which Dooku makes him appear as the exact opposite, and have reasonably argued why I find that my stance is fair. That doesn't necessarily mean you have to agree with me, but you haven't provided a fair and decent argument as to why that is, in my opinion.
Well that's your opinion. If Dooku's concession that he can't break Kenobi's Soresu, several sources explaining why Dooku could BFR Kenobi, several sources stating Kenobi is a threat to Dooku isn't enough for you then we are done here.
cs_zoltan
He didn't knock out Kenobi lmao. Kenobi fell over, then get on his feet and ran back. That's why it took so "long". Unless Dooku disengages again then all of that is irrelevant.
you
we are done here.
cs_zoltan
Because you make it out to be impressive? You base your stance that Dooku can stomp Kenobi because he pushed him...
you
we are done here.
cs_zoltan
My point of it happens all the time is that it happens all the time? 😬
Weaker force users push more powerful ones around several times in SW. Maladi vs Cade, Ventress vs Anakin, Outlander vs Arcann, Yoda vs Sidious, Sora Bulq vs Mace Windu. Do you want me to keep going?
cs_zoltan
I have, maybe you have comprehension issues?
cs_zoltan
Dooku slipped under Kenobi's defense when he fought uncharacteristically,
cs_zoltan
Kenobi could've countered it still
cs_zoltan
but Dooku threw him away too fast,
cs_zoltan
and then he got lucky by actually having something around to knock out Kenobi.
cs_zoltan
Since Dooku can't just power through Kenobi's shield
cs_zoltan
he have to have an opportunity when Kenobi isn't expecting it,
cs_zoltan
then he have to capitalize on it before Kenobi can break out,
cs_zoltan
and he has to have in a situation that he can instantly knock him out.
cs_zoltan
That's why he can't do that consistently. I didn't say he can't do it at all, period.
cs_zoltan
I addressed these already...
cs_zoltan
Your point?
facepalm
I responded to this dismal argument of yours:
cs_zoltan
Even in the movie if the railing wasn't there Kenobi might've not been knocked out.
Tell me, do your own points confuse you?
cs_zoltan Yeah I'm sure the 83 year old Dooku - who mostly directed from the back, not fighting in the front line - improves as much as the 38 years old Kenobi fighting in the front lines in the most intense part of the biggest war the galaxy have ever seen...
cs_zoltan
Yeah except he couldn't have. By the time Dooku gets to Kenobi he would've already been on his feet.
cs_zoltan
I did, several times.
cs_zoltan
I posted one, the other is from Gillard's tier ranking. Where both Dooku and Kenobi are 8s.
cs_zoltan
Well that's your opinion. If Dooku's concession that he can't break Kenobi's Soresu, several sources explaining why Dooku could BFR Kenobi, several sources stating Kenobi is a threat to Dooku isn't enough for you then we are done here.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Because hes caught off guard with Force attacks a lot when it the offensive. Not so much on the defensive.You know Kenobi is the Defence Master right?
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Kenobi is known for his great Soresu skill, not his great defensive Force skills. And your point honestly doesn't make much sense to me. Why would he be less likely to get hit by a Force attack when he is defending compared to when he is attacking? Whether he gets caught off guard due to inferior speed, Force senses, reaction, less Force mastery or whatever, why would any of that be in relation to whether he is on the defensive or on the offensive?
Because he fights better defensively and is less likely to get caught off guard.
Or do you have an example of Maul or Dooku TK bitching him when he was combating defensively?
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
So, you prioritize irrelevant nitpicking of wording on whether Kenobi was ''knocked out'' or simply Force pushed, then proceed to scream ''irrelevant'' instead of addressing what I said and answering my question?
How the **** is the distinction between being knock out and simply falling over irrelevant?
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
First, your neglectance to actually read my posts is noted, and second, so is your strawman. I never said that Dooku could stomp Obi-Wan solely on the basis that he Force pushed him, but rather pointed to it to add to my point that the movie disagrees with the idea that Obi-Wan can compete with/is a threat to Dooku, and that Dooku could have capitalized more effectively had Anakin not been there.
You act like a simple force push is proof that Kenobi is not a threat to Dooku. The fact that you still can't concede that proves my point.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Not really, because at this rate, all you're doing is throwing around bad comparisons with no merit. I already told you why your Yoda vs. Sidious does not work, and to reiterate, you failed to respond adequately.
You didn't show **** all. You totally missed my point. My point was that Yoda, who is weaker than Sidious, could still land a force push on him. And somehow you came to the conclusion that this makes Yoda a threat to Sidious, but Kenobi didn't demonstrate this against Dooku. And I care about that why? I didn't draw any analog between Yoda's push and Kenobi not landing a push. I drew it between Dooku and Yoda. How you could interpret it otherwise is beyond me.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
The fact that you base your comparisons on the notion that weaker Force adepts have Force pushed stronger ones before is utterly irrelevant, because Dooku is not weaker than Obi-Wan {unless you will contest this, of course?}. In fact, at this point you have practically moved the goalpost, because your initial response was that the Force push did nothing to Obi-Wan {when it actually did, clearly}.
That's the point idiot. If a weaker force user can push their superior then why the **** should anyone care that Dooku pushed Kenobi, his inferior?
By not doing anything I meant it didn't incapacitate or injure Kenobi in any form. So, practically nothing.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Nice ad hominem, but no, you haven't. But I have a tendency to ignore bullshit, so perhaps it slipped under my radar?
Yes, it's what started our whole debate:
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
As for the 2nd one, there are 2 sources implying Kenobi could've countered Dooku's choke, but it was just too fast. In an other source he doesn't even ragdoll just got a lucky force push that knocks Kenobi out. Couple that with my above quote and the fact that they are both Tier 8 combatants and Dooku ain't stomping Kenobi on the regular basis.
Maybe not comprehension issues just short term memory loss?
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Actually, per the movie, Obi-Wan simply runs up the stairs and then gets Force choked. I suppose running up a staircase is uncharacteristic for Obi-Wan, though?
And as per the novel he was attacking Dooku.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Prove that he would have countered Dooku's attack successfully.
The novel credits Dooku's choke to his speed. If the author wanted to convey that Kenobi can't break out of the choke because Dooku is too powerful then the quote would've looked like this:
He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too powerful.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
What, is Dooku gonna take his time and let Obi-Wan get an opportunity to defend himself this time? You still haven't given a good reason for why this invalidates that it happened.
He threw Kenobi away fast because of Anakin. Sure he could do it again, but there's no guarantee to the same effect. The thread doesn't specify but in vs threads most of the time the "arena" is a plain ground. If Dooku can't smash Kenobi into something damaging instantly, then he can't do it at all.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
... So Dooku throwing Obi-Wan across the room is less impressive and something he can't do again because, to his luck, there was a balcony for him to drop on the already seemingly unconscious Kenobi? You're seriously grasping at straws here.
You miss the part where he threw him to the railing. I imagine almost breaking your spine might hurt. As I said above, if there's nothing around to smash Kenobi into then it won't work.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Proof?
The junior novel.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Yeah, this sentence sums up your arguing nicely. The junior RotS adaption describes the fight from mostly Kenobi's viewpoint, and how he constantly is aware of Dooku's lightsaber skills and Force powers and that they needn't his powers be any greater than they already are {his thoughts, when Anakin taunts Dooku}. But what, did Kenobi's brain turn inside out which made him, for some incomprehensible reason, not expect that Dooku might want to use those Force powers?
Because Dooku was busy with Anakin and he attacked from behind? Dooku literally interrupts him mid-thought...
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Which he is perfectly capable of, as shown already.
In that instance, in that place.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Which would be what, exactly? Does he need a set of stairs and a balcony for it to work?
Pretty much yeah. If they were fighting in an open field how would've Dooku knock out Kenobi before he breaks out of the choke?
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
If there's a good, reasonable suggestion as to why Dooku wouldn't be able to consistently shit on Kenobi with his Force powers, you haven't made it. Your argument as to why he won't is terrible. It has very little basis to support it in itself and is entirely illogical.
To you perhaps. I call 4 sources as more than a little basis.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
You haven't addressed a single thing. How can you even say this, when this is the first time I bring up the junior novel to you?
But I already brought up the junior novel myself. I write this up too to your short term memory loss.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
facepalmI responded to this dismal argument of yours:
Tell me, do your own points confuse you?
The fact that I said if not for the railing Kenobi might've not been knocked out then you brought up what happened after Kenobi was already smashed into the railing. Like seriously? Get a grip.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
Yeah, I'm sure that Dooku isn't interested in continuing to increase his Force mastery because he's 83 years old. That he wasn't on the battlefield as much as Kenobi is also a terrible point. Neither was Sidious, yet his power grew from TPM to RotS. Either apply the same standards to both characters or have a logical explanation for why you don't. This is neither.
It's not about inclination, it's about ability. The fact that Dooku was pushing 90, and had extensive traning both as a jedi and a sith leaves little room for impovement. Also TPM to RotS is 13 years and Sidious is Dooku's junior by 18 years. It's hilarious that you seriously think Dooku could've improved that much.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
But Dooku would already have beel able to take his lightsabers away from him, or deactivate them, or whatever he would find most effective. Good luck to Obi-Wan without his weapon and barely escaping an attempt on his life from Dooku {if that}.
Based on what lmao? If Kenobi is in a horizontal position he can't keep his lightsaber? He wasn't incapcaitated in any way.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
In this post perhaps, but they were terrible and illogical. So no, not really.
What is terrible, and illogical to you matters little to me.
Originally posted by ~Quesin~
The difference being that I have defended my stance with reasoning and a look on the movie, in addition to addressing your points. In return you've presented a strawman, an ad hominem, completely illogical points and have decided to not address most of mine. Yeah, we're done here, broski. 👆
You completely missed my points several times, you use retarded assumptions based on a screenplay that lacks context and used more ad hominems than I used letters...
Originally posted by carthageThat was well past his prime. That's like saying Jordan loses at fifty years old therefore he loses at age 32. Try to use a reasonable argument in the future.
Maul loses to multiple fodder tier opponents/gets stomped by Ben Kenobi but can challenge DookuKek
Sincerely, Mr. Reasonable