Originally posted by samappo
In response to SW Legengs's criticism of sparring. A vast majority of the best duelists of the Jedi Order were spawned from just sparring. Yoda, Windu, Plo Koon, Qui-Gon etc. Not to mention the arguably best duelist in the mythos, Sidious, fought like three legit Saber duels in his whole life.
👆
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The blurb also states, "But like no Sith Lord ever, he possesses the ultimate power—over life and death."I imagine there's a connection, there.
Not that it matters, though.
That was a different part of the blurb though. The most powerful part is on the back of the hardcover.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I know. My point is they likely inform each other.
Eh, "most powerful sith lord" meaning "best at a particular ability" is a stretch when the informing context is buried in a separate piece of text, and the straightforward interpretation happens to match what Plagueis speculated about himself in the book.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think anyone here has done that. Rather, the blurb is just another piece of evidence that leads us to the same conclusion: Plagueis's own musings, the cosmic threat to the Force, powerscaling from Sidious, etc.
The entire Sheev brigade has done it for years.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
With a nexus.
A nexus? He created the nexus within the Dark Temple as a side effect of his experiments. He's hardly bound to it or reliant upon it:
Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Oricon was created via the power of the Dread Masters, Oricon being immeasurably strong with the dark side. Yet Tenebrae dwarfed them:
"The Dread Masters changed Oricon. Even their combined power is insignificant compared to the Emperor."
- Emperor's Wrath II, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan
Originally posted by The Ellimist
a thousand years of prep.
He planned, he didn't actually prepare the ritual itself for millennia. 😂
Originally posted by The Ellimist
a galactic war, sure.
The HoT prevented all of the individual attempts by the Emperor's agents to cause mass death, yet Tol Braga could've single-handedly triggered the Dark Ritual with his single act of turning Corellia's orbital cannons on a portion of a city. Hall Hood later confirms that any one single act of destruction was enough. Tenebrae was just smart enough to not put all of his eggs in a single basket.
So does that mean the ritual needs two components: FUEL (trillions of deaths over time) and CATALYST (billions of deaths all at once)? And the Hero of Tython foiled the latter?The ritual wasn't that complex. Valkorion was simply working multiple fuel angles at once. The Hero of Tython disrupted the entire ritual and forced the Emperor to halt the Eternal Fleet rampage, at which point he had to re-evaluate his plans.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Plagueis just meditated for a month.
Plagueis had Sidious, so half of the feat can be credited to him.
But beyond that, you've failed to recognised a few extremely important things:
1.Tenebrae expended so much personal energy enacting the ritual that he was weak enough for the HoT to defeat him.
You've learned that the Emperor is on Dromund Kaas, temporarily weakened by your efforts thwarting his plan for galactic annihilation. Striking at him now is your best chance to defeat him once and for all.
- Doomsday, Star Wars The Old Republic
2.He'd just been weakened by his battle with Sel-Makor and the following death of his Voss host prior to all of this.
You have defeated the Voice of the Emperor, who was possessed by Sel-Makor, the being that lives in the Dark Heart.
- The Voice of Darkness, Star Wars The Old Republic
3.He was also simultaneously suppressing Vaylin's immense powers and due to his death at the hands of the HoT, that control was lost.
When most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4, he was no longer able to hide Vaylin's strength from her, and she finally got a taste of her full capabilities.
- 'Vaylin' Codex Entry, Knights of the Fallen Empire, Star Wars The Old Republic
4.When Revan returns and plans to resurrect Tenebrae, Force users across the galaxy are given visions of him rendering the galaxy lifeless.
5.Tenebrae grows massively more powerful when he doom waves Ziost as a spirit, so that ought to make up for it.
With each rebirth, he grew stronger. His machinations became grander. The pain and suffering he unleashed became greater.
- 'The Fall of Valkorion' Codex Entry, Knights of the Eternal Throne
6.It is said that the only reason he doesn't destroy the galaxy after is because he's achieved such power that he no longer fears death. More than that, Zakuul thrived in his absence where the Empire failed. He switches goals from annihilation to a supreme galactic civilisation.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The Force disagrees. But let's break it down more substantively:
I'm glad you asked.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. Tenebrous's master, who by Banite scaling is weaker than Tenebrous and Plagueis, pierces the galaxy wide light side nexus generated by the combined Jedi Order.
Er, no. He brings the dark side of the Force back to prominence in the Force where it had been absent beforehand due to the destruction of the Sith.
One hundred years earlier, Tenebrous's Twi'lek Master had opened a small rend in the fabric of the Force, allowing the dark side to be felt by the Jedi Order for the first time in more than eight hundred years.
- Darth Plagueis
Originally posted by The Ellimist
2. Plagueis and Sidious, both before their primes, knock the Force off balance with about a month of meditation. This is described as a cosmic shift in the Force.
Very impressive stuff. Similar themes are made clear regarding the Emperor's story. Difference being that instead of imbalancing the Force, the Emperor threatens all life in the galaxy.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. Plagueis uses midichlorian manipulation to enhance his own Force potential.
Great stuff, something he achieves after the aforementioned feat. Valkorion on the other hand simply drains planets with millions of Sith.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Due to the above and Plagueis's attempt to create life, the Force births the literal Chosen One to defeat the two Sith - like, the most powerful being in Star Wars history.
Yeah, this used to be the case. However as soon as Mortis came into the picture, this whole claim gets very questionable very quickly.
"Do you feel your destiny? You must see it now. I am dying, and you must replace me."
"Replace you? I can't stay here."
"But this is yours. It has been foretold. The Chosen One will remain to keep my children in balance."
"No."
"I cannot force you to do this. The choice must be yours. But leave and your selfishness shall haunt you and the galaxy."
- The Father and Anakin Skywalker, The Mortis Arc, Star Wars The Clone Wars
In fact, the Son was already getting more powerful by this point:
"You are growing stronger, my son."
"Am I, father?"
"Vanity, however, is getting the better of you."
"How so?"
"You have done what is forbidden. You have chosen the dark side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power."
- The Father and the Son, The Mortis Arc, Star Wars The Clone Wars
The Son is a supreme manifestation of the dark side of the Force, his effect on the balance of the Force would be vastly greater. It seems the Plagueis novel isn't as consequential as you believed.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
5. On Plagueis's death, Sidious receives a massive power boost that further shifts the balance of the Force to the point where the orbits of celestial bodies are described as being altered.
Jesus Christ, Ell. The latter is nothing more than hyperbole.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, even if you don't think it's enough to prove Plagueis > Vitiate by itself, in combination with the blurb and Plagueis's own conclusion I think it's a pretty safe bet.
You may certainly think that.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're welcome to prove that she could actually have done it.
The proof is already there in what Malachor V and its echoes had done. Nihilus being nothing more than one of those echoes. Traya used Meetra's ability to form bonds across the planets as a means to cause an even larger Wound upon Meetra's death. It was either Meetra kills her and proves to Traya that she's wrong or a cascading Wound eventually fvcks up everything.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not "desperate", lol, it's like the catalyst for the central struggle in the Star Wars mythos. Plagueis and Sidious were literally cosmological threats at a level the Force had never seen before.
Nothing you just said is true.
Originally posted by AncientPower
The entire Sheev brigade has done it for years.
No...? It's a very compelling subset of a very compelling collection of evidence. It means that the burden of proof shifts to you to demonstrate that it's clearly wrong, not to say that it *might* be. It means that if my interpretation of Plagueis's feats lean towards the blurb statement but yours don't, mine is probably right.
A nexus? He created the nexus within the Dark Temple as a side effect of his experiments. He's hardly bound to it or reliant upon it:
How does that prove that the Dark Temple or DK as a whole wasn't amping him? Whether he contributed to its creation is irrelevant. Plagueis and Sidious, meanwhile, did their cosmic feats under the noses of the power of the combined Jedi Order. They were doing the opposite in that they were handicapped!
Sidious and Plagueis wrestled with the Force using their own power, while Vitiate used rituals and sorcery and drained from other beings while amping himself with nexuses. And yet the duo's feat is still more cosmically dangerous, because the Force birthed the f*cking Chosen One to stop them. The Force did not view Vitiate as a comparable threat.
Oricon was created via the power of the Dread Masters, Oricon being immeasurably strong with the dark side. Yet Tenebrae dwarfed them:
So what?
He planned, he didn't actually prepare the ritual itself for millennia. 😂
He researched and studied how to do it, obviously, Plagueis and Sidious figured this out in a few decades.
The HoT prevented all of the individual attempts by the Emperor's agents to cause mass death, yet Tol Braga could've single-handedly triggered the Dark Ritual with his single act of turning Corellia's orbital cannons on a portion of a city. Hall Hood later confirms that any one single act of destruction was enough. Tenebrae was just smart enough to not put all of his eggs in a single basket.
lolol so you're saying that the HoT was preventing every death in the galaxy caused from a galactic war? OK then. 🙄
If that were the case, Vitiate could've just genocided a planet and then done the ritual without ever even invading the Republic.
Plagueis had Sidious, so half of the feat can be credited to him.
Sure, while Vitiate had a powerful nexus, rituals and a thousand years of prep. 👆
But beyond that, you've failed to recognised a few extremely important things:1.Tenebrae expended so much personal energy enacting the ritual that he was weak enough for the HoT to defeat him.
So?
2.He'd just been weakened by his battle with Sel-Makor and the following death of his Voss host prior to all of this.3.He was also simultaneously suppressing Vaylin's immense powers and due to his death at the hands of the HoT, that control was lost.
I mean if we want to play this game I could say Plagueis and Sidious were masking themselves from the Jedi while the OT Palpatine has every feat done in the context of constantly dominating the entire imperial military.
4.When Revan returns and plans to resurrect Tenebrae, Force users across the galaxy are given visions of him rendering the galaxy lifeless.
Ok?
5.Tenebrae grows massively more powerful when he doom waves Ziost as a spirit, so that ought to make up for it.
Doesn't really say "massively more powerful", AP.
6.It is said that the only reason he doesn't destroy the galaxy after is because he's achieved such power that he no longer fears death. More than that, Zakuul thrived in his absence where the Empire failed. He switches goals from annihilation to a supreme galactic civilisation.
Lol except then he admits to the Outlander he actually wants to do it anyway.
I'm glad you asked.Er, no. He brings the dark side of the Force back to prominence in the Force where it had been absent beforehand due to the destruction of the Sith.
Yeah, that's what I said. The Jedi had cast a light-side nexus across the galaxy, and he pierced it.
Very impressive stuff. Similar themes are made clear regarding the Emperor's story. Difference being that instead of imbalancing the Force, the Emperor threatens all life in the galaxy.
You can try to downplay this all you want by giving it innocuous labels but every in and out of universe source gives it an enormous amount of gravitas, to the point where Space Jesus was needed to stop them.
Great stuff, something he achieves after the aforementioned feat. Valkorion on the other hand simply drains planets with millions of Sith.
Yes, Plagueis does shit with his own ability and raw power while Valkorion uses nexuses, rituals and planetary populations. 👆
Yeah, this used to be the case. However as soon as Mortis came into the picture, this whole claim gets very questionable very quickly.In fact, the Son was already getting more powerful by this point:
The Son is a supreme manifestation of the dark side of the Force, his effect on the balance of the Force would be vastly greater. It seems the Plagueis novel isn't as consequential as you believed.
No, it's confirmed to be a response to Plagueis and Sidious. (Ant, can you give the source?) And have you considered that the Son may be growing stronger because of Sidious and Plagueis? They described their result as knocking some entity off their throne, it sounds really Mortis-like...
It's pretty unlikely that the Chosen One happens to be born when Sidious and Plagueis do their meddling and that the prophecy is fulfilled on the death of Palpatine, even though the Son had already perished.
Jesus Christ, Ell. The latter is nothing more than hyperbole.
I dunno, the statement is very specific and descriptive, and belabored several times. Even if we take it to be some bizarrely repeated hyperbole, the intent is pretty clear - to try to downplay their dominance as just some "unbalancing" is silly.
You may certainly think that.The proof is already there in what Malachor V and its echoes had done. Nihilus being nothing more than one of those echoes. Traya used Meetra's ability to form bonds across the planets as a means to cause an even larger Wound upon Meetra's death. It was either Meetra kills her and proves to Traya that she's wrong or a cascading Wound eventually fvcks up everything.
?? That proves nothing.
Nothing you just said is true.
Well you can keep