Originally posted by AncientPower
No, I've just been doing this a hell of a lot longer than you have and I've seen what highly rated actually looks like.
See, the paradox arises because you’ve proven time and again that no one should give a flying **** about your opinion on anything, so why should people start now mmm
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's pretty easy to check these things, bro:2g7BwwggxFI&t
20.35.
Yeah, that was the instance I was referring to. You could have just said yes to that.
That's a very localised application of Barrier, but I can accept it being Barrier instead of Deflection or whatever. Moving on.
Uh, yes it is. Appearing to teleport to a Darth (who the game underlines are embodiments of death that only the elite manage to achieve in the most brutal and competitive environment in the mythos) is impressive as hell. It would be impressive to appear that fast to any trained force user. Anakin's ridiculous hyperbole is irrelevant.
I like that you accept Nihilus draining planets with a thought literally but Anakin appearing everywhere at once is suddenly hyperbole.
It doesn't escape me that Lachris isn't fodder in the grand scheme of things. But if we're talking about the higher-ups as we tend to in the versus boards, then yes, she's fodder.
Regardless Lachris was the apprentice of the senior Dark Councillor, was part of the attack on Coruscant, was put in charge of the most important military-industrial planet in the Empire and is said to have never failed in war. She's obviously no chump.
No, but neither is AotC Obi-Wan, who still has far greater demonstrable showings and frankly, hype.
I don't recall any major Sith being on Balmorra at the time, so Lachris' overlording doesn't win her many plaudits from me given her job was primarily administrative from what I could tell. As for the attack on Coruscant, I know it's said that the best of the Empire's warriors were there, but Ven Zallow blitzed several of them, so once again, compared to any decent Jedi or Sith I don't think the bar is set extraordinarily high for just being there. Her apprenticeship to Marr and lack of failure in war are nice and fine but they just don't mean much when we're talking about this level. After all, you technically won't fail in war if you never run into the heavyweights. So I get that she's meant to be good, but if we're comparing her to just about any notable character? She's shit.
He was fighting 6 BM-enhanced badasses at once: the HoT (or others), Marr, Lana, Mandalore, the Wookie and Theron. BM enhances coordination on top of everything else it does so its very unlikely he could get them to trip over each other. The fact is that he was keeping up with the protag, Marr and Lana while getting shot at by the others with a variety of weapons. As I showed, even Marr is extremely fast and he was doubly amped and he's inferior to the protag. This is after Revan had fought and larger strike team of elites and survived largely uninjured. You'd need insane speed to keep up with all of that.
The non-Force sensitives should more or less look like they were standing still compared to Revan. And my point isn't that he got them to trip over each other but that he could position himself closely enough within the saber duelists to make it difficult for people to shoot at him from the outside, etc. Granted, BM provides enhanced coordination, though there's also the question of how great Satele's BM was on Yavin IV. In any case the question of interest is how it compares to Yoda.
I'm not going to delve into the minutiae of the amping and so on again, and I get that Revan has to be incredibly fast to fight them all and not get stomped. I just need the comparison to Yoda. While Revan fighting three enhanced Force users and three non-Force sensitives is nice and dandy, Yoda matching Sidious impresses me considerably more as Sidious outright blitzes three of the most skilled Jedi Masters (you can't attack the B-team for empty hype while you're embellishing the likes of Lachris, lol, and they've actually got good feats at least). You could essentially translate that as Yoda blitzing the B-team.
There's also Yoda in Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter more or less blitzing Plo Koon, Depa Billaba and Saesee Tiin, as he avoided all of their strikes with laughable ease despite hardly moving. Revan faced more enemies, but as far as I can tell Yoda faced not only the faster ones but his performance was quite a few orders of magnitude higher: blitzing >>>>>>> losing, even if he put up a valiant fight. As nice as Revan's feat is, I don't think it puts him "well within" the speed level of Yoda.
It wasn't just some force attacks, Revan runs across a gigantic room twice and uses saber throw among other stuff that happens. A lot of distance is crossed. And you're welcome to debunk it yourself. The novel says "It all happened in the space of only a few seconds."
This is the quote in context:
What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.
It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.
-- The Old Republic: Revan
Revan being electrocuted, T3 firing his flamethrower, Vitiate blowing T3 up and drawing Revan's lightsaber is what took a few seconds. Not the entirety of the fight.
Its a scripted event in the game. It's no less a canon event than the mission log or dialogue. Plus he teleports away in the midst of combat in the Operation fight too.
That's not what's defined as Canon, though. It has to be a story element; ie. if you took it out the story wouldn't function. Just because it's scripted doesn't mean it can't be an embellished gameplay effect.
I was talking about time stop but ok. The First Son proves that its possible to use teleportation in combat rapidly. I never said that it was an infallible ability, just that it would let Valkorion play keep away with Yoda in addition to his other powers. And for all your speculation that it can't be spammed, you've not shown why it can't be. Its instantaneous and doesn't require much effort to do. Therefore there's no reason to dismiss the ability.
"Doesn't require much effort" is your assumption based on them not screaming in exertion when they pull it off, lol. Have you got more substantive proof than that?
The First Son proves you can use it multiple times, but that it still has a limit (when he's defeated, I don't see him doing it there to run away or anything of the sort). My assumption that it can't be spammed interminably rests on the precedent of that literally never being the case. Abeloth and An'ya Kuro have both shown teleportation in a fight, yet once they were both sufficiently expended they failed to do it again. Jadus literally teleported in time to dodge blaster fire but by the end of the fight he was exhausted enough to not be able to teleport out of the Force Cage, lol. Revan and the Dread Masters, apparently both capable of teleportation, still lost their fights. First Son, again, flaunted his teleportation but eventually he couldn't do it anymore.
If you admit that its indistinquishable then you have to admit to its usefulness in combat. Stopping time and instantly forming a powerful barrier or attack against Yoda would easily fend him off or overwhelm him. Yoda was taken by surprise by Sidious multiple times through conventional attacks, Valkorions time stop into instant attacks would utterly overwhelm him.
No, you just didn't read what I said. The reason it's indistinguishable in terms of how much time it takes is because those examples are of the Outlander embracing Valkorion's power, ie. adding Valkorion's power onto his own. That takes zero time, but that's not relevant here. Valkorion already has his own power. There's no counterpart for what the Outlander did in this fight. All Valkorion can do is attack, and whenever that happens the time freeze shit disappears.
As for the rest of this I already proved that its possible to attack with the Force in time stop. Heskal is still frozen when the attack hits him, and Valkorion uses attacks against the Outlander and Vaylin in stopped time.They hit Heskal in frozen time, Valkorion TK's the Outlander in frozen time, Valkorion attempts to subdue Vaylin with the Force in frozen time, the Outlander and Vaylin can walk around in frozen time freely, Vaylin tries to stab the Outlander in frozen time. You're wrong.
Do I need to show you a screenshot? Here:
His head doesn't even move after he gets hit, he's still frozen. But again, this was disproven already. Though an instantaneous attack would still be near impossible for Yoda to defend against since he'd already be hit by it when time resumes as Heskal was.
I've told you before, the presumption is that the Outlander had enough time to land an attack on Heskal before Heskal could complete the attack, even without the time stop. The time stop comes into play where the Outlander just embraces Valkorion's power before doing so. The rest, to me, sound like animation issues, possibly errors. Otherwise if the Outlander had free reign to attack without Heskal being able to react, why not just use a Saber Throw and not bother with accepting Valkorion's power? That's a free kill, surely.
I like that we're debating the fallible animations of a game when we've got explicit evidence from the man himself and other questions to reconcile if it was actual time freeze. Explain to me how we get characters like Arcann being unable to move at times in the time freeze and at other times being able to? It seems like a side-effect of spirit projection to me and that whoever he projects himself to happens to be exempt from the time stops. After all, you always see Valkorion's spirit and you're correspondingly the beneficiary of every single one of these time freezes. Anytime anyone else happens to "see" Valkorion, they're part of it too. That includes the likes of Arcann, who just happens to be excluded from the time freeze whenever he can't see Valkorion's spirit. Anyone else who can't see him looks frozen in time. When everyone in a room can see Valkorion (ie. Senya's DS death), then time doesn't appear frozen at all.
Instead of repeatedly debating animations and whether or not they moved or attacked during the time freeze, let's ask the real question of whether or not it makes narrative sense. Valkorion himself saying time doesn't stop and telling you to choose quickly: does that not suggest that the "power" can't be exploited in the way you suggest? In every instance of the time freeze, you're always asked to accept his power or not. You're never allowed to take advantage of his time bending by just slashing through or saber throwing your frozen enemies, which according to you the player should be able to do given your opponents seemingly can't move while you get a free hit. Whether or not it's actual time freeze or perceptions or whatever, it doesn't seem to have serious combat implications outside of a few gimmicky animations. And your argument that Valkorion can use it on himself to give himself light speed reactions or whatever doesn't seem to have any basis.
I'm not responding to the rest of your other examples as they fall under the same point. If you can break down my underlying reasons for disbelief in the practicality of this "time freeze" thing, then I'll concede to your examples collectively as they all fall under one point.
To clarify, it seems as if the "time stop" is just Valkorion's spirit appearing before someone. If you can see it, you're not frozen. If not, you are. Ta-dah. I don't see it being a thing when he's in the flesh. If there's examples where that's not the case then I'll reconsider.
I already said that I'm only using the phrase "time stop" for convenience. The exact mechanics of what he's doing is unknown, but most likely he's just saying that time is still flowing, just imperceptibly slowly. This is the most likely explanation given the evidence.
I know that you're using the term for convenience. The point doesn't change, whether it's actual time stopping or not. Valkorion makes it abundantly clear that his power isn't some get out of jail free card, and that any action you actually take will be on your own merits.