1/8/2018 - #4A (Ranking FOUR, Round ONE) - Most Powerful Tournament - VOTE!

Originally posted by SunRazer
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As I've said about three times now, Valkorion himself not only states that time has not stopped but that the Outlander needs to "choose quickly". It's clear that this state of mind and external action are completely independent of each other. I'll wait for a reason as to why this thing with Valkorion is any different from Karness Muur in Vector.

You mean this? https://youtu.be/9VgXsdJgyNA?t=224

I don't see what's wrong with this. The entire episode just looks like it played in both their heads. The Outlander collapses right after things go back to normal.

It played out in their heads. That's why Valkorion had to stop Vaylin from killing the Outlander. Makes sense.

Uh-huh, because that was (apparently) the only way he could stop her. There's plenty of instances where characters strike down or come close to striking down someone else in a vision. I assume that if she won the mental confrontation, she'd strike him down IRL.

That seems like why the Outlander appears injured but manages to stand throughout all of Valkorian's shenanigans before randomly collapsing once time goes back to normal.

If it was anything more than that, when Valkorion froze time he wouldn't need to get the Outlander to accept his power against Arcann back in Chapter 8. The Outlander would just take advantage of the frozen time and strike Arcann down, since he could seemingly move despite time being stopped.

Nova was doing good at first but the above mental gymnastics is kinda surprising.

The bottom line is there's no apparent difference between Valkorion doing this and, well, the example I raised with Muur. The fact that he can produce a few tangible effects doesn't mean much since it seems like all the people on the "outside" can perceive those anyway. What they can't perceive are the conversations happening in the "time freeze", which leads me to believe it's in the Outlander's head as Valkorion makes it clear that he doesn't actually stop time.

If the Outlander for actual story reasons and not just animation couldn't actually take advantage of this time freeze when he's supposed to be the beneficiary of it, then there's no reason to assume that anyone else could. And the thing about Valkorion stopping time for himself makes no sense. He's only ever shown this to communicate with someone else as a spirit.

Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]Uh-huh, because that was (apparently) the only way he could stop her. There's plenty of instances where characters strike down or come close to striking down someone else in a vision. I assume that if she won the mental confrontation, she'd strike him down IRL.

That seems like why the Outlander appears injured but manages to stand throughout all of Valkorian's shenanigans before randomly collapsing once time goes back to normal.

If it was anything more than that, when Valkorion froze time he wouldn't need to get the Outlander to accept his power against Arcann back in Chapter 8.

The Outlander would just take advantage of the frozen time and strike Arcann down, since he could seemingly move despite time being stopped.

Guess you'd have to actually know the story to know that though.

@Sunrazer

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except she's noted to have one of the weakest minds in this game? She just overpowers whatever he set into place, hence him using her conditioning to cancel out of her power.

Probably why Valkorion wins and she ends up not killing the Outlander? We know Valkorion ultimately ends up bringing her down through mental shenanigans anyway (the whole "kneel before the dragon of Zakuul" shtick).

If you can give me an alternative explanation for what he's doing as he's "freezing time" and explain how it fits in with everything else we know then that'd be nice.

There's also the fact that in one time freeze moment, we have Arcann not being able to move at all and then Arcann being just as mobile as the Outlander in another scenario. How do you rationalise that unless it's Valkorion's spirit appearing to the minds of whoever is able to move during the "time stop"?

Do people not collapse after extreme injury, even when they are able to stand up seconds before, or does everyone have to collapse after a set amount of time?

Seems pretty coincidental to me that he collapses as soon as Valkorion disappears and time's going back to normal.

Valkorion cannot control the Outlander, their mind is too strong. The only way to overcome this is to slowly erode their mind or him being given control, hence him being able to override the Outlander if given enough control.

See the above. He doesn't know how to control the Outlander yet. He does not form this plan until after Chapter 12 when he pretends to leave.

What does that have to do with the Outlander being able to move and killing Arcann or the various other enemies during the moment of time freeze? The Outlander has always been exempt from the time stop to my knowledge.

I'm aware that Valkorion can't just take over the Outlander's mind. That's the whole point of him pretending to join the Outlander as an ally, is it not?

These rankings are turning out to be typical. Again what is the point?

Originally posted by SunRazer
You mean this? https://youtu.be/9VgXsdJgyNA?t=224

I don't see what's wrong with this. The entire episode just looks like it played in both their heads. The Outlander collapses right after things go back to normal.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Are you legit arguing that Valkorion is only communicating and that Vaylin forced herself into a conversation, that apparently allows her to almost stick a lightsaber into the Outlander?

Only instance I can think off is in the Prologue where Valk is not stopping anything, and only projecting the Outlander from his carbonite prison.

Well, I'm not aware of any other instance. If there's another one, I'd like to see it as well.

No my mistake, I read 'stick a lightsaber in the Outlander' without the almost. Nonetheless the scene where Vaylin impales his projection only sets a precedent for what you were arguing.

In regards to Vaylin breaking into the conversation that only raises the discrepancy of why she didn't do that earlier when Valk 'freezes' time and Vaylin doesn't show any awareness of it or her father.

Seems obvious that he's projecting into her mind in this instance and attempting to dominate her with his powers, which she resists. But if she was in fact breaking free of a freeze ray then Yoda will just do the same. 😬

I was expecting to wake up to a concession. I agree with Ant, these mental gymnastics are odd.

Valkorion doesn't freeze time itself, he creates an illusion of freeze. However, this mysterious power grants him the ability to alter the course of a combat situation or event.

And Yoda doesn't have an answer to virtually every technique or challenge by default. Vaylin learned from her experiences with Valkorion.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He was lying. He straight up tells you he was trapped.

‘He was lying that time, another time he said this and he totally wasn’t lying that time because reasons’.

Nice argument. Shame we’ve literally seen that it’s not true.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It played out in their heads. That's why Valkorion had to stop Vaylin from killing the Outlander. Makes sense.

(Edit: As Beni mentioned, oops): Chapter 2, KOTFE.

You know, when Vaylin attacked the Outlander without them even being physically present.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Nova was doing good at first but the above mental gymnastics is kinda surprising.

I was expecting to wake up to a concession. I agree with Ant, these mental gymnastics are odd.

I just woke up dude.

excuses