Also at one point Valkorion stops time for both the Outlander and Vaylin and Vaylin is able to also walk around and end up in a different spot at the end of the conversation. So Valkorion clearly isn't just affecting his hosts psyche or showing them a vision or any other handwave.
See u in the morning.
@Ellimist - Yeah, that's probably a more pertinent line of questioning. Instead of wasting time dissecting the fight for him, it's probably easier to just ask how it compares to Yoda's and why.
@Neph - Interesting. So he can walk while chatting to Valkorion in his head. Assuming that isn't some sort of animation error, it still doesn't really deviate from my point about the spirit talking to his host. In essence, it seems every time Valkorion "comes out", we get the time meddling. It's almost like a pre-requisite for his communicating with the Outlander. So again, all it seems to be is the fact that he can speak with people without consuming significant real time. I still don't see a real difference compared to Muur and Celeste Morne, and I still don't see it being used in combat for any of the reasons that have been suggested over time.
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Nah, I don't think so. We can look to our sister Comic Book versus forum to see that comparing feats of various characters is nowhere is near as complicated as you're attempting to make it out to be. And I don't believe we need to calibrate every single known application of X's known force powers. Maybe in a respect thread, but for a simple fight, a general assessment of how they perform in combat and any relevant extrinsic evidence that would enhance their chances in the proposed hypothetical scenario would be sufficient. I don't see anything illogical about this method of analysis, but see ample illogic with trying to take statements made by the authors/publishers/dictionaries and use them outside of what they were intended for.
😕 What does any of this have to do with the topic you yourself had brought up? You said that feats were better than accolades because accolades don't line up with authorial intent. Do you have any argument to why feats are better in this regard, and/or any counter to my position to the contrary? All you're doing now is vaguely asserting that they work fine in comic book vs. and saying the inverse of my position with no elaboration or explanation at all.
If they're obviously far better, then lets hear the argument for why they are far better (and preferably without using vague and nebulous non combat showings). Couldn't care less about chest beating PT/OT/TOR brigade nonsense and am happy to change my assessment of things upon being confronted with new or compelling information. ✅
I mean if we equalize Force power under your hypothetical, Sidious has a lightsaber and extensive close quarters combat training, being considered by multiple sources and in multiple demonstrations one of the most prolific duelists in the mythos, while Valkorion has absolutely nothing - there's no indication that he even knows how to use a lightsaber. Even as a trainee Palpatine is taking on hundreds of opponents in physical combat while the one time we see Vitiate holding a lightsaber he barely knows what to do with it and gets disarmed by a saber throw from Meetra Surik.
Galaxy tier combatant is meant by whatever is being insinuated when you mention a "galactic scale force alignment." Suffice to say, I don't believe that it is in any way reflective of the level of sheer combative abilities, much less that you can use it to quantify how well they might fare in a hypothetical battle against Valkorion or whoever.
No, because the fact that cosmic feats can operate on a greater scale than combat feats doesn't mean that ordering characters by cosmic feats doesn't correlate with how you order them by combat feats. E.g. there is obviously a huge scaling factor but that doesn't mean that a scaling factor doesn't exist. Different Force abilities are not performed in isolation; you're harnessing the same general reserves. While having greater cosmic feats doesn't prove that Plagueis would win in a fight, it is a substantial piece of evidence that he would.
@GilletteRazor, you realise that him doing the same to Vaylin completely breaks down your argument that it's only in the Outlander's psyche.
@Ellimissed, you do realise that Valkorion has drained combat knowledge from the likes of Revan and the Hero of Tython and in SoR he two-shots Lana Beniko in a duel, Dooku style. He's not nearly as bad as people think.
I like how this yapping on about Cosmic Force feats keeps going on, when Valk's doing them as side effects of his power. And not to mention he's got scaling over Force users who have nearly as impressive feats as Plagueis does and yet they're considered fodder to him prior to Ziost.
Originally posted by AncientPower
@GilletteRazor, you realise that him doing the same to Vaylin completely breaks down your argument that it's only in the Outlander's psyche.
y tho.
He’s shown the ability to appear to Vaylin and Arcann without the Outlander knowing, and has previously alluded to the fact he can leave the Outlander’s mind whenever he wants if he needs to.
What’s supposedly stopping him from affecting Arcann and Vaylin in the same way?
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
As far as obsessions go making fun of retards is way better than busting a vein over fictional character placements.
Funny how you use that term and yet you're the one coming on here with no actual debates or opinions of any sort.
Oh and I was mocking the point of the thread itself when the results would be blatantly obvious.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also at one point Valkorion stops time for both the Outlander and Vaylin and Vaylin is able to also walk around and end up in a different spot at the end of the conversation. So Valkorion clearly isn't just affecting his hosts psyche or showing them a vision or any other handwave.See u in the morning.
If I said that Valkorion can only affect the mind of his host, then I'll concede on that. However, my comparison to Karness Muur stands. After all, in Vector: Dark Times, we clearly see Muur being able to communicate with Vader as well even if he primarily converses with Celeste as a result of being tethered to her in the same way that Valkorion is tethered to the Outlander. And really, time doesn't ever appear to pass when Muur communicates with someone as a spirit either (a better example of that would be Muur talking with Celeste during her fight with Krayt, which would be suicide if it was real-time talk). Spirit Muur and Valkorion seem to be doing the exact same thing, right down to them asking their hosts to accept their power.
Again, this "time freeze" just happens to be a side-effect of whenever Valkorion chooses to show himself as a spirit. In the flesh, I've no reason to assume it would be a thing, just as it wasn't when Muur actually possessed Celeste and so on.
👆
As I've said about three times now, Valkorion himself not only states that time has not stopped but that the Outlander needs to "choose quickly". It's clear that this state of mind and external action are completely independent of each other. I'll wait for a reason as to why this thing with Valkorion is any different from Karness Muur in Vector.
Valkorian at the end of KOTET, when he gained his full power. Physically dominated the Outlander, while preventing the others from interferring, with his Timestop.
That's already been presented. The entire conversation with Valk's spirit goes unheard to Arcann and Senya. Once Valkorion actually produces a tangible physical effect (lifting the Outlander), the other two immediately notice and run up to him, but they can't do anything anyway.
Valkorion then goes into the Outlander's mind again, triggering that "time-stop" while he converses with the player in his head. The next we see of the "real world", Arcann and Senya are observing him on the throne in a trance, and they start fighting the droids that come in. Then it flashes back to the Outlander's mind. Clearly everything that happens with Valkorion in that instance was in the psyche, except for the telekinetic dominance which produced a tangible, physical effect and was therefore immediately noticed by Arcann and Senya.
Per his own word, Valkorion can't actually stop time, and if he could, the implication would be that as an entity he just entirely transcends time itself, which obviously isn't the case.
