Originally posted by Azronger
If there's gonna be a split between Mace and Plagueis with the PT voters, make sure to do both vs Valk in separate polls, Ant (assuming Valk doesn't win outright).
Ant, this is exactly what I was talking about. They want to rig the entire poll so they can keep spam voting. That's what you allowed them to do last time.
And they keep trying to influence voters into changing last minute.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not really, even when fighting with peak Vaapad, his abilities are still almost entirely relative to the power of his opponent.
Yeah, this is why I don't think Mace is winning this.
He has the potential to match or exceed the main contenders here, but it relies on him having a dark sider near him who's that powerful. On his own? I doubt it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Good point. If we look at the big picture Mace is the least versatile combatant here.But I was also thinking that if at best Windu can match Hego's power output, Plagueis can find a number of ways to undermine him.
Originally posted by Azronger
If there's gonna be a split between Mace and Plagueis with the PT voters, make sure to do both vs Valk in separate polls, Ant (assuming Valk doesn't win outright).
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VALKORION (7):
DarthAnt66
Haschwalth
Nephthys
Total Warrior
AncientPower
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Geistalt
DARTH PLAGUEIS (3):
i_like_swords
Beniboybling
Azronger
MACE WINDU (2):
Rockydonovang
JKBart
Originally posted by Azronger
Also, regarding Mace vs Plagueis, I feel like people are overlooking Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation. Yes, if we assume Mace can contend with Palpatine, he is above Plagueis in power, but Plagueis can circumvent that with by taking control of Mace's midi-chlorians. Literally, he can bypass any power gap and mentally dominate his adversary, strip them of their Force power completely, or kill them outright.Plagueis could simply will Mace to die by killing his midi-chlorians, which he noted was far easier than creating new midi-chlorians. The latter he could achieve faster than Sidious' Force Lightning was able to kill him, so in a fraction of a second. If that's harder than willing someone to die, then he could accomplish killing someone in an even shorter time. Mace would die in less than a second; Plagueis would merely require a stray thought to accomplish it.
everyone should read before commenting on the victor of this match.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Yeah, this is why I don't think Mace is winning this.He has the potential to match or exceed the main contenders here, but it relies on him having a dark sider near him who's that powerful. On his own? I doubt it.
Plagueis on the other hand is confined to being well below TPM Palps.
Independent of Vaapad and even with it the same Windu who was compared favourably with Yoda has been frequently challenged by individuals that Plagueis would annihilate with ease. So I do not find those statements particular pertinent or relevant. And as I recall Gillard relates Windu's ability to go 9 as related to exceptional circumstances (and maybe even the RotS duel alone) i.e. his ability to channel the dark side.
Originally posted by RockydonovangIf anything his MM would neutralise the loop. Plagueis can pretty much program his midi-chlorians to do what he wants, and Windu's power relies on channelling Force energy that passes through those cells.
The super conducting loop would neutralize this, no?
Or alternatively he can just close his windpipe, drain his Force connection, or bury him with projectiles. There are a number of ways Vaapad can be circumvented.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Independent of Vaapad and even with it the same Windu who was compared favourably with Yoda has been frequently challenged by individuals that Plagueis would annihilate with ease.
Mace has the word of god, Gillard's tier system, and even a minority of statements calling him equal or superior to Yoda. Holistically that's a strong case from him being close to Sidious and Yoda.
Mace's vapaad is only an explanation for how he could stalemate Sidious, not how he could compete with him.
And I find that to be sufficient for superiority over Plagueis who likely is eclipsed by EoTPM Sidious by a large margin given
-> Luceno chooses to describe Sidious's power growth(before which he was a virtual equal for Plagueis)as something capable of shaking the alignment of planets and as a gravatic shift. I'm aware this is hyperbole but such hyperbole would only be included if the author was intending Sidious's power growth to be massive.
-> Sidious being much more powerful is supported by his ability to shift the balance of the force on his own, as opposed to Plagueis who needed the help of an equal to perform such a feat.
It stands to reason that TPM Sids is likely >> Plagueis, and that's before a decade plus of growth(it's been explicitly stated he grew in power).
Mace is likely close to ROTS Sidious who's inferior incarnation was already well above Plagueis.
Hence, Mace is likely significantly more impressive of a combatant than Plagueis is.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
The "unamped Windu is close to Palpatine" theory doesn't hold with the novelization that well though.
Didn't the novel have an unamped Mace, off guard as he'd just been thrown out of Vapaad, partially deflecting Palp's TK?
Mace not being able to react to Sidious's inital blitz of Tiin and Kolar can be attributed to shock and either way, the movie, which shows Mace reacting to Sidious even on his initial attack takes precedent.
Originally posted by Azronger
I would also like genuine reasoning from those who voted for Valkorion other than AP, LeGenD or Nephtard why they think he beats Plagueis and if anything can be done to change their minds.
I do not need to rely on a poll to decide which character can do what and stronger than the other.