Originally posted by samappo
Yeah, in the novel Windu can barely react as the b team gets killed. He only managed to match Sidious' because he got time to amp up.
Mace then proceeds to react to multiple attacks from Sidious, both in the novelization and the movie while Fisto is alive despite not having sunk into Vapaad yet.
The whole, "Mace can't even react to Sidious" is easily disprovable nonsense irrelevant of the source you cherrypick.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Mace not being able to react to Sidious's inital blitz of Tiin and Kolar can be attributed to shock and either way, the movie, which shows Mace reacting to Sidious even on his initial attack takes precedent.
The movie doesn't really contradict anything; Mace is "reacting" to Sidious in that he doesn't immediately die, but he's very visibly being driven back. Doesn't the novelization suggest that Mace would've fallen pretty soon after the others had it not been for vaapad, which he may not have time to sink into in a 1 v 1?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
[B]The movie doesn't really contradict anything; Mace is "reacting" to Sidious in that he doesn't immediately die, but he's very visibly being driven back.
Doesn't the novelization suggest that Mace would've fallen pretty soon after the others had it not been for vaapad, which he may not have time to sink into in a 1 v 1?
There's also an off guard Mace partially deflecting Sidious's tk when taken out of Vapaad and the script has an amputee Mace initally deflecting Palp's lightning.
The idea that Mace is an easy out for Sidious is an unsupported one.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
This is difficult. Despite Plagueis's generally greater power, if we consider the particulars of Vaapad and Shatterpoint, Mace at his peak is able to go toe-to-toe with Sidious in a duel.
According to Sidious, though, the Sith grew past the use of lightsabers; he and Plagueis don't need them. Mace wouldn't be able to agglomerate the energies required to replicate the level of performance he had when facing Sidious anyway because said energies where siphoned off of Sidious, who isn't present here. At best Mace can stalemate Plagueis in a lightsaber duel; at worst he gets killed before he knows it by the Muun's tampering of his midi-chlorians.
Vote Darth Plagueis 👆
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Which only suggests inferiority, not that he can't legitmately contend.
Ehh, being able to block some lightsaber strikes while tag teaming the other guy and retreating frantically doesn't really constitute competing.
Nope. Mace is only described as sinking into Vapaad after they'd already been fighting for a sustainedlengthyrn up).There's also an off guard Mace partially deflecting Sidious's tk when taken out of Vapaad and the script has an amputee Mace initally deflecting Palp's lightning.
The idea that Mace is an easy out for Sidious is an unsupported one.
I'd have to read the passage again, as I thought it clearly stated Windu would have fallen soon had it not been for the amp.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh...Mace should be able to function as Sidious level for a period of time w/o any of that stuff.
Perhaps. Going by Gillard's system, the man has ranked Mace as both an 8 and a 9 just like Anakin, and has noted the difference between those levels is the dark side. I'd imagine you're right since Vaapad functions to transmogrify his inner darkness to bolster his combative output, and he had plenty more than usual during the fight at the Chancellor's office. If we assume the same mindset here, he could probably maintain Palpatine's level of power at least for a short period.
Plagueis still kills him, though.
Originally posted by Azronger
facepalm
He's basically stated to be more powerful than at least the Luke that others have seen, can bend back entire turbolaser barrages and has the potential of trillions of beings to draw from. It's as if Vitiate absorbed a thousand Ziosts, but put all the power into amping himself rather than life extension.
The biggest issue for me is how do you even hurt Plagueis? While drunk, totally caught off guard and not erecting any Force defences, Plagueis was out-healing Sidious' full-power lightning, where he drew on the Force more deeply than he ever had.
Now imagine Plagueis sober, combat ready, using all of his defensive and offensive ability. He should be able to repair any damage that gets through nigh-instantly, and the amount of damage getting through is typically going to be less than trying to face-tank lightning from Sidious. The longer the fight goes on, the stronger Plagueis will become.
And then there's the dubious ability of an opponent to defend against their own midichlorians being attacked, albeit Valk and Nihilus are spirits tethering themselves to a body/armour, so they don't have that issue. Unless a loss for them constitutes losing the body or armour and being rendered a disembodied spirit.
If we're asking who the most powerful is overall and in a fight, it has to be Plagueis for me. His power, extremely deep and wide knowledge of the dark side and midichlorian healing make him extremely versatile and hard to actually kill. Add in a unique offensive edge with MM, top-tier lightsaber skill and speed sufficient to oneshot-blitz TPM Maul, and I'm not sure who else here could take him. I'm dubious anyone else is powerful enough save Mace at his very peak, but they're either lacking in offensive/defensive Force options or lacking in the physical/sabers department, or both. Plagueis has a strong mixture of everything you could ask for.
Even Valk's time stop, however the hell that actually works, can be broken out of as seen by Vaylin, so it's clearly not a trump card. Nor does Mace's Vaapad do anything to neutralise Plagueis' Force power advantage.
Excellent post ILS. 👆
Originally posted by ILS
Even Valk's time stop, however the hell that actually works, can be broken out of as seen by Vaylin, so it's clearly not a trump card. Nor does Mace's Vaapad do anything to neutralise Plagueis' Force power advantage.
I dunno how vaapad and MM would interact tbh.
Honestly though, I'd consider putting Caedus, Krayt and suit Vader above Windu depending on the context. Against light-siders Caedus and Krayt probably get the nod, not sure about Vader.