@Neph
Your entire opening point with regards to Anakin is based on the extremely exaggerated material related to the old CW cartoon. It's well out of sync with his standard showings and completely worthless to me. Build your house on concrete instead of sand next time. I appreciate how much effort you put into it though.
The entire EU is “extremely exaggerated” when compared to the movies, but otherwise it is a separate continuity from canon. This was the case before and after the Legends split. However, Lucasfilms did attempt to keep the old EU/legends consistent within itself, which is why there are endless reference books and encyclopedias, all of which reference the events from OCW.
"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
-Lucas on the EU, Starlog #337
The EU is a well of ideas, and there's what's on screen. They don't live in the same universe. Everyone wants to think so, I know. We just need to think of it all as a creative collection of fun ideas separate from what George Lucas has made.
--Behind and Beyond the Battle Lines, Star Wars Insider 34
I’m sure you’re also aware of the famous “foggy window” quote. Posted below for reference, it explains that while the EU is “diligently” looked after in regards to continuity and consistency, there will always be varying interpretations. Exaggeration is only ever discussed in relation to how the material strays from the movies, and given that anything seen in TOR is as far away from the movies as anything in OCW, your complaint is invalid. As Obi-Wan said, many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view, but unfortunately, just your opinion that the OCW is out there isn’t enough to invalidate it.
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies."The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable."The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.' "
--Chris Cerasi, LucasBooks editor
The fact that Nox by themselves was noted as perhaps the strongest Sith in generations, easily capable of overcoming one of the greatest Sith Sorcerers in the Empires history and was able to casually backhand Thanatons extremely potent lightning (judging from 1-shotting a tarentatek 40 years prior with it) when even deflecting it is noted to be "almost impossible" and then can further amplify their power with the combined total of 5 other powerful Force Spirits. Maul doesn't compare.You may be forgetting that Thanaton stabbed the terentatek in the brain and channeled lightning from there; I’m sure most creatures can be one-shotted by brain death.
I’m not seeing how stomping Thanaton or backhanding lightning is better than stomping Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan’s feats in terms of sheer magnitude are just better, as are those belonging to people much weaker than him. Even Obi-Wan’s tree feat is up there with anything I have seen from the protags, and Maul very casually wrecked him. I made a little album of Obi-Wan’s best feats here (https://imgur.com/a/mNA8z), but to draw attention to the tree one:
https://i.imgur.com/WDI3C2h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sz9hoRW.png
1 The falling ship Obi-Wan is rooting himself to makes him look like tiny.
2 From there, he’s able to uproot three giant trees which make his already giant ship look tiny.
We’re all aware of how hard it is to uproot trees as it is, never mind three giant ones while you’re plummeting to the ground attached to a falling ship.
You know perfectly well that I cannot do that. Vitiate is stated to be collapsing the temple and we see it collapsing. That is good enough for me and not for you.
The Jedi Knights storyline on Voss is about a Sith travelling to Sel-Makor so that he can draw on its power to magnify his Force Insanity ability into a planet-wide wave of violent madness. And I'm not sure what you're having trouble with here. Sel-Makor is a godlike entity who could have doomed the galaxy had he escaped Voss, in possession of Vitiates Voice in the center of his Dark Heart, a place so corrupt and powerfully darksided that even the most powerful of Sith turns to gibbering madness in its proximity.
I understand there was a good deal of telepathic f*ckery and other chaos, sure. Just saying Makor is “Godlike” is not a quantifiable feat. He was in his Dark Heart, sure, an area permeated with the dark side, which the Sith Warrior class would likely quite enjoy taking advantage of. As seen in the mission, the Warrior protects himself from the madness-inducing effects by going on a preliminary mission beforehand, no?
You haven’t yet mentioned anything I consider impressive relative to Maul. You’ve thrown some adjectives around with vague allusions to planetary-galaxy level feats, yet you’ve not referred to anything specific or even posted a video. Why do I get the feeling that if I were to look into this further we would find out it’s nowhere near as big a deal as you claim?
So far, Maul is undoubtedly the better duelist, is undoubtedly in possession of better accolades, praise and hype, and appears to have feats of a greater magnitude than Arcann. It could well be a decent fight but I would need to hear a better argument for Arcann winning.
Deronn, perhaps you ought to step up to the plate here.
To put the topic of what is exaggerated and what isn't to rest, I thought I'd share this little gem from Matt Martin, member of the Story Group.
]https://i.imgur.com/H9XCbjA.jpg
TFU and SWTOR are exaggerated in "different ways," and anything "way more powerful than in the films" can be considered exaggerated.
R.I.P?
Originally posted by ILS
To put the topic of what is exaggerated and what isn't to rest, I thought I'd share this little gem from Matt Martin, member of the Story Group.
]https://i.imgur.com/H9XCbjA.jpgTFU and SWTOR are exaggerated in "different ways," and anything "way more powerful than in the films" can be considered exaggerated.
R.I.P?
I really couldn't care less how people respond to leading questions in twitter. Its worth less than garbage to me.
I'll try to reply tomorrow, but this place is low on my list of priorities atm.
Originally posted by ILS
To put the topic of what is exaggerated and what isn't to rest, I thought I'd share this little gem from Matt Martin, member of the Story Group.
]https://i.imgur.com/H9XCbjA.jpgTFU and SWTOR are exaggerated in "different ways," and anything "way more powerful than in the films" can be considered exaggerated.
R.I.P?
May wanna try the link again, the ] got into it and it's not showing up.
Originally posted by Zenwolfhttps://imgur.com/H9XCbjA
May wanna try the link again, the ] got into it and it's not showing up.
or
https://i.imgur.com/H9XCbjA.jpg
Should work.
Originally posted by NephthysUnfortunately, nobody cares about what you personally place value upon either. And it seems much of your argument relies on your personal preferences.
I really couldn't care less how people respond to leading questions in twitter. Its worth less than garbage to me.I'll try to reply tomorrow, but this place is low on my list of priorities atm.
Yeah, when we have random Dark Council members reducing a citadel to rubble, and Thana Vesh as a child unleashing so much devastation that it burned down an entire Kaas city block; which are all towers/skyscrapers, I really don't think any Dreadnought feat or some such is really relevant. Given how massively the main TOR characters scale above people like Thana Vesh(ACT II Wrath killed her in less time than it took a massive base to collapse, and for the Wrath to escape), basically mid-tier TOR character at best, this shit is amateur hour.
Originally posted by ILS
https://imgur.com/H9XCbjAor
https://i.imgur.com/H9XCbjA.jpg
Should work. Unfortunately, nobody cares about what you personally place value upon either. And it seems much of your argument relies on your personal preferences.
The exaggerated argument is pretty dumb anyway, oh TFU and OCW series are exaggerated?
Well what about TOR then? Or Kotor games? The comics/novels?
Originally posted by ILS
Should work. Unfortunately, nobody cares about what you personally place value upon either. And it seems much of your argument relies on your personal preferences.
Someones personal opinion on twitter has as much official weight as what I left in the toilet just now. Furthermore you seem to have misunderstood the situation somewhat. You asked me for some information on some characters which I provided, which you appear to have took as an invitation for a debate. I have no particular interest in that, but I've humored you since you were being somewhat polite up until now.
Originally posted by NephthysYour personal opinion that OCW is too exaggerated to be used is me "building my foundation out of sand rather than concrete," but a member of the Story Group clarifying what it means for a source to be exaggerated is worth throwing in the toilet? Sounds like a double standard to me.
Someones personal opinion on twitter has as much official weight as what I left in the toilet just now. Furthermore you seem to have misunderstood the situation somewhat. You asked me for some information on some characters which I provided, which you appear to have took as an invitation for a debate. I have no particular interest in that, but I've humored you since you were being somewhat polite up until now.
Neph, you spent this whole thread "debating", that is arguing for why Arcann wins, so I'm not sure why you're backing down now.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yeah, when we have random Dark Council members reducing a citadel to rubble, and Thana Vesh as a child unleashing so much devastation that it burned down an entire Kaas city block; which are all towers/skyscrapers, I really don't think any Dreadnought feat or some such is really relevant. Given how massively the main TOR characters scale above people like Thana Vesh(ACT II Wrath killed her in less time than it took a massive base to collapse, and for the Wrath to escape), basically mid-tier TOR character at best, this shit is amateur hour.
My sticks are still bigger than yours.
Also, provide quotes. I don't have access to the codex.
I don't remember well but wasn't the theta storm feat considered by Obi Wan to be something even Yoda would struggle with? That alone would render the "feat by association" thing irrelevant as the feat performed by Anakin is above the capacity of Obi Wan as well.
This brings back the pertinence of Nova's point about Anakin unique status as the Chosen One and his capacity to perform unusual feats, given certain circumtances.
Originally posted by TenebrousWayObi-Wan and others have been dead-wrong about these things before. Case in point: Mace Windu thought Kar Vastor had similar strength in the Force to Yoda, and he had no chance of defeating him; yet in the same book he beats Vastor up. Windu thought Yoda would be incapable of stopping a speeding train in Labyrinth of Evil, which we also know isn't true.
I don't remember well but wasn't the theta storm feat considered by Obi Wan to be something even Yoda would struggle with? That alone would render the "feat by association" thing irrelevant as the feat performed by Anakin is above the capacity of Obi Wan as well.This brings back the pertinence of Nova's point about Anakin unique status as the Chosen One and his capacity to perform unusual feats, given certain circumtances.
So there's nothing suggesting Anakin's feat is only something he can do, given how fallible these characters are.
Here's the Thana Vesh "feat" from the codex, for the record.
"Born into wealth and privilege on Dromund Kaas, Thana Vesh spent her childhood cultivating an explosive temper and destroying everything she laid eyes on. When Thana discovered her talent with the Force, she tested her destructive talents on her military parents' bodyguards. After the eight guard was found broken and mangled, Thana's terrified parents tried to suppress their daughter's power; Thana lashed out, and the resulting devastation burned an entire Kaas City block to the ground."
Thana Vesh, who was not a child at the time, "lashed out" and caused a fire, which burned down the city block. Ouch. Not as good as we thought, yet again.
Originally posted by ILS
Obi-Wan and others have been dead-wrong about these things before. Case in point: Mace Windu thought Kar Vastor had similar strength in the Force to Yoda, and he had no chance of defeating him; yet in the same book he beats Vastor up. Windu thought Yoda would be incapable of stopping a speeding train in Labyrinth of Evil, which we also know isn't true.So there's nothing suggesting Anakin's feat is only something he can do, given how fallible these characters are.
The question isn't what Obi Wan thinks about Yoda's abilities. The relevant point is, by suggesting Yoda would struggle with it, it clearly implies he, himself couldn't replicate the feat, thus rendering the accolades of the early Clone Wars about Obi Wan being more powerful than Anakin invalid regarding the association of this feat in particular.
Presented by such revelation by Kenobi, I'd consider the most reliable course of action to affirm if he could or not replicate Anakin's feat to be the existence of a similar feat performed by Obi Wan as well.
Originally posted by TenebrousWayMace Windu has been wrong about his estimations of self before, and I can certainly find a time where Obi-Wan has been too. So I don't see how character opinions amount to an argument.
The question isn't what Obi Wan thinks about Yoda's abilities. The relevant point is, by suggesting Yoda would struggle with it, it clearly implies he, himself couldn't replicate the feat, thus rendering the accolades of the early Clone Wars about Obi Wan being more powerful than Anakin invalid regarding the association of this feat in particular.Presented by such revelation by Kenobi, I'd consider the most reliable course of action to affirm if he could or not replicate Anakin's feat to be the existence of a similar feat performed by Obi Wan as well.
Originally posted by ILS
Mace Windu has been wrong about his estimations of self before, and I can certainly find a time where Obi-Wan has been too. So I don't see how character opinions amount to an argument.
A character should be an authority about himself. Even in your post above you typed "[...]and I can certainly find a time where[...]" seemly appealing to the exception.
The fact is: Obi Wan doubted if someone vastly more powerful than him could replicate the feat; by association, he certainly didn't believe he could replicate the feat; and he never replicated the feat. Worth of note is the fact Obi Wan's assesment was post facto, so it wasn't based on the preconceptions about the ammount of energy the storm would unleash or how much Force Power Anakin could bring to the table - He witnessed the event and considered himself incapable of replicating it.
So, I'll argue, presented the above, that the evidence weigh far more the side that he can't replicate the feat than the contrary..
Originally posted by TenebrousWayNo, sorry, it's not appealing to an exception, it's simply an observation that characters can be wrong about things; characters don't necessarily know their own limits when all the chips are down. Case-in-point, Windu thought Depa Billaba was his superior in lightsaber combat, he was wrong. At one point, Maul thought he could kill Sidious when previously he couldn't, just due to a change in circumstance, but it doesn't change the fact he was wrong.
A character should be an authority about himself. Even in your post above you typed "[...]and I can certainly find a time where[...]" seemly appealing to the exception.The fact is: Obi Wan doubted if someone vastly more powerful than him could replicate the feat; by association, he certainly didn't believe he could replicate the feat; and he never replicated the feat. Worth of note is the fact Obi Wan's assesment was post facto, so it wasn't based on the preconceptions about the ammount of energy the storm would unleash or how much Force Power Anakin could bring to the table - He witnessed the event and considered himself incapable of replicating it.
So, I'll argue, presented the above, that the evidence weigh far more the side that he can't replicate the feat than the contrary..
I think characters may be an authority about what they can do, to an extent, but their opinions are not limiting factors without evidence. I don't accept that Obi-Wan can place an upper limit on himself he has never tried to exceed that upper limit.
