IndieWire: J.J. Abrams: Star Wars Fans Who Didn't Like TLJ Are Threatened by Women
IndieWire: J.J. Abrams: Star Wars Fans Who Didn't Like TLJ Are Threatened by Women
Eveb though Rey was one of the better things in the last Jedi at least for me. My main criticisms were the Finn/Rose and Holdo/Poe sub plots that weren't needed and made all characters involce look incompetent. Also reusing elements from eps 5 such as the resistance fleet on the run from First Order, in eps 5 it was on a smaller scale aka falcon and Vaders forces. The Snoke throne room was basically an alternate version of eps 6s throne room scene. The Luke and Snoke stuff was fine, but I can understand why it ia almost universally hated.
Originally posted by The Merchant
Eveb though Rey was one of the better things in the last Jedi at least for me. My main criticisms were the Finn/Rose and Holdo/Poe sub plots that weren't needed and made all characters involce look incompetent. Also reusing elements from eps 5 such as the resistance fleet on the run from First Order, in eps 5 it was on a smaller scale aka falcon and Vaders forces. The Snoke throne room was basically an alternate version of eps 6s throne room scene. The Luke and Snoke stuff was fine, but I can understand why it ia almost universally hated.
Both elements were pretty poor, at least the fleet exchange, the throne room was pretty nice though.
But threatened by women?...Hardly, I don't get what it is these days and jumping to the conclusion of
"If you didn't like this story, you're a racist or hate women!"
There are more elements to a story than what skin color or gender the person or people are. In fact, narrowing it down to just those things, make people seem extremely stupid.
Not surprising given that they wrote such an article in the first place, but still.
Originally posted by The LostYou mean the guy that never gave up on his father he barely knew? Who him and Vader helped bring balance to the Force and kill the most powerful thing outside The Ones against all odds? Who pretty much kept up a cheery disposition in a very depressing time, and relied on his friends and Jedi skills to get him through?
How, exactly, was Luke shit on?
And then
Who very seriously thought about killing his nephew at the first hint of the darkseid and pretty much gave up being a jedi altogether, as well as abandoned all his friends and family? In a time of relative peace
Originally posted by One Big Mob
You mean the guy that never gave up on his father he barely knew? Who him and Vader helped bring balance to the Force and kill the most powerful thing outside The Ones against all odds? Who pretty much kept up a cheery disposition in a very depressing time, and relied on his friends and Jedi skills to get him through?And then
Who very seriously thought about killing his nephew at the first hint of the darkseid and pretty much gave up being a jedi altogether, as well as abandoned all his friends and family? In a time of relative peace
This is a pretty lacking interpretation and I've seen it WAY too many times. "Luke's character was destroyed, he'd never contemplate killing his nephew, etc."
I'd also like to point out before starting that a brief and passing thought that left Luke feeling guilt and shame (as he says himself) is not "very seriously" thinking about killing your nephew.
Also, did you just say Luke abandoned his friends and family in a time of relative peace? Luke went into exile after the Jedi Temple was attacked and burned down (dead Jedi included - for free!) so why are you making it seem like Luke had little reason to leave everything behind?
To begin, it's flat-out wrong to say Luke having a brief thought about killing Ben is out of character. This is one of the more absurd criticisms I've seen leveled at TLJ (and the bad criticisms outweigh the good tenfold, I'm finding).
Keep in mind that Yoda straight up tells Kenobi to go kill Anakin whilst he goes off and takes care of Sidious (or tries to, at least) and Kenobi remembers this lesson and informs Luke to take care of Vader. Having capabilities within the force to foresee millions dying from a dark-side threat, you terminate that threat regardless of it's personal cost.
Keep in mind that when Luke has this vision, he has a responsibility that comes before his blood relation and his personal feelings as one of the few remaining galactic authorities/powers. That is why, when Luke sees this vision, his immediate instinct is to quell this rising menace and this is what a leader does. Ending danger before it becomes dangerous. However, he overcomes this almost immediately and is left (like I said previously) feeling guilty and shameful.
With the given circumstances and knowing Luke's character, it's not out of character for him to consider this, no matter how briefly. If he followed through or actually attempted to murder Ben? I could see your point. As it stands now, the point is rather inadequate.
Luke did what Luke has done before and that is sensing and/or witnessing tremendous evil/suffering and trying to extinguish it. This is man who attempted to murder the Emperor, who was unarmed, to save the galaxy from further torment. He internally struggles throughout that and it is consistently in-character for him to do so. Remember when he almost kills Vader as well and has to look at his own artificial hand to reconcile himself in ROTJ?
Luke is not a Qui-Gon and people fail to realize this. He is not a flawless representation of the Jedi or even the light side. Luke is more complicated and Johnson (and the writers) recognized this.
Okay, so, your point about Luke abandoning everyone and his exile? Luke's exile makes considerable sense, especially when compared to Kenobi's exile or Yoda's. They went into exile and hid. Their master plan was to burn time and train another Skywalker to murder a Skywalker that they had previously failed (Anakin). The OT is sacrosanct to many but they waited such a long period of time to do this with Luke. Hell, they waited until they were essentially forced to do it. It was a hell of a risk.
Instead? Luke does not wish to train Rey because he is more aware of the dangers than his previous masters and is trying to extract some wisdom from their mistakes. It's a vicious cycle, right? The Jedi seek out force-sensitive individuals with (usually) a considerable amount of power and then they rise through the ranks and can potentially turn sour (fall to the dark side) and become galactic-scale threats.
Luke wants to break this cycle as opposed to perpetuating it. I think Luke begins to respect the influence and amazing power that a person can bear when they are strong within the force and thinks the Jedi, historically and perhaps more contemporarily, have botched this process. You do not have to support his reasoning but the implication that he left them behind without a decent reason or because of "bad writing" seems absurd.
In this film, Luke and Ben are two sides of the same coin. They wish to leave the past in the past to forge something new and better. Luke seeks to build a new way for the force to be experienced and wielded, separate from what basically amounts to a religion with a dangerous force behind it. Ben wants to build a new identity and create a virtual superpower. Their ideas are both incredibly flawed. Luke eventually realizes this but Ben fails to do so.
This ultimately leads Luke to understand that Ben may be beyond the pull of the dark side and Ben's obvious ambition, regardless of the cost, but Luke understands that Ben may not be so far gone that he cannot atone or discover redemption. Luke passes this responsibility to a younger generation (Rey) who is firmly convinced that Ben can, in fact, be redeemed. Although Luke obviously has concerns about Rey reigniting that cycle, he has an understanding it can birth something unrelated to the tragedies and grievous errors of the Jedi Order.
Luke represents something different in his old age than he did when he was young but maintains the core of who he is and has all of the trademarks of someone who went through this trajectory naturally. It's purposeful character work and has unfortunately gone unnoticed by many.
Originally posted by The LostIt's also leaving things out, but it is the easiest way to see the vast difference in the characters. Hence why you've seen it way too many times.
This is a pretty lacking interpretation and I've seen it WAY too many times. "Luke's character was destroyed, he'd never contemplate killing his nephew, etc."
Originally posted by The LostAre you serious right now? He wasn't feeling very serious about killing his nephew because of guilt and shame?
I'd also like to point out before starting that a brief and passing thought that left Luke feeling guilt and shame (as he says himself) is not "very seriously" thinking about killing your nephew.
He turned an ultra bright loud lightsaber on in his sleep. Then a terrified Kylo either swung or blocked an attack. And somehow knocking A Grand Wizard in Luke out in the process... but I digress.
What would your excuse be had he killed him? That he didn't really kill him because he felt guilty?
Originally posted by The LostI said relative peace in comparison to having his family and friends burned to death and many friends killed in a huge war.
Also, did you just say Luke abandoned his friends and family in a time of relative peace? Luke went into exile after the Jedi Temple was attacked and burned down (dead Jedi included - for free!) so why are you making it seem like Luke had little reason to leave everything behind?
And the whole reason his temple was burned down because he tried to kill his nephew and got ko'ed in the process. It wasn't like out of nowhere his temple was attacked and now he can't see the good in anyone, he shoved Ben to the darkside and paid the price. He even admits he created Kylo, then he turns it around and blames Snoke.
Luke's temple directly got attacked because he was so out of character. Then he went to go die because he was so out of character.
Also the darkside he sensed could and likely was the direct result of Luke's actions pushing him over the edge. Luke should have known this. Luke should have tried to talk to his nephew about this. Luke should have tried something other than standing over a kid with a lightsaber. Someone, who again, tried at every opportunity to turn Vader.
Originally posted by The LostNo, it is. You use Palpatine as a basis for this argument later on, and Palpatine was a nexus a evil, and even then it took a lot for Luke to attack him.
To begin, it's flat-out wrong to say Luke having a brief thought about killing Ben is out of character. This is one of the more absurd criticisms I've seen leveled at TLJ (and the bad criticisms outweigh the good tenfold, I'm finding).
He just senses darkside in child and decides he might very well kill him? That's already conflicting.
Originally posted by The LostYou're contrasting Vader to an at the time innocent child. This should speak for itself.
Keep in mind that Yoda straight up tells Kenobi to go kill Anakin whilst he goes off and takes care of Sidious (or tries to, at least) and Kenobi remembers this lesson and informs Luke to take care of Vader. Having capabilities within the force to foresee millions dying from a dark-side threat, you terminate that threat regardless of it's personal cost.
And having capabilities to foresee millions dying so you should kill them before it happens, is not how the Jedi do things. You're applying the "kill Hitler when he's young" argument to Star Wars, and coincidentally using the same line of logic Palpatine used to kill any force sensitive child he could find so they couldn't oppose him.
I really don't think I have to keep in mind this at all. As with many of your examples. You're all about inventing context and making excuses for Luke acting different in TLJ, but you're pretty freely ignoring very very important context in the examples you compare it to to try and make it seem alright. Oh, Luke killing a child is OK because Yoda told Obi Wan to kill Vader? Oh, well, that's fine I guess.
Originally posted by The LostLike I said before, this is the Sith way. A Jedi if they felt so strongly about this would have simply cut training and kicked him out, or helped him.
Keep in mind that when Luke has this vision, he has a responsibility that comes before his blood relation and his personal feelings as one of the few remaining galactic authorities/powers. That is why, when Luke sees this vision, his immediate instinct is to quell this rising menace and this is what a leader does. Ending danger before it becomes dangerous. However, he overcomes this almost immediately and is left (like I said previously) feeling guilty and shameful.
You're applying false motives to Luke. Motives that don't fit Luke's character... hence why people say he was acting out of character. A lot of what you do in this post is spin your own narrative to try say why things are right, when even you admit Luke is "different" at the end.
The problem is, the people who raise these points don't have to assign motives and make up narratives to come to the conclusion that Luke is acting different and very non Jedi. The very core of your point is that it's alright that Luke did this, and here's why, while very loosely trying to say he's the same without any real backup as to why. You're thinking from a personal viewpoint, and not from an in universe view. A normal person would have killed the kid.
A great Jedi under full approval of Obi Wan/Yoda, and who redeemed Anakin would not. Luke thinking that hardly about it already betrays the Jedi way, and who he was. Especially a family man like Luke.
Though I am glad you admit Luke was a galactic authority/power. That will come up, don't worry.
Originally posted by The LostBut your reasons are basically in full defense of killing the kid. Both the paragraph above this, and the paragraph below are giving reasons why him killing the kid are for the greater good, and he should have. You tried to use Anakin and Palpatine as times when Jedi attempted to kill, and therefore it would have been alright for Luke to do so.
With the given circumstances and knowing Luke's character, it's not out of character for him to consider this, no matter how briefly. If he followed through or actually attempted to murder Ben? I could see your point. As it stands now, the point is rather inadequate.
Which begs the question of why you could only see my point had Luke actually killed him? By all means you are in full defense of it being in character, so what changes? Why could your logic falter if that were the case?
And no it's not in character at all. Luke both before, after and during his final fight with Vader continued to hold out hope he could change him. Him jumping straight to the murder in your sleep wagon after dealing with such a lost cause like Vader and seeing him change don't exactly stay in character for Luke.
And if it wasn't a big deal, it wouldn't have made it to the movie. Evidently something was wrong, and the scene was made for a reason. Even if the intention was just to show Kylo Ben's evil, it still used the wrong character to highlight it. If it wasn't a big deal, it wouldn't have directly thrown Kylo to the dark side and resulted in him burning down the temple and killing a bunch of people. You're trying to minimize the importance of the scene. It happened, he did it, and however fleeting the moment was it had dire consequences. Obi Wan wouldn't have done that shit.
Originally posted by The LostAgain, how are you going to contrast the ultimate evil in Star Wars with a child? Anakin was bad enough. Palpatine though? Surely you see the error here.
Luke did what Luke has done before and that is sensing and/or witnessing tremendous evil/suffering and trying to extinguish it. This is man who attempted to murder the Emperor, who was unarmed, to save the galaxy from further torment. He internally struggles throughout that and it is consistently in-character for him to do so. Remember when he almost kills Vader as well and has to look at his own artificial hand to reconcile himself in ROTJ?
And Palpatine was literally telling Luke he was going to kill all his friends while Luke tried his hardest to hold true to himself. Not only that, but Palpatine was behind the only family he knew for however many years getting burned to death. That Palpatine was blowing up planets previously, and now had another planet destroyer that he was bragging to Luke about.
He almost kills Vader in a fit of rage to overcome him and win the battle. A Grand Wizard Luke is different than a Jedi Knight Luke. And a fit of rage in battle is different than killing a kid in his sleep in a calm state, especially when Luke should be at his peak at that point in time.
Palpatine and Vader were behind decades of murdering people and wiping out the Jedi. It is simply not the same.
Originally posted by The LostHe is not flawless, no. Nobody said that, but he has never been portrayed like he was in TLJ. The fact that he considered murdering a child is not exactly in character. The last we saw of him in films he held out hope that his beyond redemption deadbeat father that he watched murder his mentor and tried to kill his own child (Luke), could be redeemed. That is a very stark contrast to say the least.
Luke is not a Qui-Gon and people fail to realize this. He is not a flawless representation of the Jedi or even the light side. Luke is more complicated and Johnson (and the writers) recognized this.
Even Mark Hamill was pissed about the way he was being portrayed.
And when your only justification for the things Luke did are because ObiWanAnakinYodaEmpireVader under vastly different and more dire situations, that's not exactly telling that the writers understood Luke. The fact that you hear this misunderstood argument so much doesn't speak well for the writers understanding Luke.
The fact that you have to make up your own motivations for what Luke did and why he did it, do not speak well for the writers understanding Luke.
Luke was a complicated character, but he still had a character, who he was quite true to in the OT. Him being complicated doesn't give writers free reign to write him completely out of character in things he would never do prior. I mean, they can write him like that, but it doesn't mean it makes sense.
Originally posted by The LostAgain, your comparisons make no sense.
Okay, so, your point about Luke abandoning everyone and his exile? Luke's exile makes considerable sense, especially when compared to Kenobi's exile or Yoda's. They went into exile and hid. Their master plan was to burn time and train another Skywalker to murder a Skywalker that they had previously failed (Anakin). The OT is sacrosanct to many but they waited such a long period of time to do this with Luke. Hell, they waited until they were essentially forced to do it. It was a hell of a risk.
Palpatine was the absolute power in the galaxy with vast resources and a massive army at his disposal. Yoda and Obi Wan had some wookies and stray Jedi that didn't get instantly murdered on Order 66. There was no way they could fight Palpatine without waiting on an army and more Jedi to train. Obi Wan also had to wait for Luke to mature to even try.
And this was after both of them attempted to turn the tides. Yoda tried to kill Palpatine and failed. In addition to everything else Palpatine had, he was also at least as powerful as Yoda. The only other person who could have helped was Obi Wan and wookies.
There was absolutely no other choice than to run and hide. They could do nothing.
While you already admitted Luke was a galactic power/authority. Already a very big difference. Not only that, but Luke was far and away the most powerful being in the galaxy, with an army behind him that helped defeat the Empire. It is not comparable in the least.
So the question you're left with, is why did it make sense for Luke to exile himself when he could have had help, and lots of it? Why did it make sense for him to abandon his previous friends and family when their own son was involved, and they helped face down the Empire together? Why did it not make sense for him to fight and stop the threat?
Yoda/Obi Wan left because they could do nothing, and needed to manage the next Jedi. Luke just left to die. And we'll touch upon something I just said.
What Luke actually said.
He said he would never train another Jedi and he came to the planet to die. He gave up. He gave up hope. He gave up everything. He threw away the lightsaber, and referred to it as a lasersword - the thing that previously helped save the galaxy. He wasn't even going to do anything at all until R2 relayed the message that started his entire journey.
It is not even remotely similar.
Originally posted by The LostWell, skipping why he closed himself off from the force, and why he exiled himself...
Instead? Luke does not wish to train Rey because he is more aware of the dangers than his previous masters and is trying to extract some wisdom from their mistakes. It's a vicious cycle, right? The Jedi seek out force-sensitive individuals with (usually) a considerable amount of power and then they rise through the ranks and can potentially turn sour (fall to the dark side) and become galactic-scale threats.
The first time he tested Rey with the Force she went immediately to the dark side without even really trying to stop. That doesn't line up with you saying it's alright to kill kids and your current rationalization with why things are happening. The fact that he continues to train her don't go with your in character of him, nor is it even in character of his current motives considering he told her that shit is done.
I will admit, this is one of the few times he is in character, in a movie full of character assassination. Luke saw the good in her, and continued to try.
And he couldn't even sense Rey in the first place, likely because he closed himself off, but that seems like something you'd use to sense new people, especially when they already know who you are.
Luke didn't want to train her though because he gave up. Not because he didn't want to have another pupil turn. Then like the first thing that happens has him feel the same type of conflict that was in Kylo and he goes, oh well, might as well train you anyway?
That's not some history lesson of going against the old ways, that's him directly not following your made up motivations.
Originally posted by The LostWell, what I said above, and in addition:
Luke wants to break this cycle as opposed to perpetuating it. I think Luke begins to respect the influence and amazing power that a person can bear when they are strong within the force and thinks the Jedi, historically and perhaps more contemporarily, have botched this process. You do not have to support his reasoning but the implication that he left them behind without a decent reason or because of "bad writing" seems absurd.
Luke tried to burn all the texts and the last trace of the Jedi because Rey proved him wrong. Yoda had to do it for him to prove him wrong. Then he immediately went back on that.
Luke didn't even know what he was doing. And he still thought he was weak, and couldn't properly teach Rey. And Luke only begins thinking the Jedi way needs to die after Rey shows up. He then sees this way was wrong.
Luke had no motivations beyond dwelling on his mistakes, and thinking the Jedi were failures. Luke was simply not Luke in this movie. And only after Yoda talks sense in him does he see begin to be Luke again. IE, the movie itself says that everything Luke did up to that point were stupid, and Yoda says failure is the greatest teacher. Which means Luke failed, yet the movie made that seem somewhat good (even though everything that happens could be assumed to be heavily Luke's fault)
Luke at that time should have been on or near Yoda's level in understanding. He was not.
Originally posted by The LostCome on man, you know that's not what Luke was doing. Luke himself cut himself off from the force until Rey came. Then Luke just tries to teach one pupil one way. And goes all over the place with the reasons for it.
In this film, Luke and Ben are two sides of the same coin. They wish to leave the past in the past to forge something new and better. Luke seeks to build a new way for the force to be experienced and wielded, separate from what basically amounts to a religion with a dangerous force behind it. Ben wants to build a new identity and create a virtual superpower. Their ideas are both incredibly flawed. Luke eventually realizes this but Ben fails to do so.
But you admitting Luke's reasoning was flawed doesn't exactly bode well for him being completely in character and written well. If it was flawed, how was he the same character? If he acted nothing like the old Luke, how was he the same?
Ben doesn't matter so much, but I wouldn't exactly say they're two sides of the same coin. Both conflicted yes, but the conflict doesn't mean ying and yang, nor does it mean one of the character's conflicts fits within the character.
Also, you're making up your own motivations for why it's right again. I could do that as well to back up my side, but the crazy thing is, I don't have to. You see where the issue lies here?
Originally posted by The LostThe whole first sentence is exactly what I'm saying Luke should have realized instead of going to kill him in his sleep. Because that is exactly the way the old Luke would have handled it from the start. You know this, except you deny it so. Why? Luke in character would have done all he could without turning a lightsaber on on Ben in his sleep. Because he would have believed he could be redeemed.
This ultimately leads Luke to understand that Ben may be beyond the pull of the dark side and Ben's obvious ambition, regardless of the cost, but Luke understands that Ben may not be so far gone that he cannot atone or discover redemption. Luke passes this responsibility to a younger generation (Rey) who is firmly convinced that Ben can, in fact, be redeemed. Although Luke obviously has concerns about Rey reigniting that cycle, he has an understanding it can birth something unrelated to the tragedies and grievous errors of the Jedi Order.
Luke didn't pass shit to Rey. She bested him in a fight because why not, and then she left without her training being complete, and then Luke threw a hissy fit. Luke was fully under the guise that Ben was irredeemable when he last spoke to Rey. He even says Snoke had his skeletal little fingers too deep in his arsehole. Those exact words. Rey learned everything from the mistakes of Luke, and Yoda confirms it. Luke was not instilling mass morality lessons of his own intent. Luke and Ben were cautionary tales.
Rey and Yoda passed that hope onto Luke, not the other way around. After they show Luke the hope and way of the Jedi, he starts realizing hey, I might actually believe I can help this kid I scared half to death in his sleep, and who lashed out at everything.
Originally posted by The Lost
Luke represents something different in his old age than he did when he was young but maintains the core of who he is and has all of the trademarks of someone who went through this trajectory naturally. It's purposeful character work and has unfortunately gone unnoticed by many.
Luke blamed the Jedi for Darth Sidious rising to power. That's not really a natural path to lead to. That's not the core of who he was.
Not only that, but he ran away to die because his student turned on him and killed a bunch of other students. Again, not the core of who he was. The core of who he was was not a moping coward.
Basically to sum up Luke in the movie.
He wanted to kill a child. Then he just wanted to die and be left alone while giving up the force. Then he wanted to burn the Jedi way. Then he realized the Jedi were kind of alright.
What did he represent in his old age? And at what stage did he represent this?
There's more I could say, but I feel this is enough for now. I didn't want to go into a third post, but that's life, and I'm fully in character.
Basically, I think Luke was not fully in character, and his massive shifts between like four different characters don't exactly prove me wrong. And the fact that Luke went through all these changes make me think Luke got shit on as a character.
He was not the Jedi to use to prove these kind of points.
He was supposed to be the all powerful Grand Wizard with a Justin Bieber Never say Never attitude that could see the good in people, loved his family and friends, that didn't seriously contemplate killing nephews in his sleep. At least I don't think the OT gave off the vibe of child murderer in it.
TLJ VS TFA
What it Offers SW:
TFA: Renders the prior saga pointless
TLJ: Offers something new(a less archaic jedi) and ensures that the ST will at least set up a new knd of story in the next trilogy
TLJ Stomps.
Acting:
-> Mark Hamil and Andy Serkis put up much better performances than Ridley or Ford did in TFA, the latter two having the best performances in TFA
-> Adam Driver perfoms much better in TLJ than TFA masterfully conveying his character's conflict, anger, and conviction. His acting both when contemplating what to do with his mom and the helmet scene are vastly above anything he pulls off in TFA.
-> Boyega performs just as well as he does in TFA though he's now given much better material.
-> Ridley's performance has improved as improved as wella s she's impressively conveying a greater range of emotions. Scenes that standout to me are the ones where she sees her reflection and where she is being trained by Luke.
TLJ Stomps.
Dialogue:
Virtually any of the dialogue from Snoke, Yoda, and Most of the dialogue from Luke stands well above anything we get from TFA save for some of the lines harrison ford is given.
The returning cast are also given much better material to work with. "Let the past die"for example is unmatched by dialogue Ren is given in TFA.
TLJ Stomps.
Characertization:
Luke is given better character development than anyone in TFA. Ren's character development in TLJ is also above anything we see out of TFA where the chatacter development is less about character growth but more about a changing status quo for the characters.
TLJ Stomps.
Cinematography: TLJ is less flashy but more focused resulting in a more compelling visuals. the attention to detail i TLJ is on another level from what we see in TFA. TLJ also has a variety of powerful symbols that TFA lacks. Take Ren making sand marks as Luke does not, the crushed mask, the dice ect.
TLJ wins decisively.
Story:
TLJ exposits far less and as a result it's story feels more like an experience than a summary. TLJ trusts the reader to piece together what is going on. TFA at times gets bogged down with exposition and tells rather than shows the reader what it's trying to say.
TLJ's story is far more powerful thematically. TFA's theme is generic and not all that meaningful outside of the context it's set in. TLJ conveys an important message regarding failure and moving on and conveys this message powerfully with a barrage of meaningful symbols, iconic scenes, and strong dialogue.
Finally, TLJ is mostly original. While it was a bit heavy with material from rotj in snoke's final scene, it's still vastly more original than TFA which more or less copy and pasted TFA's plot. And don't bs me with how the PT copies the OT too, it doesn't. The PT mirrors the OT, but it tells a completely orginal story. TFA set up the ST to be a reboot, TLJ ensureed the ST will be it's own story that adds something to the lore rather than try to retell it.
Again TLJ Stomps.
Overall:
TLJ tells a much better story, adds to the lore(rather than retelling it), executes it's story better, and has significantly better visual direction.
It's both a far better movie than TFA technically and offers much more as a SW movie.
TLJ for the win.
Also:
-> Luke going into exile was TFA's decision, not TLJ's
-> Luke did not attack Ren and never considiered killing Ren. He ignited his light saber in an involuntary reaction to emotion and then immediately regretted that decision.
-> Luke wanting to break the jedi order as we know it is perfectly in character. You might recall the climax of the OT has Luke disregarding both Yoda and Ben's advice to redeem his father. Luke is also perfectly accurate in blaming the order for Sidious' rise to power as it was indeed their arrogance and incompetency that allowed Sidious to take control.
Originally posted by RockydonovangAnd they expanded and ran with it. And his reason for going into exile was because of his failure with adequately dealing with his nephew. Which TLJ showed in detail.
Also:
-> Luke going into exile was TFA's decision, not TLJ's
-> Luke did not attack Ren and never considiered killing Ren. He ignited his light saber in an involuntary reaction to emotion and then immediately regretted that decision.
-> Luke wanting to break the jedi order as we know it is perfectly in character. You might recall the climax of the OT has Luke disregarding both Yoda and Ben's advice to redeem his father. Luke is also perfectly accurate in blaming the order for Sidious' rise to power as it was indeed their arrogance and incompetency that allowed Sidious to take control.
I don't stand over loved ones firing warning shots into the ceiling with a gun. Him knowing his actions were wrong don't erase it from happening.
Also it's unclear if Luke swung at Benlo or simply blocked when looking at both scenes. Either way he did nothing to dissuade Ben from thinking he was going to die when he saw a terrified kid, until it was completely too late. And then he got knocked out...
How is trying to redeem Vader wanting to break the Jedi order? They simply thought Luke could not accomplish it. They thought Vader beyond redemption. I don't feel like rewatching the movie again to know there was no conversation that said Luke hates Jedi and he's going to bring the whole thing down. Daddy son time now.
The fact that they were seen as light side force ghosts smiling with Luke at the end doesn't portray Luke breaking the order.
Luke was fully entrenched in the Jedi ways at the end of the OT, and even up till child murdering in TLJ summary of the last few years.
You don't celebrate Yub Nub with force ghosts and then decide the Jedi are stupid.
Also, Palpatine manipulated the Jedi entirely. That's the whole point of Palpatine's feat there. You can't blame the Jedi more than Sidious there with a straight face. Luke should know this.