IndieWire: J.J. Abrams: Star Wars Fans Who Didn't Like TLJ Are Threatened by Women

Started by Nephthys5 pages

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Of which he has more self controlled than that. And he specifically went there in the night to see if Ben had the darkside in him because he sensed some crazy shit going on with him. It wasn't like he was implanted those visions against his will.

He went in there to read his mind just like he went in there to redeem Vader. Don't try and tell me he wouldn't have tried to restrain himself from what he saw. He's the one who knew the possibilities.
And he reacted this way against a defenseless innocent child at the time. Not a giant robotdad threatening him with a lightsaber and everyone he knew... with actual very real and quite urgent threats.

Would you walk in on that family member sleeping and cock a gun back though?

I realize what he was doing, but you saying things like "knee jerk reaction" and "reacting badly" don't exactly speak in ways to act like I am being silly. Nor does saying things like it only being instinct like he's an animal with no self control and therefore "out of character" help to prove he was in character.

It doesn't matter how short it was. It doesn't matter if Palpatine kills people in their sleep. All I'm saying is it was out of character for him, and it basically started Kylo down a bad path. The direct path he wanted to avoid. And Luke should have been better prepared than this especially with decades more Jedi training than what he had against Vader.

More self controlled than what? He lost his self control in both instances. And as Galan pointed out he also tries to strike Sidious down in anger previously. He went to see what was up with him but he was shocked by the extent of Bens corruption. Up to that point he probably thought he could be easily redeemed. He had those visions and freaked out as anyone easily could have.

Its literally spelled out that Luke was completely shocked by Snokes total corruption of Ben. I don't know why you're trying to argue this point, its literally what happens. If you want to try and argue against the movie I don't think you'll get anywhere. And he had no idea he'd have to restrain himself, it hadn't even crossed his mind. He was completely shocked. You keep on pointing out that Ben was "a defenseless innocent child" as if that isn't the entire goddamn point. Obviously it was a huge mistake, congratulations you figured out the plot of the movie.

If I snuck in and found out they planned to shoot up my school I'd immediately think about stopping them.

It isn't like I'm just saying those things, that is actually what happens in the movie. I don't know why you're complaining about it, Luke factually has a momentary bad reaction and then restrains himself. And as I have pointed out, it isn't out of character for him to react emotionally in the moment. Yes, it started Kylo down the wrong path. That's why it was such a huge mistake that he fled to an island in shame. That's the plot of the movie.

Originally posted by Nephthys
More self controlled than what? He lost his self control in both instances. And as Galan pointed out he also tries to strike Sidious down in anger previously. He went to see what was up with him but he was shocked by the extent of Bens corruption. Up to that point he probably thought he could be easily redeemed. He had those visions and freaked out as anyone easily could have.

Its literally spelled out that Luke was completely shocked by Snokes total corruption of Ben. I don't know why you're trying to argue this point, its literally what happens. If you want to try and argue against the movie I don't think you'll get anywhere. And he had no idea he'd have to restrain himself, it hadn't even crossed his mind. He was completely shocked. You keep on pointing out that Ben was "a defenseless innocent child" as if that isn't the entire goddamn point. Obviously it was a huge mistake, congratulations you figured out the plot of the movie.

If I snuck in and found out they planned to shoot up my school I'd immediately think about stopping them.

It isn't like I'm just saying those things, that is actually what happens in the movie. I don't know why you're complaining about it, Luke factually has a momentary bad reaction and then restrains himself. And as I have pointed out, it isn't out of character for him to react emotionally in the moment. Yes, it started Kylo down the wrong path. That's why it was such a huge mistake that he fled to an island in shame. That's the plot of the movie.

Half of your points are you pretending I'm arguing against the movie. I am not arguing against the movie. My entire point is that it was out of character for Luke and went over the line. Among some of my other original points, but no one actually read what I wrote, they just jumped in. Hence shit like Palpatine and Vader being presented to me like it's some new point.
My original argument was that Luke was shit on in the movie, him acting out of character was part of it while The Lost acted like being a child murderer would have been ok had it happened (paraphrasing). And him acting out of character had more to do with it than him trying to kill a child, but I digress, here we are. Being accused of going against the movie by people who can't even read the argument yet want to jump right in.

I fully accept what happened in the movie. I never said something didn't happen or doesn't count. I'm saying it did happen and it doesn't jive with what we previously thought of Luke.

That being said, let's go with it. I will soon be getting my laptop since I'm tired of phone typing, in a way to better explain myself. I probably made a typo too if you guys want to hop in on it as well.

More self control than slowly grabbing his lightsaber and igniting it. There's quite a window to stopping it in that timeframe. There's quite a window for him to stop holding his lightsaber at Ben. There's quite a window to have not even tried it in the first place for that matter.

"The movie said it, not me"

Yes, I know he was shocked. I am not arguing that. There's a difference between being shocked and immediately threatened by present danger though. The fact that he held himself together so long in the OT prove he can keep it together for quite some time. Luke knew Kylo was a threat DOWN THE LINE, he was not immediately in danger like the other times he lashes out against present evil.

And yes, he was going in there in the night armed to read Ben's mind, but he had no idea he'd have to restrain himself? He wasn't going in there to get the secret to Ben's titty milk cheesecake, he was going in there to tell how bad he was. That's not something you do in an impulsive state.

And why would a defenseless innocent child be relevant? Would it be because that's what he was? Was it because you in this post just compared him to Palpatine's reaction from Luke? Why would I feel the need to repeat this I wonder?
I know what the point was, I covered the point. The problem is, I still feel it was out of character for Luke to do this. You guys continuing to say it was a bad idea, instinctual, Jedis make shit decisions, knee jerk, and whatever other way you want to spin it don't exactly throw me in the other direction with this.
Especially when it personally leads Kylo down that path, and hence why I bring it up. Because it was a really bad idea.

Luke's previous outbursts were against present evil right now, threatening him and all his friends right to his face. Yoda/Obi Wan told him Vader couldn't be redeemed and in general was a piece of shit. Luke still tried. And even from this irredeemable piece of shit, it took immense prodding to set Luke off. Luke helped this man get back to the lightside.
Ben shocked him with visions of the future. The Empire was essentially holding everyone he ever knew hostage and telling Luke they'd pull the trigger, now.

Even if you don't think Luke seriously thinking about killing his nephew was out of place, he gave up. He gave up at the time. He gave up years later, and he gave up until Rey and Yoda showed him a different light. Is this out of character?

If after the OT someone came to you and told you Luke would turn his saber on on his nephew in his sleep because he sensed immense evil after having sensed little things would you be like "That sounds like Luke all right"?

To be honest, J. J. Abrams should keep his mouth shut.

I enjoyed TLJ but I cannot presume that everybody will enjoy it and/or praise every aspect of it.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
You don't activate your insta killing weapon without the intent to kill. He didn't want to hurt him, he just turned on his lightsaber to see if that was a fly in the corner. He stopped himself from doing it, but his first intention was to kill Kylo. That much is obvious.
In fact, you literally posted a summary that said he did
Luke:_"[Ben] would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become... [b]And for the briefest moment I thought I could stop it *ignites his lightsaber*
[...] It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence *stands woefully staring at his saber* [...] And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him *Ben summons his saber and attacks; Luke defends*"[/B]
K? I have literally acknowledged...in every single post of mine...that Luke THOUGHT about killing Ben. However, that thought was extremely short-lived, as in the very next sentence Luke says: "...It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence."

Originally posted by One Big Mob
He stopped himself before he pulled the pushed the one shot kill button. But that doesn't mean he didn't try. And arguing this is severe semantics. He didn't try and kill him, he just pulled out his lightsaber and stood over him while he was sleeping. I didn't try to kill the police, I was just pointing a gun at them. Makes no difference.
He didn't swing, but the thought very much occured.
First off, Luke did NOT "try" to kill Ben -- thinking about the deed =/= attempting it. On that note, you're acting as though Luke *thinking* about killing Ben is just as bad as him *actually* doing it. That couldn't be more incorrect.

I might *think* about killing anyone who would pay money to go to a Nickelback concert(cuz it's f*cking Nickelback), but that certainly doesn't make me a mass murderer irl.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Vos was a wildcard, I agree. And I understand the Jedi endorsed it. The fact that you personally called it a shit decision meant I don't care. Comparing shit decisions to shit decisions doesn't mean one is automatically correct.
Again, that instance merely illustrates the fact that ANY Jedi(even seasoned and highly respected Masters like Yoda and Mace) can become desperate enough to do shit they otherwise might never consider... And that's the point.

For the briefest of moments Luke *thought* about killing Ben because he sensed his future -- sensed all the pain and suffering he would cause. However, Luke ultimately could not bring himself to pull the proverbial trigger, and instantly regretted his decision... As I mentioned above, he certainly isn't the first Jedi who has been that desperate, and he likely won't be the last. Difference is, Luke ultimately showed a LOT of restraint where others may not have.

Dunno, I guess that part of Luke's characterization just didn't bother me as much as it did you. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
K? I have literally acknowledged...in every single post of mine...that Luke THOUGHT about killing Ben. However, that thought was extremely short-lived, as in the very next sentence Luke says: "...It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence."

First off, Luke did NOT "try" to kill Ben -- thinking about the deed =/= attempting it. On that note, you're acting as though Luke *thinking* about killing Ben is just as bad as him *actually* doing it. That couldn't be more incorrect.

I might *think* about killing anyone who would pay money to go to a Nickelback concert(cuz it's f*cking Nickelback), but that certainly doesn't make me a mass murderer irl.

Again, that instance merely illustrates the fact that ANY Jedi(even seasoned and highly respected Masters like Yoda and Mace) can become desperate enough to do shit they otherwise might never consider... And that's the point.

For the briefest of moments Luke *thought* about killing Ben because he sensed his future -- sensed all the pain and suffering he would cause. However, Luke ultimately could not bring himself to pull the proverbial trigger, and instantly regretted his decision... As I mentioned above, he certainly isn't the first Jedi who has been that desperate, and he likely won't be the last. Difference is, Luke ultimately showed a LOT of restraint where others may not have.

Dunno, I guess that part of Luke's characterization just didn't bother me as much as it did you. /shrug

It's as far away from thought as it is from trying in that instance. I just lack the word for it for some reason. Attempted try?
It is equivalent to going into someone's room with a gun and firing it into the ceiling for a Jedi. You did not swing, but it passed thought. Whatever you want to call it, it was stupid.

Had he just sat there holding the saber it'd be one thing. That is thought. The fact that he ignited a flashlight in the room is another. That is action. Had he swung, that is try. So, he acted at the very least.

And no, I don't think it's as bad. That comes from you homos who keep throwing around Jedi killings like it would possibly exempt Luke killing him. My thoughts on the issue are different than my reactions to your examples.
And what I compared it to was trying to kill and what Luke did, not the actual act of murdering. That's why I said "I didn't try and kill the police, I just pointed the gun at them". It really makes no difference in Luke's portrayal, and how Ben saw him. It's simply semantics at that point. Luke's act was sketchy enough. Adding two more arsehole points doesn't change it too much. It was still something that shouldn't have happened.
Luke sitting there holding the lightsaber would have been a perfectly acceptable thing to show his conflict, but there needed to be something deeper to skip fleshing out Ben's backstory. It was cheap. It was a leapfrog to character development at the cost of another.

Though I would hope you'd go past thinking on the Nickleback slayings.

Desperation is not something I'd attribute to Luke. Like I said before, it was a "kill baby Hitler". What the Jedi did was "kill sleeping Hitler". It's a moral issue, and one the Jedi apparently condone, and one I don't think any would condone. Even with lax morals, I think any of them would admit killing Baby Sheev would ultimately be too much. Though they'd most certainly watch him.
Again, I know he didn't kill Bendolf Skyhitler. I'm just following your examples to the conclusion. And I don't think you'd see any Jedi worth their salt standing over an (at the time) innocent child with a bladed sun thinking about killing.

Believe it or not it is one of the things that bugs me the least. It's just a way to highlight the difference. When you have to go back quite a few decades worth of Jedi training to find Luke lashing out at pure evil before redeeming his evil everyone-murdering father, to try and say him holding a blade over his nephew he sensed had evil is perfectly in character... I don't think it is.

Luke being a mopey "weak" pussy bothers me more than anything. It's like he learned nothing from the OT. He had character development, but he didn't need it. Hell he had more character development than Rey for ****s sake, only to revert back into his OT self. There were better ways to handle him. Even with the way he was handled, there were better lines to use as to why he was a coward.
And lots of other stuff. I just think the child threatening is the simplest to use, and what you guys were having issues with. Apparently not so simple.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke barely stopped himself from killing Vader after going on a berserk frenzy against him. People seriously idealise the man, to think that he couldn't have a momentary lapse in restraint.
I agree and the criticisms of Luke are just based off their own pre watched film checklists. Since he wasn't the same Luke and actually evolved through experiences people want to act like Luke isn't like every other character who has appeared in multi film arcs.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't even talking about you in particular. Its a stupid thing that just keeps coming up.

The difference is that Luke realised what he was doing and stopped almost instantly in Bens room while he went Boo Radley on Vader. Other than that it was a similar moment of being overwhelmed by emotion. He saw a glimpse of Ben destroying the Jedi and reacted without thinking. It happens, he's only human.

👆

Suck my farts quan. Rey is taking out your boy Ren next movie.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Suck my farts quan. Rey is taking out your boy Ren next movie.
Snoke is my boy and he's beyond direct conflict. Only way you can take him out is while his guard is down.

Ren will probably kick the shit out of her but she will somehow prevail since the good guy/skank wins at the end.

😂

What if Finn pulled off the finisher? Either through a cheapshot or they reversed the last fight in TFA and Finn beat him down and killed him?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
😂

What if Finn pulled off the finisher? Either through a cheapshot or they reversed the last fight in TFA and Finn beat him down and killed him?

Did you just steal my glorious sig ? I always thought well of my northern neighbors and never in my darkest nightmares would imagine they'd commit a ninth circle level sin and sig steal.

I do hope Finn dies and via Ren finishing what he started in episode seven.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you just steal my glorious sig ? I always thought well of my northern neighbors and never in my darkest nightmares would imagine they'd commit a ninth circle level sin and sig steal.

I do hope Finn dies and via Ren finishing what he started in episode seven.

Yours is all the way to the left though. I don't even see the similarity tbh. 😬

I don't even know what I want anymore. The best I'm hoping for is a full on lightsaber battle.
Maybe redeem Luke, maybe... and probably should leave him alone. Maybe a shot at the end where he's making a tittymilk face and that's it.

Or the pull a Force Unleashed and go overboard with really stupid shit. Rey drops a star destroyer on Ren

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Yours is all the way to the left though. I don't even see the similarity tbh. 😬

I don't even know what I want anymore. The best I'm hoping for is a full on lightsaber battle.
Maybe redeem Luke, maybe... and probably should leave him alone. Maybe a shot at the end where he's making a tittymilk face and that's it.

Or the pull a Force Unleashed and go overboard with really stupid shit. Rey drops a star destroyer on Ren

Yeah you're right mine is to the left and yours is to the right. Different Mauls altogether.

**** Luke Snoke stole the film. His voice, his robe, his pretense, his fingernails, his force rape of Rey with the, "Give me everything," line. Comes out digitally March 13 and you weren't here when I announced its my favorite Star Wars film slightly ahead of Rots. Rian Johnson "looped" me in with the Last Jedi.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah you're right mine is to the left and yours is to the right. Different Mauls altogether.

**** Luke Snoke stole the film. His voice, his robe, his pretense, his fingernails, his force rape of Rey with the, "Give me everything," line. Comes out digitally March 13 and you weren't here when I announced its my favorite Star Wars film slightly ahead of Rots. Rian Johnson "looped" me in with the Last Jedi.

Yeah, I didn't recognize your Maul until I saw the words. 👆

I actually didn't mind it as much as I thought I would. I wouldn't say it was anywhere near the top, but not as bad as I thought. Snoke dying and toilet Luke were the only parts that really bothered me. Holdo was kind of annoying too but not as bad as I thought. Second viewing we'll see though.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Yeah, I didn't recognize your Maul until I saw the words. 👆

I actually didn't mind it as much as I thought I would. I wouldn't say it was anywhere near the top, but not as bad as I thought. Snoke dying and toilet Luke were the only parts that really bothered me. Holdo was kind of annoying too but not as bad as I thought. Second viewing we'll see though.

Well I've seen it five times. To me it's this simple. Do you want one orgasm or multiple. As a man this is the only way we can ever experience the multi orgasm.

Snoke really is the Alpha and the Omega. Luke is that guy who despite making cucking look cool to degenerates and social misfits for decades has angered many because he's now rejected the way of the cuck. Until the end when he cucks one last time like a champ.

Rest Cuck Luke your fight is over.

Okay, I have an absolutely enormous series of posts coming so I'm warning everyone now lol

It's also leaving things out, but it is the easiest way to see the vast difference in the characters. Hence why you've seen it way too many times.

I think it is simple and that's likely why I see it parroted so much.

Are you serious right now? He wasn't feeling very serious about killing his nephew because of guilt and shame? He turned an ultra bright loud lightsaber on in his sleep. Then a terrified Kylo either swung or blocked an attack. And somehow knocking A Grand Wizard in Luke out in the process... but I digress.

"Very seriously" would require consideration, careful thought, and... seriousness. He had a moment that passed like a "fleeting shadow" or whatever he says. This is obviously serious but compared to the other incidents, like the false interpretation told by Ben, where he's readily swinging at him? There is a difference to consider. "Somehow" knocking Luke out? Well, he had a roof dropped on him. That's probably enough to fill in your "somehow."

What would your excuse be had he killed him? That he didn't really kill him because he felt guilty?

Loaded question. You assume I'd have an excuse. If he had killed him, I would've hated it but that's a silly hypothesis. Also, your analogy might be applicable if I had said, "He didn't really have a passing thought about killing him because he felt guilty."

I said relative peace in comparison to having his family and friends burned to death and many friends killed in a huge war.
I didn't say at complete peace. And he was at peace anyway until he tried to kill his nephew. He had no reason to simply mope around, unless he was out of character.

This is a ridiculous point and showcases a lack of attention being paid to the film and this is another thing I constantly see. Luke knew already that Ben was being influenced by Snoke. So, you have a teen with an enormous power inside of him being trained by an incredibly powerful and evil dark-side user. Perhaps that's a reason to mope around? LOL

And the whole reason his temple was burned down because he tried to kill his nephew and got ko'ed in the process. It wasn't like out of nowhere his temple was attacked and now he can't see the good in anyone, he shoved Ben to the darkside and paid the price. He even admits he created Kylo, then he turns it around and blames Snoke.

It is Snoke's fault so he is worthy of blame. Snoke had already poisoned Ben. He also did not attempt to kill his nephew, only briefly thought of it. He did not attempt it, he did not plan it, nothing. Luke was certainly responsible for contributing to Ben's final steps to the dark side but did he "shove" Ben to the dark side? Not according to the film:

"I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I had seen it in moments during his training... but then I looked inside and it was beyond anything I'd ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He who would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he would became and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow and I was left with shame and with consequence.

And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him."

Luke recognizes he made a mistake but his father was a Skywalker and had that potential and ran the galaxy with torment and oppression. Luke had seen this in Ben for a long time, knew Snoke was training him, and saw how Ben's darkness had grown beyond what Luke "could imagine."

Luke swings at unarmed Palpatine, almost kills his father for just threatening to turn his sister, and a passing thought that doesn't end in an attempt makes no sense? Hahaha wtf

Luke's temple directly got attacked because he was so out of character. Then he went to go die because he was so out of character.

Pointless. Moving on...

Also the darkside he sensed could and likely was the direct result of Luke's actions pushing him over the edge. Luke should have known this. Luke should have tried to talk to his nephew about this. Luke should have tried something other than standing over a kid with a lightsaber. Someone, who again, tried at every opportunity to turn Vader.

Luke was training Ben since he was a child. There's no reason to assume Luke wasn't speaking to him about this. However, he probably did that and it didn't stop him from being influenced by Snoke or being curious and wanting to explore the dark side further.

No, it is. You use Palpatine as a basis for this argument later on, and Palpatine was a nexus a evil, and even then it took a lot for Luke to attack him.

Luke was having a conversation with Sidious and attempted to murder him, whilst he was unarmed. Vader name-dropped his sister and threatened to turn her and Luke almost kills Vader. Luke gets frustrated, shows aggression, force chokes a Gamorrean, etc.

"No, it is." Right... so how? It wasn't serious contemplation or consideration from Luke, when it came to Ben. It was a passing thought. Keep in mind this is leagues less severe than attempting to kill an unarmed Sidious or cutting your father's hand off and struggling not to finish the job.

He just senses darkside in child and decides he might very well kill him? That's already conflicting.

You're either being intentionally dishonest or, again, ignored TLJ. He didn't "just sense" the dark-side in him. He knew Snoke was influencing/poisoning him, felt growing darkness in his training, and saw that growing darkness had become something "beyond what he imagined." You're also confusing Star Wars with the real world, methinks. This is a universe where people can block others from being sensed, read intentions, get glimpses into the future, throw people around with an unseen force they can control, etc.

Luke is incredibly strong within the force, as shown in this film. His vision of the future was likely not an inaccurate one.

You're contrasting Vader to an at the time innocent child. This should speak for itself.

You keep on calling Ben a child but the destruction of Luke's temple happened circa 28 ABY. TLJ is 34 ABY, I believe. This made Ben at least 23 years old.

At the time Yoda watched Anakin kill many many Jedis and younglins. Anakin lead a revolt against the Jedi temple and completely decimated it. Anakin committing one of the worst things that Yoda has ever been witness to. It's not the same... even a little bit. Yes, Jedi will kill evil, or when they need to, but they do not kill innocents.

You're not understanding. The Jedi Masters and those with any authority in the order, several times over, have encouraged using lethal force to deal with threatening entities in the SW universe, especially Luke's masters. This is what Luke has learned and has an instinct to take care of this with Ben.

Keep in mind you keep saying that these events are not the same and you're right, which is why the responses are different. Got Anakin running loose and murdering all of the Jedi with Sidious? Yoda is certain he must die and tells Kenobi to do it after serious consideration. Got Ben being influenced by a powerful darksider who could end up being the most powerful evil in the galaxy but hasn't done anything yet? You get a passing thought that you don't act on.

How are these not appropriate for the scale of what these masters were responding to? You've damaged your point here. Remember, Sidious was clouding the growing darkness from the Jedi. Luke can see this and it is a challenge to figure out how to handle it.

And having capabilities to foresee millions dying so you should kill them before it happens, is not how the Jedi do things. You're applying the "kill Hitler when he's young" argument to Star Wars, and coincidentally using the same line of logic Palpatine used to kill any force sensitive child he could find so they couldn't oppose him.

Strawman. I didn't apply that argument. I am explaining Luke's thought process and how this is consistent with his character. Also, I hate that I have to remind you of this again, but SW is not in the real world. No one has magical powers to sense what could happen in the future with accuracy or sense how "evil" someone is. In SW, this is a truth. Also, Luke's intent sharply contrasts that of Palpatine's. Palpatine did not want opposition or to have his position threatened an Luke did not another Palpatine on his hands running amok in the stars, enslaving the galaxy.

Also, which Jedi? Luke is not a traditional Jedi and was not raised within the order. Why would his way be the same as, say, the prequel film Jedi? That has NEVER been Luke. Jesus, man...

I really don't think I have to keep in mind this at all.

Oh, I doubt you would.

As with many of your examples. You're all about inventing context and making excuses for Luke acting different in TLJ, but you're pretty freely ignoring very very important context in the examples you compare it to to try and make it seem alright.

Nope, not excuses but interpretation. Calling them excuses isn't enough. Your responses have been pretty meh so far. Also, Luke is still Luke but of course he "acts different." He's an old man now and not a young man in his twenties. Expecting him to act precisely the same is insanity.

[quote][b]Oh, Luke killing a child is OK because Yoda told Obi Wan to kill Vader? Oh, well, that's fine I guess.

I literally never made this point. You can't argue, dude. Why all these point-by-point responses when you can't comprehend what I'm telling you? We're discussing a film here and it shouldn't be this hard...

Like I said before, this is the Sith way. A Jedi if they felt so strongly about this would have simply cut training and kicked him out, or helped him.

Luke handling Ben is a legitimate dilemma. If he kicks him out, he goes straight to Snoke and begins tapping into his power with the dark side. That plan sucks. Luke obviously couldn't help him because Snoke's influence was too potent. Luke had been training him for years and Snoke was whispering in Ben's ear, yet Ben's darkness continued to grow.

It's not the "Sith way." It's just a bad thought. Luke knows this, which is why he ultimately regretted it and understands how he failed Ben. He's not perfect, which is what makes it interesting. I'm sorry you wanted the stale Qui-Gon-esque Luke who would NEVER be tempted to do anything drastic or was perfect and God-like but someone who wanted to not make SW another utterly generic romp decided differently, thank CHRIST.

You're applying false motives to Luke. Motives that don't fit Luke's character... hence why people say he was acting out of character. A lot of what you do in this post is spin your own narrative to try say why things are right, when even you admit Luke is "different" at the end.

Of course Luke is different. This does not mean it is out of character. We've jumped ahead YEARS in the SW universe and Luke is older and will have differences to the young man he was. And I'M making excuses? Self-awareness is not your friend right now.

You say I've spun a narrative but haven't explained adequately as to why. A series of large posts and this is what you bring to the table? Man, come on.

The problem is, the people who raise these points don't have to assign motives and make up narratives to come to the conclusion that Luke is acting different and very non Jedi. The very core of your point is that it's alright that Luke did this, and here's why, while very loosely trying to say he's the same without any real backup as to why. You're thinking from a personal viewpoint, and not from an in universe view. A normal person would have killed the kid.

When did I say that Luke having a passing thought about killing his nephew was "okay?" You have to leave this strawman behind because it is annihilating the integrity of your arguments. Again, Luke's Jedi order is Luke's. If you're discussing recently, after the Temple incident, he's acting non-Jedi likely because he disagrees with their philosophy and thinks the "Jedi should end."

I am not making up narratives. I just paid attention. All I hear, everywhere online and even from some friends, is how out of character this is but the explanations always suffer, straight up are not there, or aren't sufficient. You're the one saying how Luke thought of killing Ben who was an "innocent child" but Ben was at MINIMUM TWENTY-THREE YEARS OF AGE.

A great Jedi under full approval of Obi Wan/Yoda, and who redeemed Anakin would not. Luke thinking that hardly about it already betrays the Jedi way, and who he was. Especially a family man like Luke.

Luke "thinking that hardly?" Yeah, but...

"He who would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of everything I loved because of what he would became and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow and I was left with shame and with consequence."

... you're wrong.

Also, keep in mind the redemption of Vader was joint effort by Luke and, well, obviously Vader himself. I would agree that it would be out of character for Luke to plan, seriously consider, weigh it, etc.

He didn't. He had a brief moment that passed and paid enormously for it.

Though I am glad you admit Luke was a galactic authority/power. That will come up, don't worry.

ok lol

But your reasons are basically in full defense of killing the kid. Both the paragraph above this, and the paragraph below are giving reasons why him killing the kid are for the greater good, and he should have. You tried to use Anakin and Palpatine as times when Jedi attempted to kill, and therefore it would have been alright for Luke to do so.

Which begs the question of why you could only see my point had Luke actually killed him? By all means you are in full defense of it being in character, so what changes? Why could your logic falter if that were the case?

I don't think he should have at all. I'm saying if you have this vision, it's what you do. He is a leader. It's his duty and what he was taught by Yoda and Kenobi. Sure, he wasn't taught exactly, "If you have a feeling that your immensely powerful nephew is going to run the galaxy with a Sidious-esque dark-sider, and you have an intense vision about this and know he's being influenced by that figure, kill him before it gets out of control."

It's not binary. It's not, "Well, they either give him that exact piece of advice or they didn't teach this." Yoda and Kenobi both practiced that a means of dealing with individuals like Vader, Snoke, or Sidious is to murder them. Seriously. If they're that powerful and have that much influence, the only option is to extinguish their lives. Luke takes this lesson and applies it to a fresh circumstance but he's off about it.

In his position as a leader, it's not so farfetched that he'd even briefly consider it out of instinct. Remember what he's been trained to do all of his life when dealing with an enormously evil power and that power's influence on a dangerously force-strong Ben (who's a Skywalker).

I wasn't literally saying "he should go do this." It was to illustrate a point about having the power to foresee what is going to happen or getting insight into the trajectory of events. It was to explain Luke's thought process through devil's advocation. It is why I said I would only agree if Luke did it. It would be out of character and foolish, if he followed through. Remember, I was figuratively placing the reader in Luke's shoes. Here, see again:

"Having capabilities within the force to foresee millions dying from a dark-side threat, you terminate that threat regardless of it's personal cost. Keep in mind that when Luke has this vision, he has a responsibility that comes before his blood relation and his personal feelings as one of the few remaining galactic authorities/powers. That is why, when Luke sees this vision, his immediate instinct is to quell this rising menace and this is what a leader does. Ending danger before it becomes dangerous."

^ It's explaining what a man in his position ought to pursue as a potential avenue. "This is what a leader does" because it is. It's about the hardest possible choices dwelling in your mind. Luke recognizes this is a weakness of being in that authoritative position and Yoda provides great wisdom on Luke's mistake and being a leader in general:

"We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

And no it's not in character at all. Luke both before, after and during his final fight with Vader continued to hold out hope he could change him. Him jumping straight to the murder in your sleep wagon after dealing with such a lost cause like Vader and seeing him change don't exactly stay in character for Luke.

Luke was younger and more naive. How could you think shit like this is an excuse? It makes sense. Rey is reminiscent of Luke when he was young. "I can bring Kylo back, etc." Luke thinks this is absurd and then his character develops into understand that, although Kylo may never be a Jedi again or start actively pursuing the light, Luke believes Ben could still act and do something to attain some sort of redemption. Look at how Luke talks to Leia about him before he goes out there.

And if it wasn't a big deal, it wouldn't have made it to the movie. Evidently something was wrong, and the scene was made for a reason. Even if the intention was just to show Kylo Ben's evil, it still used the wrong character to highlight it. If it wasn't a big deal, it wouldn't have directly thrown Kylo to the dark side and resulted in him burning down the temple and killing a bunch of people. You're trying to minimize the importance of the scene. It happened, he did it, and however fleeting the moment was it had dire consequences. Obi Wan wouldn't have done that shit.

How have I tried to minimize the importance of the scene in TLJ just because I don't agree with you on what it represents or whether or not it is within Luke's character? I think it's one of the most importance scenes in the film, hence this massive argument concerning that scene. Lol?

No, it wasn't just to show Ben's evil but it surely did a solid job at doing that. You keep on saying Luke doesn't act like a Jedi but remember that Ben has been trained all of his life and was a Jedi and his "Jedi" response to Luke holding a lightsaber over him is to sack Luke's temple and murder a bunch of Jedi that weren't standing over him with a lightsaber ignited so, in the end, Luke wasn't thoroughly wrong about Ben.

Yes, Luke contributed to Ben's fall at that moment but it wasn't due to some consistent wrongdoing. Luke had a brief moment and made a mistake at the shittiest time, creating a perfect storm.

Dude, I agree with it having consequences that are dire. Like... what? Also, since "Obi-Wan Kenobi" is not just a synonym for "Luke Skywalker", perhaps he wouldn't have. They are different people and will have different approaches, instincts, and considerations for how to handle certain things. Kenobi and Yoda aren't better Jedi. Remember, they ruled in an era where they allowed almost all of the Jedi (and there was much more than Luke had) to become extinct, lost the flagship Jedi temple, lost the Republic, etc.

They handled Anakin poorly over the course of a lifetime, along with not having the strength or preparation to deal with Sidious' cunning and prowess. Luke may have fucked up massively but his instinct told him to do something and, when you lead, you do it. Thankfully, he didn't, but he had that understanding and felt/saw that. The Jedi that came before Luke failed to do this so much more comprehensively than Luke ever did.

You mention how Kenobi and Yoda planning to kill Vader/Sidious was more drastic because of what they did? Keep in mind, those two and the Jedi council also allowed this to happen and it gave way to consequences that, as of so far, were much more serious than Luke's.

Again, how are you going to contrast the ultimate evil in Star Wars with a child? Anakin was bad enough. Palpatine though? Surely you see the error here.

Twenty. Fucking. Three.

Also, Luke was not just weighing in dealing with Ben but what someone like Snoke could do with someone as force-strong as Ben. Luke was concerned he would have another ultimate evil on his hands in that instinctive moment. Surely you understand this.

And Palpatine was literally telling Luke he was going to kill all his friends while Luke tried his hardest to hold true to himself. Not only that, but Palpatine was behind the only family he knew for however many years getting burned to death. That Palpatine was blowing up planets previously, and now had another planet destroyer that he was bragging to Luke about.

Yeah, and Luke doesn't want that happening again. Don't you see?

Anyway, Luke nearly succumbs to Sidious' manipulation. You say what Luke does in TLJ is a "non-Jedi" thing to do yet Luke fell victim to Sidious' temptation so perhaps he's not the ideal Jedi you thought he was? Perhaps he's not a Qui-Gon? Luke has always been the closest to that "grey" area and wasn't conventionally trained as a Jedi. Also, Vader threatened his sister and, AGAIN, he goes off and nearly murders him. Luke almost loses it TWICE in that throne room. Now, faced with someone like Snoke who is seeking the power Sidious had and is grooming a powerful Skywalker, you're telling me it's SO ABSURD that Luke has a passing instinct to help suppress this by taking Ben's life?

I honestly don't understand how this is so foreign to some people.

He almost kills Vader in a fit of rage to overcome him and win the battle. A Grand Wizard Luke is different than a Jedi Knight Luke. And a fit of rage in battle is different than killing a kid in his sleep in a calm state, especially when Luke should be at his peak at that point in time.

Yes, they are different. His position was different and age has made him different. However, Luke is still Luke so he's not a different person in the literal sense, now is he? Also, two fits of rage. Also, Luke carefully considered this and was intently listening to Sidious and even Vader and flew off the handle. Those weren't just "moments." Luke heard Sidious out and swung at him. Luke listened to Vader and pummeled him onto his knees and cut his goddamn hand off.

Old man Luke? Has a brief thought. Go watch the film. You can see exactly how long it is by his facial expressions and his narration of the true events at the temple grounds. That is the difference between "Grand Wizard" Luke and Jedi Knight Luke because Jedi Knight Luke just might have gone through with it.

Palpatine and Vader were behind decades of murdering people and wiping out the Jedi. It is simply not the same.

It's not, which is why the events are showcased and handled differently. However, Luke's thought isn't out of character. He's been taught that dealing with enormous galactic evil must be dealt with in a final manner. He instinctively applied this to a juxtaposing circumstance and it brought him great shame. It's completely, completely within his character.

He is not flawless, no. Nobody said that, but he has never been portrayed like he was in TLJ. The fact that he considered murdering a child is not exactly in character. The last we saw of him in films he held out hope that his beyond redemption deadbeat father that he watched murder his mentor and tried to kill his own child (Luke), could be redeemed. That is a very stark contrast to say the least.

Why would he be portrayed exactly like that? Luke was portrayed with humanity, age, experience, and trauma. This is a man whose friends have been screwed by the Empire. His father mutilated him and contributed to that, his nephew is being poisoned by another man who is trying to do what Sidious did to his father, etc.

Luke has not had an easy life and people wanted Luke in this film to just be this perfectly adjusted and unbreakable wise old man? How boring and deprived of reality that would have been... SW has needed something like this for a while and it didn't take a psychic to know a large portion of the SW audience wouldn't be prepared for it. It's a shame.