IndieWire: J.J. Abrams: Star Wars Fans Who Didn't Like TLJ Are Threatened by Women

1. redeeming vader is ignoring archaic jedi belieifs like the one that one who goes to the dark can't come back or that the jedi must detach themselves from love.

2. He never got the time to dissuade. It's pretty clear given the rest of what we see from Luke in TLJ. Why would we go with the interpretation, that Luke tried to kill Ren, that doesn't align with how else he is potrayed?

3. I never recalled Luke saying Sidious was free of blame but that's pretty moot givent he context of what Luke was discussing; The way he should proceed, not how the bad guys should.

4. TLJ doesn't derseve blame for the bad hand TFA dealt it.

(My comparison of TFA and TLJ is on the last page)

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Also it's unclear if Luke swung at Benlo or simply blocked when looking at both scenes.

-The second flashback was Ben's truth: Luke legitimately attacked him, so he just defended himself.

-The third flashback was the truth: Luke sensed Ben's future, and saw that he could not be swayed/turned from the dark side. Luke's first thought was that he needed to end the imminent threat, so he ignited his lightsaber... But instantly stopped himself and regretted the [albeit brief] thought of killing an innocent child/his nephew. Even though Luke was never *actually* going to hurt him, Ben still awoke to see his Master holding an ignited saber above him, felt betrayed, and attacked out of fear.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
1. redeeming vader is ignoring archaic jedi belieifs like the one that one who goes to the dark can't come back or that the jedi must detach themselves from love.

2. He never got the time to dissuade. It's pretty clear given the rest of what we see from Luke in TLJ. Why would we go with the interpretation, that Luke tried to kill Ren, that doesn't align with how else he is potrayed?

3. I never recalled Luke saying Sidious was free of blame but that's pretty moot givent he context of what Luke was discussing; The way he should proceed, not how the bad guys should.

4. TLJ doesn't derseve blame for the bad hand TFA dealt it.

Luke's character at the end of the OT was entirely Jedi. It is not in character for him to want to break the order.

Because if taken the last scene as absolute, him and Ben looked into each other's eyes for a lusty old time. Luke never said anything until after Ben summoned the saber and locked up. He could have immediately turned off the saber before or while Ben was turning around and backed up for one.
"He immediately regretted his saber turning on"
Then probably don't stand there with it on standing over a child.

Luke blamed the Jedi for letting Sidious rise to power. And used it as an example to how flawed the Jedi were. There is no way this aligns with OT Luke when he saw hope and the Jedi way turn Anakin against Palpatine.

TFA was questionable too, but praising how bold TLJ was doesn't speak to how much it was put in a corner. And saying it dealt TLJ a bad hand doesn't instill a confidence in your arguments.

Originally posted by Galan007
-The first flashback was Luke's truth: he just went to talk, and Ben freaked out and attacked him for no reason.

-The second flashback was Ben's truth: Luke legitimately attacked him, so he just defended himself.

-The third flashback was the truth: Luke sensed Ben's future, and saw that he could not be swayed/turned from the dark side. Luke's first thought was that he needed to end the imminent threat, so he ignited his lightsaber... But instantly stopped himself and regretted the [albeit brief] thought of killing an innocent child/his nephew. Even though Luke was never *actually* going to hurt him, Ben still awoke to see his Master holding an ignited saber above him, felt betrayed, and attacked out of fear.

The problem is the third cutscene cut away from Luke's angle so it's hard to tell if he simply deflected, or attacked. A better quality or an urge to rewatch the movie would solve this.

Ultimately it doesn't matter though. The context of it in the first place doesn't speak well of abiding by Luke's prior characterization. And slowly reaching for his lightsaber and staring at it while it's on aren't the greatest representation of an incontrollable involuntary reaction.

Though he was going to kill him - however brief the thought was - that was the intent. That was what came out when Ben turned around. That was what came out when he turned the lightsaber on.

But here's the question:

Do you agree that that scene was in character for what Luke should be? And should Luke be above such involuntary actions like thinking about killing his nephew, and showing the weapon to do so?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
The problem is the third cutscene cut away from Luke's angle so it's hard to tell if he simply deflected, or attacked. A better quality or an urge to rewatch the movie would solve this.

Luke: "[Ben] would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become... And for the briefest moment I thought I could stop it *ignites his lightsaber* [...] It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence *stands woefully staring at his saber* [...] And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him *Ben summons his saber and attacks; Luke defends*"

Originally posted by One Big Mob
But here's the question:

Do you agree that that scene was in character for what Luke should be? And should Luke be above such involuntary actions like thinking about killing his nephew, and showing the weapon to do so?

Was Luke at all portrayed as I would've liked him to be? Definitely not. I was hoping that we'd finally get to see Grand Master Luke "Force-God" Skywalker in all his glory(admittedly, I was biased/tainted by Legends material)... But instead we got an angry hermit who shunned the Jedi(and the Force) all together, and was just rotting on some remote island, waiting to die... F*ck the galaxy's problems.

That said, I understand the logic behind him [albeit briefly] thinking about killing Ben. The scene made it clear that Luke didn't have the power/skill to keep Ben on the Jedi path... Luke sensed nothing but darkness in Ben's future. Killing him would have certainly been for the betterment of the galaxy, but ultimately Luke just couldn't bring himself to kill su familia.

The act of killing in an of itself isn't in violation of the Jedi Code, so long as it is warranted... Pretty much any noteworthy Jedi in galactic history has killed *someone*. Padawan Kenobi was Knighted after they thought he'd killed Maul in TPM, they threw a party for Anakin after he killed Dooku in RotS, Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Anakin/Vader, while he tried to kill Palpatine in RotS, etc. etc. etc.

So no, I can't condemn Luke's rationale there -- it was for the proverbial 'greater good', after all. The real question is if Ben would have still turned to the dark side if Luke hadn't done that... Was Luke the Shatterpoint of Ben's downfall..?

Luke barely stopped himself from killing Vader after going on a berserk frenzy against him. People seriously idealise the man, to think that he couldn't have a momentary lapse in restraint.

Luke doesn't break from the order, he essentially gives Rey his blessing to reinvent it. Again, that's consistent with Luke rejecting jedi teachings regarding love and using it to redeem Vader

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, rewatch the third flashback if you're so inclined, because it's not really that hard to tell. Luke's saber was ignited, but he definitely wasn't attacking Ben... Especially when you consider his narrative during the flashback...

Luke: "[Ben] would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I loved because of what he will become... And for the briefest moment I thought I could stop it *ignites his lightsaber* [...] It passed like a fleeting shadow -- and I was left with shame and consequence *stands woefully staring at his saber* [...] And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him *Ben summons his saber and attacks; Luke defends*"

'In character' is a relative term.

Was Luke at all portrayed as I would've liked him to be? Definitely not. I was hoping that we'd finally get to see Grand Master Luke "Force-God" Skywalker in all his glory(admittedly, I was biased/tainted by Legends material)... But instead we got an angry hermit who shunned the Jedi(and the Force) all together, and was just rotting on some remote island, waiting to die... F*ck the galaxy's problems.

That said, I understand the logic behind him [albeit briefly] thinking about killing Ben. The scene made it clear that Luke didn't have the power/skill to keep Ben on the Jedi path... Luke sensed nothing but darkness in Ben's future. Killing him would have certainly been for the betterment of the galaxy, but ultimately Luke just couldn't bring himself to kill su familia.

The act of killing in an of itself isn't in violation of the Jedi Code, so long as it is warranted... Pretty much any noteworthy Jedi in galactic history has killed *someone*. Padawan Kenobi was Knighted after they thought he'd killed Maul in TPM, they threw a party for Anakin after he killed Dooku in RotS, Yoda sent Kenobi to kill Anakin/Vader, while he tried to kill Palpatine in RotS, etc. etc. etc.

So no, I can't condemn Luke's rationale there -- it was for the proverbial 'greater good', after all. The real question is if Ben would have still turned to the dark side if Luke hadn't done that... Was Luke the Shatterpoint of Ben's downfall..?

It is exactly that difference. I'm sure everyday a guy like yourself thinks about raping many gals. But you do not (probably) stand over bedsides with your weiner out crying that you made a mistake.

I have no issue with Jedi killing. Afterall a large point I made is Luke believed in Anakin and redeemed him in Jedi eyes by throwing an old man down a well. The issue is, those are usually well deserved deaths. Jedi are not supposed to be cold blooded killers to a point where they could be justified in "killing Hitler" when he was a baby.

Had Ben went about the temple slaying kids for no reason and Luke confronted him, it'd be another story. By all means kill his face. But at that stage in time it couldn't have been justified in him doing it. Hence him making a mistake.

A mistake I don't believe to follow in what we know of Lucas Skywalkerstein.

Also it's fully possible Luke became his own grandpa there. In that the darkness he sensed was due to his own actions. He jumped the saber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke barely stopped himself from killing Vader after going on a berserk frenzy against him. People seriously idealise the man, to think that he couldn't have a momentary lapse in restraint.

There's a difference between being overwhelmed by anger in a fight as a Jedi Knight when Vader finds out about Luke's sister and saying she's into all sorts of nasty shit, and arming yourself against a sleeping child while being the Grand Master Jedi who can turn people from the Darkside and facedown ultimate evil.
He also had the wherewithal to stop himself and not kill Vader when he had full rights to. As well as standing up to Palpatine after clearing his mind.

He's not perfect, but he should be far removed from such outbursts.

I wasn't even talking about you in particular. Its a stupid thing that just keeps coming up.

The difference is that Luke realised what he was doing and stopped almost instantly in Bens room while he went Boo Radley on Vader. Other than that it was a similar moment of being overwhelmed by emotion. He saw a glimpse of Ben destroying the Jedi and reacted without thinking. It happens, he's only human.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke barely stopped himself from killing Vader after going on a berserk frenzy against him. People seriously idealise the man, to think that he couldn't have a momentary lapse in restraint.

Now in regards to the article...

Asked by IndieWire about pushback from "Star Wars" fans who decried Rian Johnson's film for its focus on more female-centric stories (bolstered by the edition of franchise newbies like Laura Dern and Kelly Marie Tran), Abrams was clear: "Their problem isn't 'Star Wars,' their problem is being threatened."

I'm not being threatened and I think Rey and Leia did great, Finn's new love interest was still a terrible addition to the movie as it detracted from the main story of the movie which was worthy of all of the movie's focus.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I have no issue with Jedi killing. Afterall a large point I made is Luke believed in Anakin and redeemed him in Jedi eyes by throwing an old man down a well. The issue is, those are usually well deserved deaths. Jedi are not supposed to be cold blooded killers to a point where they could be justified in "killing Hitler" when he was a baby.

Also, the entire Jedi Council agreed to pair Quinlan Vos with Asajj Ventress, and send them on a mission to assassinate Count Dooku in cold blood. So yeah, the Jedi aren't always portrayed as these infallible beings of the light... Even in their glory days, they made shit decisions occasionally. /shrug

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wasn't even talking about you in particular. Its a stupid thing that just keeps coming up.

The difference is that Luke realised what he was doing and stopped almost instantly in Bens room while he went Boo Radley on Vader. Other than that it was a similar moment of being overwhelmed by emotion. He saw a glimpse of Ben destroying the Jedi and reacted without thinking. It happens, he's only human.

And he also wasn't a young guy with a reconstructed face with direct motive to currently save everyone he loses and if he doesn't he's failed completely and everyone will die in minutes.

Being human is correct. But when he was human against Vader he was going through some really heavy shit that recently watched his master die while only being a Jedi Knight.

Contrast that with sensing evil from a sleeping child in a relatively peaceful time.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Because he wasn't actively being taunted by his father with sister threats while swinging a red cock of death at him threatening to kill him, while being beside a dirty old man that's a nexus of evil that keeps chiming in with crazy old man shit.

And he also wasn't a young guy with a reconstructed face with direct motive to currently save everyone he loses and if he doesn't he's failed completely and everyone will die in minutes.

Being human is correct. But when he was human against Vader he was going through some really heavy shit that recently watched his master die while only being a Jedi Knight.

Contrast that with sensing evil from a sleeping child in a relatively peaceful time.

He was also actively trying to restrain himself in that situation, whereas with Ben he was totally shocked by what he sensed from his nephew and reacted on instinct.

Luke had just sensed that Ben could destroy the revitalised Jedi that he'd worked so hard to rebuild and had a knee-jerk response to try and prevent that. But sure, he reacted badly and then a second later when he actually thought about what he was doing he instantly stopped himself.

Finding out that your own nephew is a monster is some pretty heavy shit as well you know. If I walked in on a family member talking about killing jews I'd probably react strongly as well.

Luke was trying to restrain himself from Vader's taunts and snapped whereas he had a instinctive reaction to reading Ben's mind and quickly stopped himself.

You're being silly.

Who reignited this dumpster-fire of a debate?

Originally posted by Galan007
You're acting like Luke actually tried to kill Ben, though. He didn't. He had a momentary lapse in judgement that amounted to little more than igniting his lightsaber, before realizing that he just couldn't do it. Much like he did against Vader, Luke stopped himself before he went down [what he believed to be] a dark path.

Also, the entire Jedi Council agreed to pair Quinlan Vos with Asajj Ventress, and send them on a mission to assassinate Count Dooku in cold blood. So yeah, the Jedi aren't always portrayed as these infallible beings of the light... Even in their glory days, they made shit decisions occasionally. /shrug

Vos was seen as crazy even before becoming a Master. He was questionable to say the least. Though I'm glad you agree it was a shit decision. Vos was also the guy who basically implied he would have killed all the Hutts had Kenobi not been at his side.
Though again, I keep getting thrown comparisons where it is of a being of great evil in desperate times vs sensing potential in a sleeping child.

Might as well throw Mace trying to kill Palpatine into the mix and Anakin saying it's not the Jedi way (and then...)

I think another Jedi getting to that point would have been feasible. But with what Luke has faced, I think it's a large leap to have gotten where he did. Luke faced the two absolute worst people in the galaxy and had him redeem one of them by killing the other (both). After facing that it being his first reaction to arm himself against a sleeping child seems far fetched.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was also actively trying to restrain himself in that situation, whereas with Ben he was totally shocked by what he sensed from his nephew and reacted on instinct.

Luke had just sensed that Ben could destroy the revitalised Jedi that he'd worked so hard to rebuild and had a knee-jerk response to try and prevent that. But sure, he reacted badly and then a second later when he actually thought about what he was doing he instantly stopped himself.

Finding out that your own nephew is a monster is some pretty heavy shit as well you know. If I walked in on a family member talking about killing jews I'd probably react strongly as well.

Luke was trying to restrain himself from Vader's taunts and snapped whereas he had a instinctive reaction to reading Ben's mind and quickly stopped himself.

You're being silly.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
For all intents and purposes he did though.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Vos was seen as crazy even before becoming a Master. He was questionable to say the least. Though I'm glad you agree it was a shit decision. Vos was also the guy who basically implied he would have killed all the Hutts had Kenobi not been at his side.

The point is that ANY Jedi(even the entire Council at the height of their power) can have a lapse in judgement/ethics... It's not limited to Luke.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I think another Jedi getting to that point would have been feasible. But with what Luke has faced, I think it's a large leap to have gotten where he did. Luke faced the two absolute worst people in the galaxy and had him redeem one of them by killing the other (both).

...It's not like he knew Vader would block at the last second -- Luke was legit trying to kill Palps out of anger.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
After facing that it being his first reaction to arm himself against a sleeping child seems far fetched.

Without condoning...or condemning...I understand Luke's initial rationale behind wanting to kill Ben -- the alternative, as he saw it, was far worse than the deed itself. That said, Luke still stopped himself before ever *actually* trying to harm him, so he ultimately still held true to his values... And that's what it seems like you're not acknowledging.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He was also actively trying to restrain himself in that situation, whereas with Ben he was totally shocked by what he sensed from his nephew and reacted on instinct.

Luke had just sensed that Ben could destroy the revitalised Jedi that he'd worked so hard to rebuild and had a knee-jerk response to try and prevent that. But sure, he reacted badly and then a second later when he actually thought about what he was doing he instantly stopped himself.

Finding out that your own nephew is a monster is some pretty heavy shit as well you know. If I walked in on a family member talking about killing jews I'd probably react strongly as well.

Luke was trying to restrain himself from Vader's taunts and snapped whereas he had a instinctive reaction to reading Ben's mind and quickly stopped himself.

You're being silly.

He went in there to read his mind just like he went in there to redeem Vader. Don't try and tell me he wouldn't have tried to restrain himself from what he saw. He's the one who knew the possibilities.
And he reacted this way against a defenseless innocent child at the time. Not a giant robotdad threatening him with a lightsaber and everyone he knew... with actual very real and quite urgent threats.

Would you walk in on that family member sleeping and cock a gun back though?

I realize what he was doing, but you saying things like "knee jerk reaction" and "reacting badly" don't exactly speak in ways to act like I am being silly. Nor does saying things like it only being instinct like he's an animal with no self control and therefore "out of character" help to prove he was in character.

It doesn't matter how short it was. It doesn't matter if Palpatine kills people in their sleep. All I'm saying is it was out of character for him, and it basically started Kylo down a bad path. The direct path he wanted to avoid. And Luke should have been better prepared than this especially with decades more Jedi training than what he had against Vader.

Originally posted by Galan007
For all intents and purposes, he did not though.

Granted, Vos was essentially the Martin Riggs of the Jedi Order, but he was still a highly respected(and valued) Jedi Master... And remember: the Jedi Council made the decision to send him on the assassination mission with Ventress, not Vos himself.

The point is that ANY Jedi(even the entire Council at the height of their power) can have a lapse in judgement/ethics... It's not limited to Luke.

Luke's initial reaction was to attack an "unarmed" Palpatine in a fit of rage, though:

...It's not like he knew Vader would block at the last second -- Luke was legit trying to kill Palps(and for good reason.)

Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

Without condoning...or condemning...I understand Luke's initial rationale behind wanting to kill Ben. That said, Luke still stopped himself before ever *actually* trying to harm him, so he ultimately still held true to his values... And that's what it seems like you're not acknowledging.

He stopped himself before he pulled the pushed the one shot kill button. But that doesn't mean he didn't try. And arguing this is severe semantics. He didn't try and kill him, he just pulled out his lightsaber and stood over him while he was sleeping. I didn't try to kill the police, I was just pointing a gun at them. Makes no difference.
He didn't swing, but the thought very much occured.

Vos was a wildcard, I agree. And I understand the Jedi endorsed it. The fact that you personally called it a shit decision meant I don't care. Comparing shit decisions to shit decisions doesn't mean one is automatically correct.

The point is, all of these are thought about highly with heavy debate and in desperate times against things that committed great evil. Not sleeping children that have bad juju. I know the Jedi aren't perfect, but they also aren't instinctual animals. Nor do I think any would endorse killing innocent children with bad thoughts.

So me saying all these comparisons aren't the same merits another one against the most evil being in the galaxy? Do you want to just argue against my original posts as well like Vader/Palpatine wasn't brought up already?
Palpatine was telling Luke that he, as a fully evil man was going to kill all his friends and there was absolutely nothing he could do about it because he was - for lack of a better term - invincible at the time, and his friends were running into a trap, and everyone he knew was going to die immediately. Then he was tempting him with the darkside like he's done before to others, and taunting Luke with it while telling him to kill him.
Ben was saying, I'm sleeping and I have bad thoughts.

I am acknowledging it though. Don't play that shit against me, you know who I am. What I'm saying is he went too far. I have literally stated and made examples about where the line is. You think me making that rape comparison was only for giggles? It's an extreme version of it (though not really since both actions you can't take back). There's a fine line between thoughts and actions. Luke should be at a level where he can seperate the two.
The fact that his action immediately caused the death of a bunch of Jedi and ruined his order say he went too far.

I have no problem with the Jedi having unclean thoughts. I have no problem with wanting to kill psycho babies. The problem I have is Luke was an indoor wind gust away from killing his nephew. Luke has went down that path and pulled back someone who's gone farther than almost anyone else. You're telling me he can't stop himself from slowly reaching for his saber and staring at it for a while? That he can't turn the thing off and try and reason with the kid in the 10 or so seconds he stood around like an idiot? That he can't deal with it in a training session? The fact that he went there in the first place is sketchy.

"If it were me..." I would have cut Adam Drivers throat out. That's irrelevant. I haven't been at the apex of evil and pulled someone back from it to bring a balance to the entire force.

Him stopping himself = good. Him igniting his lightsaber = not great.