Originally posted by The EllimistAnd just what, exactly, is a "maximum velocity" in a vacuum supposed to be, dare tell me? Maximum velocity relative to what? The non-existent ether? The only speed limit in space is c, lmfao. You could say that this is the maximum delta a tie fighter could achieve with its fuel, but that's implausible because in ANH we see X-wings circumnavigate the gas giant Yavin in like ~2 minutes, which would require a change in velocity astronomically greater than 1200 kph (among numerous examples). Nor is it plausible that a tie fighter can't reach speeds that a modern fighter jet casually can.
Rather, the "atmospheric" qualifier is:
1. Aligned with figures for other vehicles that use the "atmospheric" qualifier, which is also problematic but at least not totally incoherent.
2. In either case a better-than-nothing rationalization for an otherwise meaningless term.
3.
Spoiler:
It's literally an RPG mechanic that creates a constant speed to avoid having to deal with the mathematics of accelerating bodies in a vacuum, lmfao.
1.Tie Fighters are launched off of Star Destroyers. Our anchoring point upon which to measure velocity would be said Star Destroyer.
2. It is in no way possible that the quotes in question are referencing atmospheric speed. This is because Tie Fighters are launched from space and in the case of the Essential Guide it is providing a technical profile.
Do you think this is referencing atmospheric speed? mmm In addition, I was not just using the RPG quote to substantiate my view. It is the least valuable out of the two sources mentioned. I am perfectly willing to admit the quotes in question are wrong, however, it is evident that they are not in reference to the atmosphere.
Originally posted by The Ellimist... no expression
1200 mph = 536 meters / second, which at the 4100 g's listed the tie fighter would reach in about a tenth of a second. What happens then? Do the engines magically die out because they hit 1200 mph relative to an imaginary absolute reference frame?
BTW, concession accepted, because the relevant figure here is thrust, not "maximum velocity", and you just demonstrated that the engines of a tie fighter can generate the thrust needed to accelerate it by 4,100 g's, which is insane. Whether it then reaches a "maximum velocity" is irrelevant.
Wait, wut?
You just wasted 541 characters countering a point I never made. The only reason I mentioned the difference in G's was to show how the information given in The Essential Guide is wildly incongruent with physics in real life.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
You literally have no idea what you're talking about. If there are no safety mechanisms then that's a point in my favor, because that means that Starkiller would have been able to access the 4,100 g's. Likewise, you have absolutely no metric with which to conclude that it's unfeasible given the tech base for the tie fighter to supply "SO much energy" over 4,000+ years of technological progress. If you want to do an actual analysis, be my guest - but you are obviously totally incapable of grasping even the most basic of physics and literally argued against your own case by noting the acceleration figures and then shooting down the possibility of a safety mechanism.
1. By mentioning the safety mechanisms, I was simply correcting your ignorance not making an argument.
2. I will leave the analysis for ILS.
3. I never made a case.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Literally one of the most embarrassing arguments I've ever seen. 0/10, go back to struggling with pre-calculus. thumb up
And you wonder about ILS's "strange" behavior.
P.S. My only real contention with your post was your mentioning of the safety mechanics and atmospheric speed(this being a problem created by Bart). But, you have done an excellent job prattling on.
P.S. My only real contention with your post
Incorrect:
From DarthSkywalker0: Where has it been stated in any source ever that the Tie Fighter has hidden reserves which supply SO much energy that it surpasses the massive dropship?
^ you were clearly tying yourself to the overarching point, and now are trying to pretend that you were just jumping in to nitpick.
1.Tie Fighters are launched off of Star Destroyers. Our anchoring point upon which to measure velocity would be said Star Destroyer.
Then what is the anchoring point for said star destroyers, who also have listed velocities?
For those who are confused as to my point, there is no absolute reference frame in physics, and the only absolute speed limit is [i]c[i] (in the context of Star Wars this would obviously only apply to sublight propulsion).
I am perfectly willing to admit the quotes in question are wrong,
Concession accepted, yes.
however, it is evident that they are not in reference to the atmosphere.
That point, which was Bart's interpretation, is the most trivial possible detail for you to try to declare victory on. Not that you're right, since as I said multiple similar sources relate it to atmospheric speed, but I don't have much interest in pursuing this conversation because it's not pertinent to my point.
Anyway, as we discussed privately no need to escalate this further.
LMFAO, wrong:
"My only REAL contention with your post." REAL is not a synonym for ONLY.
Then what is the anchoring point for said star destroyers, who also have listed velocities?
I would assume they are orbiting a planet as they tend to do.
That point, which was Bart's interpretation, is the most trivial possible detail for you to try to declare victory on. Not that you're right, since as I said multiple similar sources relate it to atmospheric speed, but I don't have much interest in pursuing this conversation because it's not pertinent to my point.
What are the similar sources referring too? You can tell me in pms if that is preferable.
Concession accepted, yes.
When did I discount this point?
Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
"My only REAL contention with your post." REAL is not a synonym for ONLY.
Dude you dedicated a whole paragraph to it, which was presumably important because it was what my points were actually about.
I would assume they are orbiting a planet as they tend to do.
Not necessarily. Plenty of space battles happen outside of that context.
What are the similar sources referring too? You can tell me in pms if that is preferable.
Well publicly I'll ask you why we should care about whether the source talks about atmospheric speed or whatever if we both agree that it's wrong. If your point is that I should've led with that instead vs. Bart, then sure.
Dude you dedicated a whole paragraph to it, which was presumably important because it was what my points were actually about.
One sentence does not equal one paragraph. Here is the paragraph in question:
"Where has it been stated in any source ever that the Tie Fighter has hidden reserves which supply SO much energy that it surpasses the massive dropship? I also find it cute that you would assume that the Tie Fighter has safety mechanisms. The Tie Fighter has no combat shields, hyperdrive, life-support systems, or oxygen during ejections. Most Tie pilots considered the tie to be a suicide machine which prioritizes speed over all else. The empire prided themselves on the affordability of the ships. But go ahead and keep squirming."
Not necessarily. Plenty of space battles happen outside of that context.
I assume when they are measuring the speed of a ship it is not in the midst of a space battle.
Well publicly I'll ask you why we should care about whether the source talks about atmospheric speed or whatever if we both agree that it's wrong. If your point is that I should've led with that instead vs. Bart, then sure.
That is my point, yes. We can continue on PMs now.
Did it occur to anyone, that Starkiller might have also activated the sublight drive? Because that's usually activated when leaving a planet's atmosphere. Which according to the novel, he rocketed through the atmosphere, the clouds and the planetary shield generator. They keyword being rocket.
Though I'm not sure what this really has to do with anything, I'm just wondering.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Did it occur to anyone, that Starkiller might have also activated the sublight drive? Because that's usually activated when leaving a planet's atmosphere. Which according to the novel, he rocketed through the atmosphere, the clouds and the planetary shield generator. They keyword being rocket.Though I'm not sure what this really has to do with anything, I'm just wondering.
awesome theory tbh 👆
Originally posted by JKBart
awesome theory tbh 👆
I mean it's not really a theory, if Starkiller was wanting to leave the planet as fast as possible, it would only make sense...plus this.
The starfighter behind him was unharmed by the devastation he had wrought. Starkiller ran to it and leapt inside. He worked its familiar controls with confident speed, activating systems still warm from its last flight. Its ion engines snarled.
An invisible fist gripped the starfighter. Starkiller increased the thrust. His determination met Darth Vader's rage, and for an instant he was unsure which would win.
Then all resistance fell away, and the TIE fighter leapt for the sky. He fell back into the seat and watched the black storm clouds approach him. Electrical discharges danced around the cockpit. Darkness briefly shrouded him.
Then he was through and above the clouds and rocketing high into the atmosphere. The planetary shield surrounding Kamino was designed to keep ships out, not in, so he passed easily through their visible barrier. Stars appeared, and Vader was far behind.
- TFU 2 novel
Generally, sublight drives are activated when one is wanting to leave the planet.
Sublight drives maneuver vehicles through realspace, and usually employ one of several engine technologies, including ion engines. Sublight drives are almost always engaged upon leaving a planet's atmosphere and during space battles.
- New Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels
Given that Starkiller rocketed high into the atmosphere, it stands to reason that he would have engaged the Sublight drive, especially since when he got into the cockpit he started activating systems, which of course would include the Ion engines, which is with the Sublight drives being an independent system. I don't think he'd just stick to atmospheric travel if he's wanting to leave as quick as possible.
Not to mention it takes roughly 1-5 minutes from the surface of a planet to orbit. Which give the text, it seems that he achieved getting into space rather quickly.
Taking note the same with the Falcon in Tatooine during the escape with Luke and the droids.
The same with the X-wings on Yavin 4 when they went to attack the DS.
In both instances, these ships cleared the planets surface and got into space in no time flat.
But again, not sure why this one whole feat between the two here is the crux of...well who wins this, unless I've missed something.
How fast is a sublight drive, exactly? I checked the cutscene of the event in question:
https://youtu.be/zdDIt_1f3lM @10:20
Is that the drive or just the starfighter's thrust speed?
Originally posted by ILS
How fast is a sublight drive, exactly? I checked the cutscene of the event in question:https://youtu.be/zdDIt_1f3lM @10:20
Is that the drive or just the starfighter's thrust speed?
I would wager it's the drive given how fast it's moving and then we see it in space right after. I can't imagine an atmospheric speeds of only 745 mph to easily clear the entire atmosphere and reach orbit that quickly. Given that rockets have to achieve a certain speed(which is far greater than 745 mph) to get out of the gravity of Earth in real life, it only makes sense.
That and the vast disparity of space travel speed and atmospheric speed. The only reason no pilot would just activate their sublight drives in atmosphere is because I guess, all the hazards that would go with it.
But then the game isn't exactly the novel as Vader isn't holding the fighter and just lets it go.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
I would wager it's the drive given how fast it's moving and then we see it in space right after. I can't imagine an atmospheric speeds of only 745 mph to easily clear the entire atmosphere and reach orbit that quickly. Given that rockets have to achieve a certain speed(which is far greater than 745 mph) to get out of the gravity of Earth in real life, it only makes sense.That and the vast disparity of space travel speed and atmospheric speed. The only reason no pilot would just activate their sublight drives in atmosphere is because I guess, all the hazards that would go with it.
But then the game isn't exactly the novel as Vader isn't holding the fighter and just lets it go.
To be truthful, it seems nigh impossible to gauge given sourcebooks inaccuracies.
@Zen https://youtu.be/StxwZgp0fyA?t=7m57s
It doesn't look like it's going that fast, and there's a time skip between the time it reaches the clouds and space. More to the point, it wasn't going at a particularly insane speed when it broke Vader's grip, it only "rocketing" once it was past the clouds.
Much like Elm's fixation on the 4,000 year difference in tech, it would make sense on-paper for him to use the sublight drive, but I'm not sure if he actually did.
I don't really care about the comparison either way, as Malgus can stand on his own.
Originally posted by ILS
@Zen https://youtu.be/StxwZgp0fyA?t=7m57sIt doesn't look like it's going that fast, and there's a time skip between the time it reaches the clouds and space. More to the point, it wasn't going at a particularly insane speed when it broke Vader's grip, it only "rocketing" once it was past the clouds.
Much like Elm's fixation on the 4,000 year difference in tech, it would make sense on-paper for him to use the sublight drive, but I'm not sure if he actually did.
I don't really care about the comparison either way, as Malgus can stand on his own.
Yeah, there's no real way to tell if he actually did, but if he was wanting to get out as fast as possible then yeah.
Still as you said, I don't really care about the comparison either, I was just bringing up that possibility as well.
Anyway, carry on with this discussion or what have you in regards to the fight.
Originally posted by The EllimistI mentioned Leneer because there are both implicit and quantifiable growths in Malgus’ power over the 28 years of constant warfare between Return and Deceived (imagine that). And while Kao was butchered by Malgus at the age of 20, Leneer performed admirably against him in Deceived when he was 48. She, by all evidence, would butcher 20 y/o Malgus in turn.
*clap clap* Nice job backtracking from Aryn Leneer, given that Aryn's only scaling from Kao is their respective performances against Malgus...but then at that point given that Malgus is the person you're trying to quantify here you should've just started off with Kao.
This is primarily relevant because Malgus stomps her with lightning at the end of the book, which shows a large increase in his own capabilities within the short space of one book.
Originally posted by The EllimistThat’s a non sequitur, since Vader did not fight “the second best Jedi of his generation.” Ferus being considered the second “most gifted,” meaning his unrealised potential, by one person, speaks nothing to his capabilities as an adult unless you can demonstrate them. All it does is bode well for him.
Does being a battlemaster require you to be the second best Jedi of your generation? Obviously not since most of the most powerful Jedi of an era tend to not choose to become battlemasters (e.g. Yoda/Mace/Obi Wan vs. Cin Drallig). So becoming a battlemaster is incredibly impressive, but not on the level of being second out of all apprentices in the Jedi Order.
Whereas, to even become a lightsaber instructor you need to be a battle hardened, well reputed Jedi Master who chooses to become an instructor despite how demanding the position is, and even then, you need to undergo rigorous screening from the High Council and Battlemaster. The Battlemaster occupying a rank above all of those instructors speaks volumes of their combat prowess.
Originally posted by The EllimistFerus wasn’t necessarily the second best apprentice in all things related to combat, he was “the most gifted bar Anakin” according to one person: Obi-Wan. Gifts relate to nascent, unrealised potential, and unless Obi-Wan has personally screened every apprentice in the Order, I fail to see how this is more impressive than being a battlemaster.
The problem here is that people may zero in on the word "apprentice" while ignoring the fact that Ferus isn't an apprentice when he faces Vader. The fact that he was a great apprentice relative to his peers is a good indication of his potential because it [b]adjusts for experience, and comes from a highly credible source (Obi Wan).[/B]
And what exactly did Ferus have to show for his gifts as an adult, anyway? What feats did he accomplish, what training did he undergo, what wars did he fight in? If you can’t even make a compelling case for him to be battlemaster level, I struggle to see how you think Vader has a chance here.
Originally posted by The EllimistWhat more do you want, exactly? Virtually every comic depiction of non-Force users and Force users alike being hit by lightning tends to involve a prolonged, focused blast, whereas Malgus chose a Jedi “at random” and “harvested” two padawans as a side effect. He oneshotted Aryn Leneer despite her interposing two lightsabers and being fully prepared. If at any point Vader is hit by this lightning it’s bound to mess with his suit, as to my knowledge he hasn’t yet been insulated against it like he is in TFU.
So your response to my claim that your feat can't be quantified is to just rhetorically ask me to do it for you? Seriously?
Originally posted by The EllimistI read all of the relevant passages for context, and also created an extensive thread on Andeddu, which required me to CTRL+F through every mention of his name. Back to the drawing board with this horseshit. 😉
Says the person who went on a huge Bane wank trail, which largely focused on RoT feats, and then admitted he's never even read RoT? Lol ok.
Originally posted by The EllimistI didn’t say he isn’t powerful, I’m just telling you that these opinions are unreliable. If he was as powerful as was required for your argument, your evidence wouldn’t be entirely predicated on opinions, e.g opinions about Ferus’ latent gifts, opinions about Vader’s power.
If Vader weren't particularly powerful why would he be in awe of him? LMFAOIn either case it's absurd to dismiss two independent accolades from seasoned veterans (and a third if you count Nick on Vader >>> Vastor) just because they all fumble up because they're in "awe" of him. You're palpably grasping at straws.
Originally posted by The EllimistThe means by which we evaluate characters is not by observing every single paltry demonstration of their power, but by looking at their absolute best performances against their toughest opponents. So unless this Jedi has seen the likes of Windu at their absolute best, which would be incredibly unlikely, he doesn’t have a valid opinion when, in contrast, his benchmark for Vader is fighting him to the death.
One of the best Jedi in the Order never once saw any of the Jedi he regularly interacted with fight seriously, and was just utterly delusional about everyone's abilities?Again, you're grasping at straws. Witness testimony is certainly meaningful evidence if it is from multiple credible sources, and here we have three combat veterans (Nick, Jax, Ferus), two of which were Jedi, one of which was the best Jedi in the whole Order, clearly contradicting your notions of Vader's lack of power.
Or does Vader have some sort of telepathic field that makes several independent sources vastly overestimate his power? Is it his scary mask?
Originally posted by The EllimistThis is ultimately a massive strawman, because I didn’t say Vader was a weakling. I’m pointing out the limitations of the opinions you have presented, which means using them as evidence to put baby-Vader over Deceived!Malgus is a terrible argument. While it’s neither here nor there, I anticipate that Ferus and co. would be shitting bricks were they placed in front of Malgus, and I know deep down you know this to be true, but would rather wriggle your way out of admitting it.
No, you misread me. I said Vader doesn't have the same combat ability or Force mastery as either of those two.Regardless, whether Jax is right about Vader > Yoda in raw power is beside the point. For Jax to at least think that, Vader can't be, say, dramatically weaker than the B-team or Cin Drallig, or else you'd have to conclude that Ferus, one of the best Jedi of the Order, was delusional and clueless about everyone's abilities, which makes absolutely no sense.
Analogy: if Luke sees a building and in the text guesses it's 700 meters high but turns out it wasn't, that doesn't mean it's plausible that it's 10 meters tall lol.
Demonstrate Vader’s feats.