@ILS,
I mentioned Leneer because there are both implicit and quantifiable growths in Malgus’ power over the 28 years of constant warfare between Return and Deceived (imagine that). And while Kao was butchered by Malgus at the age of 20, Leneer performed admirably against him in Deceived when he was 48. She, by all evidence, would butcher 20 y/o Malgus in turn.
Yeah, and I'm saying this is a circular argument in its absolute purest form. <redacted elaboration for the sake of not derailing>
Anyway, the relevant part is the (independent) elaboration here:
This is primarily relevant because Malgus stomps her with lightning at the end of the book, which shows a large increase in his own capabilities within the short space of one book.
Alright, so Deceived Malgus >>> Cao-beating Malgus. That's great although hardly an argument unique to Malgus.
For example, you can joke and mock Vader for struggling against Jax Pavon...around 19 BBY, two years before this fight is taking place (in 17 BBY). Or Roan Shryne in 18 BBY, ignoring the part where Vader experiences this after his victory:
More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.--
Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader
Honestly that sounds like an even more profound "epiphany" boost than what Malgus experiences, especially given that Vader would still remember the power of Anakin Skywalker and does not appear to be thinking "OMG I AM NOW AS POWERFUL AS AGEN KOLAR!", and I would be surprised if this random Roan Shryne were the only fight where Vader experiences it.
You might retort that Malgus has decades to advance and Vader only has 1-2. But even though his potential is nowhere near Anakin's, Vader still has a far higher ceiling than Malgus, a claim that I don't think you seriously dispute and will wait for objection before expending energy on the full case (though below some points will be discussed). You are comparing the growth rate of someone who, IMHO, could have rivaled Plagueis at the minimum at full potential to someone who at full potential would still get oneshot by Tenebrous's master's master's master. Likewise, as Vader has already gotten a taste of powers far beyond that as Anakin, his "catching up" growth rate is likely to be greater than someone unlocking higher levels of power for the first time.
So it's actually not clear that Malgus would advance more post-Cao to Deceived than Vader would post-Ferus Olin.
(Also, the Dark Woman fight is pretty commonly misunderstood, but I will once again only expend energy if you actually make that point)
That’s a non sequitur, since Vader did not fight “the second best Jedi of his generation.” Ferus being considered the second “most gifted,” meaning his unrealised potential, by one person, speaks nothing to his capabilities as an adult unless you can demonstrate them. All it does is bode well for him.
It's a predictive variable that shifts the expectation of Ferus's abilities. As with in everything outside of pure logic/mathematics, we're dealing with probabilities - and given that potential and adult power are highly correlated, you would obviously factor that in if you were betting on adult Ferus's power.
Whereas, to even become a lightsaber instructor you need to be a battle hardened, well reputed Jedi Master who chooses to become an instructor despite how demanding the position is, and even then, you need to undergo rigorous screening from the High Council and Battlemaster. The Battlemaster occupying a rank above all of those instructors speaks volumes of their combat prowess.
So you're saying that Cao's position has more certainty but haven't disputed that it has less of an upside. Sounds like the comparison is ambiguous to me.
If Cao is like the 8th most gifted Jedi of his generation, that's a massive drop-off from second place. Through this stretches generations, think about any Jedi Order we've seen: the gap between the most powerful and fourth most powerful, or the second most powerful and the 8th most powerful, etc., pretty much gets into oneshot territory (Satele/Barsen vs... who? Anakin or Mace vs...Agen Kolar?)
he was “the most gifted bar Anakin” according to one person: Obi-Wan. Gifts relate to nascent, unrealised potential, and unless Obi-Wan has personally screened every apprentice in the Order, I fail to see how this is more impressive than being a battlemaster.
Alright, speaking of squirming, this is where I think you get into the part of your post where you're just dismissing things for the sake of dismissing them. Character opinions may not be infallible, but that doesn't give you grounds to cast shade at them with no particular justification. Witness testimony, if properly framed, is taken seriously even in the court of law, and someone like Obi-Wan would certainly meet the bar of a qualified witness/expert.
I'm pretty sure that given how much everyone in the Order pontificates about Ferus's awesomeness, if there were an apprentice other than Anakin that was better than him, Obi Wan would have heard about it. The Order isn't that large and even if it were, you would expect who the best are to be pretty common knowledge, especially to someone like Kenobi, especially for something as relatively objective as Force ability.
Analogy: it's pretty common knowledge who the best athletes are in any really objective competition like track and field, the high jump, etc. It would be silly to think that a professional coach would just be utterly delusional about who the second best was, unless if the gaps were really small at the top (in which case your objection doesn't even matter).
I didn’t say he isn’t powerful, I’m just telling you that these opinions are unreliable. If he was as powerful as was required for your argument, your evidence wouldn’t be entirely predicated on opinions, e.g opinions about Ferus’ latent gifts, opinions about Vader’s power.
You keep saying that these opinions are unreliable but have yet to explain why a prodigy Jedi, a fairly skilled Jedi Knight, and a hardened war veteran are all going to be coincidentally wrong.
The means by which we evaluate characters is not by observing every single paltry demonstration of their power, but by looking at their absolute best performances against their toughest opponents. So unless this Jedi has seen the likes of Windu at their absolute best, which would be incredibly unlikely, he doesn’t have a valid opinion when, in contrast, his benchmark for Vader is fighting him to the death.
Well, firstly Jax's opinion is based on sensing Vader's Force presence, so it's not really dependent on combat. I don't think everyone in the Jedi Order constantly suppresses their Force auras given that Force concealment is an active power and not trivial to just keep up indefinitely.
As for Ferus, I really find it doubtful that nobody in the PT Jedi Order ever goes all-out or close to all-out in training. That certainly doesn't map onto real life sparring - while they may not be trying to kill each other, we're talking about raw speed here, which with training sabers is unlikely to really threaten a rival Jedi. So while you may normally take things easily, you can bet your ass that when the likes of Windu and Dooku were having their sparring sessions they weren't always f*cking around (before Ferus's time, but you get the point). Indeed, the Jedi literally had dueling tournaments - with all this evidence the idea that Ferus was just a sheltered child who had no idea he was dealing with Gods is a little silly.
This is ultimately a massive strawman, because I didn’t say Vader was a weakling. I’m pointing out the limitations of the opinions you have presented, which means using them as evidence to put baby-Vader over Deceived!Malgus is a terrible argument. While it’s neither here nor there, I anticipate that Ferus and co. would be shitting bricks were they placed in front of Malgus, and I know deep down you know this to be true, but would rather wriggle your way out of admitting it.
No, I don't think Jax Pavan would think Malgus's Force presence was more powerful than any he's ever met when he's walked around the Jedi Temple and met Yoda, etc., nor would Ferus have never seen anyone but Yoda move faster than him despite having been one of the most involved and connected young Jedi in an Order pretty dedicated to testing one another's combat abilities and with at least four, possibly up to a dozen combatants that could wreck Deceived! Malgus's shit.
I am open to being convinced that Malgus could win in a fight, but you should acknowledge that Vader is vastly more powerful at this point.