17BBY Vader vs Darth Malgus (Decieved)

Started by ILS8 pages

I'd like to clear up the matter of the ship comparison before moving onto the rest.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
1. The thrust of a ~1 BBY tie fighter vs. the thrust of a ship much larger...but literally >4,000 years more primitive. Given that in the few decades between TCW and ANH almost all of the Republic fleet's ships had become obsolete, and by LotF even imperial era tech was considered "ancient hardware" by Caedus.
What does this have to do with their respective thrust? You need to provide evidence that thrust increased so dramatically over the years that the thrust of a tiny, lightweight starfighter that could easily fit inside the cargo hold of the drop ship in question is flat out superior and producing more overall force. I mean, I think Occam’s Razor dictates holding back a drop ship is better than holding back a starfighter, but I know how much you enjoy squirming.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
3. How fast and far away Starkiller's tie fighter is vs. how fast and far away the Razor is by the time they are being pulled, given that the Razor from the context that you provided seemed to still be inside some sort of structure while it's unclear how far away Starkiller's tie fighter was.
Not sure how to make this more simple for you, squirmy squirmerson. In TFU II example, SK powers up the engines, Vader grips the ship, SK hits the thrust, for an instant there’s a struggle, then the ship rapes Vader’s TK and leaves. As for how near Vader is… he’s right next to the ship. SK knocks over a nearby tower ontop of some stormies, Vader “with surprising speed” is coming through the wreckage in pursuit. This being before SK is even in the ship.


He reached out with his hands and flexed his will. The Force responded, swelling and rising in him like an invisible muscle. A nearby communications tower groaned and twisted. Sparks flew. He wrenched the tower down and sideways, sweeping it over the platform, knocking the AT-STs into the ocean and crushing the stormtroopers gathering to rush him.

Something exploded-a generator, pushed far beyond its capacity. Through the exploding shell of shrapnel stalked a black figure holding a red lightsaber. Vader was moving with surprising speed.
[...]
The starfighter behind him was unharmed by the devastation he had wrought. Starkiller ran to it and leapt inside. He worked its familiar controls with confident speed, activating systems still warm from its last flight. [1]Its ion engines snarled.

[2]An invisible fist gripped the starfighter. [3]Starkiller increased the thrust. His determination met Darth Vader's rage, and [4]for an instant he was unsure which would win.

[5]Then all resistance fell away, and the TIE fighter leapt for the sky.


Now for the Malgus example. Unlike in the SK example, the drop ship is already in the air making an exit, drawing on the power of it’s thrusters, before Malgus does anything. You’ll note that Malgus busts into the hangar and see’s the ship, some distance away, leaving. As established before, he provides it with far more strain than did Vader the TIE fighter.

Aryn watched the Dragonfly lift off, missing Zeerid already.
[...]
Malgus rushed through the large double doors and into the landing bay. Vrath Xizor’s ship, Razor, rose on its thrusters toward the open roof doors. Two Imperial shuttles sat idle on the landing pad.

“Eleena!” he shouted, hating himself for his vulnerability but unable to contain the shout.

He reached out with the Force as Razor continued its rise, tried to take it in his mental grasp. Its ascent slowed. He held forth both of his arms, made claws of his hands, and shouted with frustration as he sought to hold back the power of the ship’s thrusters.

He felt a tightness in his mind, the string of his power being drawn taut, stretching, stretching. He would not release the ship. Its thrusters began to whine. He held it, teeth gritted, sweat soaking his body, his breath a dry rattle through his respirator.

And then the string snapped and the ship flew free, lifting clear of the roof doors.


Let’s do a tally of factors in favour of Malgus, and in favour of Vader:

+ Malgus’ ship was ridiculously larger
+ It was already moving before he slowed it down, the TIE fighter was only powering up it’s engines when Vader gripped it
+ Malgus was further away than Vader from their respective ships
+ Malgus’ power didn’t get instantly raped by the engines
+ Malgus is due to receive a monumental increase in power, whereas Vader is 16 years older in this example than he is in this thread, where his powers and adaptation to the suit were in their earliest stage

+ Elm the squirming microbe believes this is all just too ambiguous to draw any useful data from. His example with Anakin jumping off his speeder and Aryn fighting terminal velocity(?) was fine and dandy though, nothing nebulous there.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
4. Whether Vader allowed Starkiller to escape, given that other Legends material reveals that the events of TFU II were at least in part a test for the dark apprentice.
[...]
5. The fact that more pro-Vader assumptions better reconciles with evidence from the same plot given that Starkiller can blast apart frigates and ragdoll several hundred meter long Tantive IV's, but doesn't just ragdoll Vader, who according to you is like millions of times less powerful.
Smells like desperation and conjecture to me. If you can justify any of this let me know, though. Also not sure why you’d be citing such grand feats for 1. A character that isn’t Vader and 2. Feats taking place 16 years later from the Vader in this thread.

That last part was fvcking brutal.

What does this have to do with their respective thrust?

If you can't figure out how technological progress would affect power generation and engine thrust abilities, I can't help you.

You need to provide evidence that thrust increased so dramatically over the years that the thrust of a tiny, lightweight starfighter that could easily fit inside the cargo hold of the drop ship in question is flat out superior and producing more overall force. I mean, I think Occam’s Razor dictates holding back a drop ship is better than holding back a starfighter, but I know how much you enjoy squirming.

Yeah, keep feigning incredulity over the notion that 4,000+ years isn't enough time for a multi-fold increase in power generation / thrust abilities, given that in the few decades between TPM and ANH we see such multi order of magnitude improvements (the Death Star's peak reactor reactor output scales far, far above what it should be proportional to its volume vs. say, an Acclamator).

Occam's razor, the technicalities of which you certainly do not grasp, certainly does not suggest that most of the span of modern civilization would have a negligible impact on a society that obsoletes its tech in a few decades.

Smells like desperation and conjecture to me.

And once again, you vaguely dismiss arguments that laid out specific justifications (e.g. the incongruence between your interpretation of the event and Vader's feats just days later) with veiled ad hominems and smartass retorts, but no actual rebuttal. I'll take that as a concession. 👆

LMFAO. Andy on the ropes. Regurgitating a repeated point while ignoring everything else.

an slaughter timing

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LMFAO. Andy on the ropes. Regurgitating a repeated point while ignoring everything else.

ILS, take him home. 👆

😕 It's almost as if ILS ignored "everything else" because he wanted to talk about this one first. mmm

Except ILS plans to respond to everything else, whereas you have already ignored the entirety of his above post.

So is everyone ok with Revan > Malgus > Vader now?

(Outlander > Revan also seems popular)

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except ILS plans to respond to everything else, whereas you have already ignored the entirety of his above post.

mmm It's almost as if ILS has done the exact same thing (cutting stuff from his reply) numerous times throughout this discussion. But I know your eyes glazed over when the technical details came down, so this is all you can say lmfao.

In either case, if ILS cannot compare their engine thrusts, the burden of which is on him given that it's his feat, all the other points are irrelevant. Not that vaguely dismissing two of my points as "conjecture" without actually responding to the specific arguments is any better than deleting them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you can't figure out how technological progress would affect power generation and engine thrust abilities, I can't help you.
I certainly understand why it might make sense in the real world, but I stop giving a shit about such inferences when dudes are moving stuff with their minds. Onus is on you to demonstrate this apparently gargantuan difference in force being generated by a TIE fighter compared to a massive 50+ troop carrying dropship.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah, keep feigning incredulity over the notion that 4,000+ years isn't enough time for a multi-fold increase in power generation / thrust abilities, given that in the few decades between TPM and ANH we see such multi order of magnitude improvements (the Death Star's peak reactor reactor output scales far, far above what it should be proportional to its volume vs. say, an Acclamator).
Forgive me if I find technological improvements relating to superweapons and capital ships uninteresting when we’re talking about run-of-the-mill Imperial dropships and the barebones death trap that is a TIE fighter. The only improvements you have cited are relating to pretty much everything that isn’t thrust power; reactors, weapons systems, shields, hell you haven’t even been terribly specific about your irrelevant comparisons.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Occam's razor, the technicalities of which you certainly do not grasp, certainly does not suggest that most of the span of modern civilization would have a negligible impact on a society that obsoletes its tech in a few decades.

And once again, you vaguely dismiss arguments that laid out specific justifications (e.g. the incongruence between your interpretation of the event and Vader's feats just days later) with veiled ad hominems and smartass retorts, but no actual rebuttal. I'll take that as a concession. 👆

If it’s so obvious, you should be able to prove it. I’m not interested in your squirming; I laid out an extensive rebuttal which you glossed over, for reasons apparent to everyone viewing this bloodbath. While your corpse may twitch a little after…

This is ultimately your fate. Choose your battles more wisely next time. 😉

I certainly understand why it might make sense in the real world, but I stop giving a shit about such inferences when dudes are moving stuff with their minds.

Holy sh*t, this has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say. If you can dismiss the concept of "technology progresses in a setting where we explicitly see technology progress" because "thay spaze wezards!" then how the hell are you able to quantify a feat dependent on comparative engine thrust?

Remember that the burden of proof is on you to quantify this feat. Saying that we should "assume" that engine thrust abilities remain relatively constant over 4,000 years makes about as much sense as me finding a bad feat of pre-teen Malgus to lowball him.

Forgive me if I find technological improvements relating to superweapons and capital ships uninteresting when we’re talking about run-of-the-mill Imperial dropships and the barebones death trap that is a TIE fighter. The only improvements you have cited are relating to pretty much everything that isn’t thrust power; reactors, weapons systems, shields, hell you haven’t even been terribly specific about your irrelevant comparisons.

The fact that you don't see the relationship between thrust and reactor power betrays your utter ignorance of all things technical (and reliance on smartassery to mask that fact). Even if you weren't as ignorant about any meaningful real life subject outside of Darth Maul as you are, you should've recognized the absurdity of dismissing on incredulity the notion that engine thrust would upgrade when a huge span of several other related technologies did.

If it’s so obvious, you should be able to prove it. I’m not interested in your squirming; I laid out an extensive rebuttal which you glossed over, for reasons apparent to everyone viewing this bloodbath. While your corpse may twitch a little after…

Ah, yes - when I point out that ragdolling Tantive IV's is out of proportion to not TK'ing a tie fighter under the conditions you claim, you vaguely dismiss it as "squirming".

Here's another lesson for you: if one comes to a set of possible answers {A, B}, and answer choice A is corroborated by several independent avenues of reasoning, all other things being equal you would prefer answer choice A.

Once again you are utterly ignorant about the subject matter relevant to your own feat, utterly incapable of not committing really basic logical fallacies (like your circular reasoning blunder re: Aryn Leneer and Cao), so you resort to posting zero-substance gifs and "clever" redirections (e.g. you bring up that Anakin >> Vader as a major point, I ask why that matters, you respond with some bizarre tangent about another debate, and then just ignore the question).

10/10 troll, 0/10 argument, so nice job. 👆

Vader is getting burried right before my very eyes, lmao.

Heel!ILS has nigh-unmatched roasting skill.

I like how Sheevites eat each other. Lmao

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
I like how Sheevites eat each other. Lmao

time to feast, my friend

>Ne-Yo lyrics

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
>Ne-Yo lyrics

he murdered foxx, yes

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vader is getting burried right before my very eyes, lmao.

Heel!ILS has nigh-unmatched roasting skill.

Yeno, when AP publicised their dishonesty, lack of integrity and unparalleled self-delusion, it wasn't the characters being represented that were buried; it was the debater. I find it worrisome that the likes of Ellimist are permitted to commit identical debating atrocities without receiving half the amount of backlash. At least for my part, I intend to remain consistent in my ridicule.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
elim seems to be winning but tbh, getting in such a long debate with someone who's obviously just ****ing with you is kinda an l

Elim, come on now, do that IRL shit u said u had to do.

Props to ILS though, realizing he couldn't hope to beat the likes of carthage, he joined them.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The mental gymnastics are pretty clear: apparently Jax Pavan suddenly loses his ability to sense Force presences, Ferus Olin loses his ability to judge combat speed despite being one of the most gifted Jedi in the Order, and Nick forgets all about Kar Vastor's power despite fighting alongside him for decades, right when they encounter Vader.

Just saw this --

-- it's interesting the three Vader quotes are all from the same author.