Perfect UI Goku from DB Super vs SSJ4 Goku from GT

Originally posted by Galan007
No, it wasn't.

At least *try* to get your shit straight if you're going to throw these hyper-aggressive rants my direction. 😂

Don't go getting your feelings hurt Galan, I haven't said anything aggressive on this entire thread, lol.

I'm simply presenting a case, and there's no reason for you to get all sensitive about it because you're upset that I called you out for trolling in another thread. 👆

Anyway, let's at least pretend to be adults here and have a conversation instead of bashing each other, shall we?

In response to your "debunk" of my claim, I haven't had a chance to rewatch the entire movie yet, but I'll see if I can find what I'm looking for. I'm pretty certain it was you that brought that up in another thread somewhere. Regardless, I'll respond more thoroughly when I get off work.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I'm pretty certain it was you that brought that up in another thread somewhere. Regardless, I'll respond more thoroughly when I get off work.

...Although this was also an arc where Gohan and Piccolo were treated as pathetically weak feebs, so that could have contributed to their awe at Freeza's power as well. /shrug

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Based off powerlevels, who wins?

Hi Prof! 🙂

MUI Goku is universal (or more..) in raw power, has reached a state that not even the Gods of Destruction could, he is officially labeled as the strongest Goku in history and, along with Jiren, he is probably the strongest non-Angel entity of at least 8 universes out of 12.

Ssj4 Goku cannot compete, not in powerscaling, not in power, not in feats.

A simple gesture from MUI Goku and the fight is over.

Originally posted by Galan007
I've always maintained that it *could* have been the *implication*, based on the Z Fighters' reaction to 1st form Freeza's power in RoF... It was never actually stated, though.

...Although this was also an arc where Gohan and Piccolo were treated as pathetically weak feebs, so that could have contributed to their awe at Freeza's power as well. /shrug

Sorry I haven't replied- been very busy lately. Also, I'm sick right now so I won't revive this conversation for at least another few days.

Anyways, I don't think it was stated that Frieza was the most powerful ki the Z-fighters had ever felt, upon rewatching part of the movie.

Regardless, scaling from just the fact that 1st form Frieza could one-shot Super Namek Piccolo(SSJ1 tier), and SSJ1 Gohan(SSJ1 tier even untrained), we could still definitely reach the conclusion that 4th form Frieza was at least 226X more powerful than a SSJ1- which would still put him dozens of times above any SSJ3 tier we've seen in all of DBZ. Even SSJ3 Goku was only 8 times stronger than a SSJ1. That would make 4th form RoF Frieza around 28 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which is still a level that very few characters in DBZ could boast(even Buutenks/Buuhan was demonstrably only about 16X more powerful than SSJ3 Goku).

Just to put that into context, that would make RoF 4th form Frieza about 1.7 times, or almost twice as strong as Buutenks/Buuhan.

Goku in base form literally treated him like he was a child, not even needing SSJ1 or Kaioken to easily dominate him.

That means base Goku RoF >>> 4th Form Frieza(I'm sure we can agree on this), while 4th Form Frieza was almost twice as powerful as Buutenks, going by scaling.

Honestly, that feat alone still puts base RoF Goku well over 30 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku. Now multiply that by 400, and you get SSJ3 RoF Goku, which would be at least around 800 times stronger than even Buutenks from DBZ. This would put SSJ3 RoF Goku around 12,800 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

Then keep in mind that SSJB could easily be hundreds of times(if not more) powerful than SSJ3 Goku, and that Goku got multiple dozens of times stronger from that point, till the ToP, to the point he's at now where he's above a GoD.

Honestly, I don't see how you could even compare GT to that, even with a ton of scaling.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Sorry I haven't replied- been very busy lately. Also, I'm sick right now so I won't revive this conversation for at least another few days.

Get better, though. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Anyways, I don't think it was stated that Frieza was the most powerful ki the Z-fighters had ever felt, upon rewatching part of the movie.

Originally posted by Galan007
Don't bother. Your calcs rely on quite a bit of speculation, and from that speculation you came up with multipliers that are extremely overinflated, imo. No offense, but I will simply never agree with you here, so there's really no point wasting your time trying to 'prove' your calcs to me. /shrug

Get better, though. 👆

See, and you went ape-shit on me the other day when I told you that was never stated. ermmnone

What kind of speculation did my calcs rely on? We see on Namek that from 1st form to 4th form, Frieza's power level becomes 226X greater. Applying this to the minimum PL we can approximate for him(SSJ1 level at LEAST, since he one-shot two SSJ1 tier characters), you can see that Frieza is easily still 28 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku- making him 1.7 times as powerful(almost twice as powerful) as Buutenks.

I'm not even trying to argue at this point, I am just genuinely curious as to what your problem with my calculations on this are. I even adjusted them accordingly, since the statement I was going off of was inaccurate.

So my PL chain goes like this:

RoF base Goku > RoF 4th form Frieza(226X greater than 1st form Frieza) > Buutenks(16X greater than SSJ3 Goku) > SSJ3 DBZ Goku(8X greater than SSJ1 tier) > RoF 1st form Frieza > SSJ1 tier(SSJ1 Gohan, Piccolo, DBZ Goku, etc.)

From there, I just applied Goku's SSJ multipliers to himself- SSJ3 being a 400X boost to base. This makes SSJ3 RoF Goku around 800X greater than Buutenks, which conversely equates to him being 12,800X greater than SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

I'm just curious as to what it is that makes you disagree with these calculations so adamantly- they are based off of feats(Frieza's performance against two SSJ1 tier characters- even if Gohan was weaker, or Piccolo wasn't exactly SSJ1 tier, I could not even consider it a possibility that SSJ1 DBZ Goku could oneshot either of them, which Frieza did easily in 1st form), and canon multipliers(for Goku) STRAIGHT from the Daizenshuu.

Thanks though, I'm slowly getting better. I've had a lot of issues lately with my immunodeficiency disorder, so I basically keep getting sick and it's harder to get better every time I do get sick, lol. Appreciate the well wishes, it's just because of the shitty climate where I currently live(Ohio). One day can be 70 degrees and sunny, whereas the next day can be 10 degrees and 8 inches of snow on the ground.

Anyways, I'm sorry if you interpreted what I said as me going apeshit on you, lol. I'm just very curious as to what problem you actually have with the calcs that I just posted.

The problem is is that you're scaling from base Goku in that movie when he was supposed to be around God level as base at that point in time. As we have seen things have changed and Frieza has as well.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
The problem is is that you're scaling from base Goku in that movie when he was supposed to be around God level as base at that point in time. As we have seen things have changed and Frieza has as well.

Uh, if anything, that supports my case even futher...?

Goku still had SSJ3, and it was still a 400X boost to base form. This has never changed.

That just shows that SSJB and SSJG are clearly a far greater boost to base than SSJ3, which does absolutely nothing to discredit the calculations I just posted.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Uh, if anything, that supports my case even futher...?

Goku still had SSJ3, and it was still a 400X boost to base form. This has never changed.

That just shows that SSJB and SSJG are clearly a far greater boost to base than SSJ3, which does absolutely nothing to discredit the calculations I just posted.

His base being that level was dropped after Googeta. As we saw in BoG his base was intended to be God level, which would make it Twink level. SS3 was not an upgrade from that. But it was retconned.

What you're saying is that BoG was his default in power while he still retained all his multipliers and Blue and Red were far above this.
So... let's say Twink was a ten times boost from SS1. And since every important transformation in DB is at least a double boost from the last, we'll say Blue is double Red.
What this means is that Goku's theoretical Red Form in RoF was 1000 times more powerful than his BoG Red Form. Blue would be 2000 times more powerful. Frieza was over 2000 times more powerful than God Goku when he fought Beerus. Do you really believe this is the intent?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Except Goku and Frieza have lost this massive powerup as their base forms. Goku used to be far above ss3 Gotenks in base, yet we've seen him struggle with SS Gohan in SS prior to the ToP training. We saw Vegeta being comparable to Cabba. Goku being comparable to Trunks when Trunks had his last comparable power level as being in a hard fight against Dabura. Even after years of training Goku was about even with Caulifla until he apparently got a huge powerup from his first UI zenkai failure.

His base being that level was dropped after Googeta. As we saw in BoG his base was intended to be God level, which would make it Twink level. SS3 was not an upgrade from that. But it was retconned.

What you're saying is that BoG was his default in power while he still retained all his multipliers and Blue and Red were far above this.
So... let's say Twink was a ten times boost from SS1. And since every important transformation in DB is at least a double boost from the last, we'll say Blue is double Red.
What this means is that Goku's theoretical Red Form in RoF was 1000 times more powerful than his BoG Red Form. Blue would be 2000 times more powerful. Frieza was over 2000 times more powerful than God Goku when he fought Beerus. Do you really believe this is the intent?

1. Gohan had been training with Piccolo at that point for an undefined amount of time.

2. Goku didn't somehow get weaker in base from RoF to the ToP, lmao.

3. Everything you just said was based on incorrect assumptions with absolutely no basis in anything factual.

4. Uh, literally none of the "math" you just posted was accurate, in any way/shape/form. What makes you think that SSJG being a 10X boost to SSJ1 makes Goku in RoF 1,000X more powerful than BoG's Goku? Also, you just pulled SSJG being a 10X boost to SSJ1 out of your ass.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
1. Gohan had been training with Piccolo at that point for an undefined amount of time.

2. Goku didn't somehow get weaker in base from RoF to the ToP, lmao.

3. Everything you just said was based on incorrect assumptions with absolutely no basis in anything factual.

4. Uh, literally none of the "math" you just posted was accurate, in any way/shape/form. What makes you think that SSJG being a 10X boost to SSJ1 makes Goku in RoF 1,000X more powerful than BoG's Goku? Also, you just pulled SSJG being a 10X boost to SSJ1 out of your ass.

Then everyone else has gotten hundreds of times if not thousands of times more powerful, in base.

Everything I said was based on your line of logic. I'm glad to know you disagree with it and can't be consistent at all.

Because I just threw that out there as a low number. You said SSG is far superior to SS3, so being very conservative, I came up with 10 times, since SS3 is an 8 times multiplier.
Goku's base at that time was said to be at or near his BoG God form. Since he absorbed and maintained that level after it wore off.

So if his base is at BoG levels and he still maintains the SS forms while you yourself have said God and Blue are far better than SS3 which you say is a 400 times boost to RoF...

That would mean that even SS3 in your opinion is 400 times more powerful than BoG Goku.

Oh I see what I did wrong. 10 times would only be 500 times more powerful than base. Which would mean blue is 1000 times following these estimates. My mistake. So following your logic and giving very low estimates, SSBlue Goku was only 1000 times more powerful than BoG Goku. And it really shows.

Yeah, Goku's non-God forms possessing God-tier power in DBS is a horrendously inconsistent plot-point, to say the least.

People forget that when BoG and RoF were first released(ie. before the DBS anime was a thing), Toriyama stated that Goku would not be using the higher forms of Super Saiyan any longer, because they are essentially worthless:

AT: "Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won't become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."
-Source

...Which is why Toriyama put so much emphasis on bolstering the power of Goku's base and SSJ1 forms in those films -- it's all he was originally going to have Goku use from that point forward.

Fast-forward to current/DBS, however, and the higher forms of Super Saiyan have been used numerous times by Goku... And in most cases, the power of his 'regular' SSJ forms isn't implied to be 'hyper-God-amped, or w/e. IOW, Toriyama clearly had a change of heart where that is concerned.

*A great example of this is when SSJ2 Goku fought SSJ2 future Trunks. They were peers, but Trunks was slightly more powerful. What's more, Goku was impressed by Trunks' power because it was "even stronger than Gohan's" during the Cell Games:
https://i.imgur.com/suWDANo.png
https://i.imgur.com/yZYhu97.png

If Goku's SSJ forms were always intended to be 'hyper-God-amped' in DBS, he certainly would NOT still be using Cell-era Gohan as a measuring stick, lol. /shrug

👆

The second we found out they could still transform into SS forms, it went right out the window in a massive retcon. Otherwise the implications are too much. The show is already inconsistent enough, that would just blow everyones minds up.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Goku has been training in time chambers and with Gods, and that's since he started off in base 226 times more powerful than SS Gohan. That means base Gohan has gotten at least 11300 times more powerful before intensive ToP training to compete with Goku from even RoF.
The numbers I pulled out of my ass there are SS being 50 times base and 226 being at least how much more powerful Goku is.

Then everyone else has gotten hundreds of times if not thousands of times more powerful, in base.

Everything I said was based on your line of logic. I'm glad to know you disagree with it and can't be consistent at all.

Because I just threw that out there as a low number. You said SSG is far superior to SS3, so being very conservative, I came up with 10 times, since SS3 is an 8 times multiplier.
Goku's base at that time was said to be at or near his BoG God form. Since he absorbed and maintained that level after it wore off.

So if his base is at BoG levels and he still maintains the SS forms while you yourself have said God and Blue are far better than SS3 which you say is a 400 times boost to RoF...

That would mean that even SS3 in your opinion is 400 times more powerful than BoG Goku.

Oh I see what I did wrong. 10 times would only be 500 times more powerful than base. Which would mean blue is 1000 times following these estimates. My mistake. So following your logic and giving very low estimates, SSBlue Goku was only 1000 times more powerful than BoG Goku. And it really shows.

1. Gohan never seriously competed with Goku, iirc, in DBS. Regardless, him getting thousands of times stronger by training vigorously, after not training for years, would not be strange at all. His latent potential has always been insane.

2. As Galan pointed out, the god ki in base form concept is wildly inconsistent, and has been for the most part retconned. Regardless, we also see Goku in base being on par with/superior to an amped Majin Buu. The problem with DBS is that it's very inconsistent, but regardless, we see the intent was clearly to make Goku much stronger in base than he was as a SSJ3 in DBZ. Him going into other SSJ forms and holding back while fighting weaker people is just fan-service at this point, so they wouldn't get rid of his other forms altogether, imo.

3. Wrong. I'm sorry if you don't realize it, but you're not even using logic here. Like, at all. Your argument isn't even linear, and your makeshift scaling in an attempt to downplay mine, isn't even mathematically accurate, lol.

4. Regardless, it's clear that Goku post BoG's can use godly ki in all of his other forms. Whether or not he decides to is a different matter altogether. He can still use regular ki, otherwise no one would be able to sense him at all. If he just sticks to regular ki and goes SSJ, it's unclear how strong he is. Regardless, using godly ki as a SSJ3 should easily make my scaling accurate. Remember, I'm trying to determine his max- not his average(holding back massive amounts of power).

5. Um okay? SSJG may well be a 10x boost to SSJ3, but clearly Goku went from fighting somewhat around Beerus' level as a SSJG, to fighting just as well with him as a SSJ1. This doesn't mean that SSJG somehow doesn't make him stronger anymore- you're misinterpreting what happened. It means that he can now use godly ki in forms other than SSJG. SSJG can still be an amp, by increasing the amount of godly ki he uses. This isn't that complicated, dude.

6. Uh, nowhere did I even try to measure the gap between regular ki and godly ki. Going by my scale, RoF base Goku should be well above pre-BoG's Goku's SSJ3 form. As I've pointed out, he was able to effortlessly dominate 4th form RoF Frieza, who should be something around twice as strong as Buutenks. I'm not sure where you're coming up with the "1,000", "500", and "2,000"'s from.

Anyways, going by "my logic", the first time Goku used SSJG(the red form) it made him MARGINALLY stronger, in all of his forms- allowing him to go from getting lol-stomped by a less-than-1% Beerus as a SSJ3, to fighting somewhat evenly with him as a SSJ1. This means that post-BoG's, his SSJG form should be much stronger as well- assuming that it scales with the other forms. It would be very odd if SSJG stayed the same strength, while all the other forms were massively boosted. (and don't bring up the Beerus fight, claiming that should put his SSJ3 above Beerus- Beerus and Whiss both clearly admitted that he was holding back most of his power)

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, Goku's non-God forms possessing God-tier power in DBS is a horrendously inconsistent plot-point, to say the least.

People forget that when BoG and RoF were first released(ie. before the DBS anime was a thing), Toriyama stated that Goku would not be using the higher forms of Super Saiyan any longer, because they are essentially worthless:

...Which is why Toriyama put so much emphasis on bolstering the power of Goku's base and SSJ1 forms in those films -- it's all he was originally going to have Goku use from that point forward.

Fast-forward to current/DBS, however, and the higher forms of Super Saiyan have been used numerous times by Goku... And in most cases, the power of his 'regular' SSJ forms isn't implied to be 'hyper-God-amped, or w/e. IOW, Toriyama clearly had a change of heart where that is concerned.

*A great example of this is when SSJ2 Goku fought SSJ2 future Trunks. They were peers, but Trunks was slightly more powerful. What's more, Goku was impressed by Trunks' power because it was "even stronger than Gohan's" during the Cell Games:
https://i.imgur.com/suWDANo.png
https://i.imgur.com/yZYhu97.png

If Goku's SSJ forms were always intended to be 'hyper-God-amped' in DBS, he certainly would NOT still be using Cell-era Gohan as a measuring stick, lol. /shrug

I think you're misunderstanding what happened. Goku was sparring with Trunks, and more than likely not even using godly ki against him, until the very last instant(when he oneshot him). Pretty soon afterwards, SSJ2 Vegeta going at full power was utterly dominating SSJ1 Goku Black, who was completely superior to all of Trunks' forms, in base. Keep in mind, this is SSJ2 Vegeta- not SSJB Vegeta.

It makes sense that Goku and Vegeta would have to consciously choose to use godly ki, and can use just regular ki when they want to. Otherwise, none of the others would be able to sense them.

This means that Goku/Vegeta using godly ki > SSJ1 Goku Black >>(50x greater than)>> Base Goku Black >>> SSJ2 Trunks

Just because he managed to fight pretty well doesn't mean he's anywhere near an all out Goku.

I'm not 'misunderstanding' the scene at all. I'm telling you exactly what happened, without adding my own personal conjecture to explicitly-stated material, like you just did... If you have an issue with the scene, I suggest you send Toriyama and/or Toyotaro a Tweet. 👆

And why on earth do you think that Goku can pick and choose when he uses Godly ki and when he doesn't? I can assure you that definitely is not the case at all. Goku generates 'normal' ki in base-SSJ3. He only starts generating 'Godly' ki in SSG and upward.

That's why the Gods only started sensing Godly ki from Goku AFTER he went from SSJ3 to SSG against Toppo:
https://i.imgur.com/KsRUTMt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RYmnDNR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2aqKnkx.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm not 'misunderstanding' the scene at all. I'm telling you exactly what happened, without adding my own personal conjecture to explicitly-stated material, like you just did... If you have an issue with the scene, I suggest you send Toriyama and/or Toyotaro a Tweet. 👆

And why on earth do you think that Goku can pick and choose when he uses Godly ki and when he doesn't? I can assure you that definitely is not the case at all. Goku generates 'normal' ki in base-SSJ3. He only starts generating 'Godly' ki in SSG and upward.

That's why the Gods only started sensing Godly ki from Goku AFTER he went from SSJ3 to SSG against Toppo:
https://i.imgur.com/KsRUTMt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RYmnDNR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2aqKnkx.jpg

I don't have any issues with the scene- I have an issue with you pointing out inconsistencies without explaining bothering to attempt deducing what said inconsistency means in relation to other showings from the series.

Let me try to explain exactly what I mean: If Goku can't use godly ki in any other form, then what was it that brought his SSJ1 up to SSJG level after using godly ki for the first time? It was outright stated that he absorbed the godly ki, so wouldn't it make sense that he was using said godly ki in his SSJ1 form?

Either way, even if we're just to assume that it simply boosted his regular SSJ1 form to the point of being SSJG level, it doesn't disprove or even dispute my claim that 4th form Frieza > Buutenks(DBZ).

The only possibilities in these showings would be that- A. Going SSJG the first time brought Goku's SSJ1 form up to the level of SSJG- which would conversely give a massive boost to all his other forms as well, or B. Going SSJG the first time familiarized Goku with godly ki, allowing him to use it in all of his forms, to a lesser extent than when he's a SSJG/SSJB(same thing that happens when he goes SSJ in DBZ, but with the addition of him being able to use godly ki at will).

Either way, you never stated what problem you had with the calculations I posted for RoF Frieza, putting his 1st form above SSJ1 tier characters, and his 4th form potentially above Buutenks level. I'm still curious as to what problem you have with that calc, since I've redacted the "1st form stronger than Buutenks" thing.

You're not understanding.

The entire crux of mine and bran's argument is that Goku's standard SSJ forms being 'hyper-God-amped' is probably one of the single most inconsistent plot-points in DBS. Sometimes his standard forms appear to be God-amped, but more times than not, they don't appear to be anymore powerful than normal(the first scene I posted all but spells this out.) And again: Goku only generates Godly ki when he accesses SSG and upward -- his base-SSJ3 forms generate 'normal' ki exclusively(the second scene I posted all but spells this out as well.)

Please don't make this more than it is... Again.

I dont even know why you guys are arguing this. Hell even if we don't say Goku's base and SSJ forms are amped by God Kai we still have issues. I have seen Base form displayed as superior to SSJ/SSJ2 more than a few times. Hell im almost positive we will see base form Goku withstand Jiren in the next episode to some extent.

I would try and use only the manga to argue these kinds of things. The anime is just a mess.

Gogeta is the only person here that is arguing, tbh. All the rest of us are saying is that Goku's power in his non-God forms is wildly inconsistent in the anime(which you seem to agree with.) Sometimes these forms appear to be amped; sometimes they don't.

His power in the manga is A LOT more consistent, though... That's why I've been referencing it for the most part here. 👆