Perfect UI Goku from DB Super vs SSJ4 Goku from GT

Good thing my dog is in the way so I can fix both posts. I probably still made a mistake though since I'm tired. But I fixed the glaringly off parts. I'll just post a better version in one post.

Going by how every transformation has been at least double in DBZ/Super I will only be going by doubling the last transformation unless otherwise stated.
For example:

Oozaru = 10 times base
Kaio-Ken = 2 times to 20 times
Super Saiyan = 50 times base
Super Saiyan 2 = 100 times base/2 times Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan 3 = 400 times base/4 times Super Saiyan 2/8 times Super Saiyan 1

These are established multipliers. Now I go into assumption. As we see, everything is at least twice the last form. So I will use that low estimate to assume what the Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue multipliers are. As well as UI and MUI. Again, low estimate.

Super Saiyan God = 800 times base/2 times Super Saiyan 3/16 times Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan Blue = 1600 times base/2 times Super Saiyan God/32 times Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken times 20 = 32000 times base/20 times Super Saiyan Blue/40 times Super Saiyan God/640 times Super Saiyan 1
Ultra Instinct = 64000 times base/2 times Super Saiyan KKx20/80 times Super Saiyan God/1280 times Super Saiyan 1
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 128 000 times base/2 times Ultra Instinct/80 times Super Saiyan Blue/160 times Super Saiyan God/2560 times Super Saiyan 1

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So I think that's fair. That is the multipliers I'm going with. So next, I am going to go through the Sagas. As with what we've seen in DBZ, the characters seem to get at least twice as powerful as they were the last saga. So I think 2 times is a fair assumption going saga to saga.

I will be ignoring the lesser forms of Super Saiyan, as well as Goku's base form. After the Black Saga Goku stalemated full assassin Hit, so that will be our baseline for the start of the Tournament of Power. The end of Tournament of Power, I will be assuming Goku doubled in power, which is backed up by the fact that his SSBlueKKx20 did about as well as his Ultra Instinct did.

Super Saiyan God in Battle of The Gods will be my baseline in this one.
Super Saiyan Blue will represent Goku's power when he fought Frieza.

Battle of the Gods = 1 SSG
Resurrection of F Super Saiyan God = 2 SSG
Resurrection of F Super Saiyan Blue = 4 SSG
Universe 6 Tournament SSB = 8 SSG/2 Super Saiyan Blue
Universe 6 Super Saiyan BlueKKx20 = 160 SSG/40 Super Saiyan Blue
End of Black Saga/Start of ToP SSB = 160 SSG/40 Super Saiyan Blue
EoB/Start of ToP SSBlue KKx20 = 3200 SSG/800 Super Saiyan Blue
EoB/Start of ToP Ultra Instinct = 6400 SSG/1600 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP SSB = 320 SSG/80 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP KKBluex20 = 6400 SSG/1600 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP Ultra Instinct = 12800 SSG/3200 Super Saiyan Blue

Mastered Ultra Instinct = 25600 SSG/6400 Super Saiyan Blue

I'm not sure if I'd put Goku's SSB at the End of ToP on his first Ultra Instinct level, but if we do that it becomes:

End of ToP SSB = 6400 SSG/1600 Super Saiyan Blue
EoToP SSBKKx20 = 128 000 SSG/32000 Super Saiyan Blue
EoToP Ultra Instinct = 256 000 SSG/64000 Super Saiyan Blue

Mastered Ultra Instinct = 512 000 SSG/128 000 Super Saiyan Blue

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Next we'll move onto Power Levels. For this purpose, I'll make Goku at 100 million. Beerus said Goku couldn't beat Frieza at his base form, yet he shouldn't have been far off. 100 million makes him within reason of Frieza's power level, but still below it. It seems like a fair number to base it off of. BoG again, will be our baseline

BoG
Base = 100 million
SS = 5 billion
SS2 = 10 billion
SS3 = 40 Billion
SSG = 80 billion

RoF
Base = 200 million
SS = 10 billion
SS2 = 20 billion
SS3 = 80 billion
SSG = 160 billion
SSB = 320 billion

Universe 6 Tournament
Base = 400 million
SS = 20 billion
SS2 = 40 billion
SS3 = 160 billion
SSG = 320 billion
SSB = 640 billion
SSBKKx20 = 12.8 trillion

End of Black saga/Start of ToP
Base = 8 billion
SS = 400 billion
SS2 = 800 billion
SS3 = 3.2 trillion
SSG = 6.4 trillion
SSB = 12.8 trillion
SSBKKx20 = 256 trillion
Ultra Instinct = 512 trillion

End of ToP
Base = 16 billion
SS = 800 billion
SS2 = 1.6 trillion
SS3 = 6.4 trillion
SSG = 12.8 trillion
SSB = 25.6 trillion
SSBKKx20 = 512 trillion
Ultra Instinct = 1.024 Quadrillion
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 2.048 Quadrillion

I'm not doing power levels on if Goku went to UI at the end of ToP in his Blue form though.

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I'll use Galan's post as a higher point now. No power levels though. He said SSG could be 50 times SS3, and Blue could be ten times as powerful as Red. I will also make UI 4 times as powerful as SSBKKx20. I will still keep MUI twice as powerful though, even though that also seems to be a quadruple too. I will still however be doubling everything, and keeping the same power increases.

Keep in mind Goku was more powerful than everyone else in SS3 by Battle of the Gods. Likely at least 1.5 times more powerful, or maybe even twice as powerful. Anyone else can figure that out though.

SS3 = 400 times base
SSG = 20 000 times base/50 SS3
SSB = 200 000 times base/500 SS3/10 SSG
SSBKKx20 = 4 million times base/10 000 SS3/200 SSG
Ultra Instinct = 16 million times base/40 000 SS3/800 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 32 million times base/80 000 SS3/1600 SSG

My baseline will be SS3 here. Again, everything will double except where otherwise stated

SS3 is SS3 Goku from BoG
SSG is SSG from BoG

Battle of Gods SSG = 50 SS3
RoF SSB = 1000 SS3/20 SSG
U6 Tourney SSB = 2000 SS3/40 SSG
U6 SSBKKx20 = 40 000 SS3/800 SSG
End of Black/Start of ToP Blue = 40 000 SS3/800 SSG
EoB/Start of ToP SSBKKx20 = 800 000 SS3/16 000 SSG
Ultra Instinct Start of ToP = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
End of ToP SSB = 80 000 SS3/1600 SSG
End of ToP SSBKKx20 = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
End of ToP Ultra Instinct = 12.8 million SS3/256 000 SSG

Mastered Ultra Instinct = 25.6 million SS3/512 000 SSG

If we assume Goku became Ultra Instinct level at the end of ToP in his Blue form:

EoToP SSBlue = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
EoToP SSBKKx20 = 64 million SS3/1.28 million SSG
EoToP Ultra Instinct = 256 million SS3/5.12 million SSG

Master Ultra Instinct = 512 million SS3/10.24 million SSG

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So yeah. I don't think the Manga will have that sort of scaling. KKx20 really throws it out of proportion. And that second Hit fight benefits Goku greatly, which is something the Manga lacked.

The actual statements and assuming astronomical amps make it go from ridiculous to completely off the walls though. Beerus was evidently using barely any power. 😂

Wasn't Start of ToP SSB KKx20 < End of ToP SSB? I mean hell, end of ToP SSB was stronger that first appearance noob UI.

SSB EoToP did decent, but I'm not sure I'd put him on that level. Jiren was kind of screwing around with him. Regardless, I added him on that level just to see what that'd look like.

We know SSBKKx20 did as good as noob UI though, so it feels a lot safer to put him on that level.

What Goku's random powerups mean is that Vegeta walked into that tournament way higher than anyone else on the team. Imagine if he was getting up from getting completely drained multiple times.

I'm totally done arguing this. Literally every single post you've made is in outright denial of feats performed by characters in the show, statements made about the characters, and multipliers accepted as canon. You're clearly too stubborn to listen to reason at this point, so it's not even worth it anymore.

Regardless, the multipliers I posted are all accurate, and at LEAST supported by source material. No one has posted anything to refute what I've said, and has only blatantly denied it out of sheer unwillingness to accept it.

I'm disappointed in you all.

You're not done, Galan wants you in his bedroom.

Go back there and finish him off, Gogeta.

Galan is right regarding the multipliers in DBZ: a 2x gap was more than enough to effortlessly stomp the opponent.

But this is also the main argument which makes DBS Goku so much, much stronger than before. Think about SSB KKx20 for a moment: the gap between SSB KKx20 and SSB is much larger than the boosts that Ssj2 and Ssj3 used to give, COMBINED.

Just by going KKx20 on top of Blue Goku gets a power boost which basically shits all over half or more of DBZ, as doing so he increases his power (in terms of multiplier) much more than what he did over the course of the Cell and Boo sagas, once again COMBINED.

SSB KKx20 Goku is 2.5 times stronger than a hypothetical SSB3 Goku. Let it sink in for a moment.

DBS powerscaling is pure madness, but in its craziness, it somewhow explains and justifies Goku going in raw power from being multi-solar system level as Ssj3 during the Boo saga to universal as SSB KKx20.

And don't let me even start with UI: just each time he unlocked UI Omen he was implied to become stronger than before, and that happened 3 times.
And then, finally, there is MUI, whose power boost made 3rd time-unlocked UI Omen Goku's level look like child's play...

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
I'm totally done arguing this. Literally every single post you've made is in outright denial of feats performed by characters in the show, statements made about the characters, and multipliers accepted as canon. You're clearly too stubborn to listen to reason at this point, so it's not even worth it anymore.

Regardless, the multipliers I posted are all accurate, and at LEAST supported by source material. No one has posted anything to refute what I've said, and has only blatantly denied it out of sheer unwillingness to accept it.

I'm disappointed in you all.

I was just trying to show you what your argument leads into, and that is that if the SS multipliers were still carefully thought out - while you yourself admit he was SSG level at base and he could amp hundreds of times on top of it - it means Goku got at least a thousand times more powerful at the absolute least within one saga. It means that Goku's SSG was 500 times more powerful within one saga at the very least.

I just want you to be aware of that, yet you keep acting like "Where is this coming from, I don't understand why you'd say this!"

DBS is inconsistent, and hands out power levels like candy, but I don't think it was that inconsistent is what I'm saying to sum it up as. It's really not that difficult of an argument. Even you admit it was inconsistent enough to a point where you had to pretend God Ki was a secret amp he could apply, and only when he got good feats was he using his max power.
Me and Galan are used to comics where we see this thing almost daily. If it wasn't a retcon, it was a severe outlier and again inconsistent with how they portrayed him after RoF. If something largely goes away, it's not hard to see that the writers wanted to phase this out.

And if you'd actually read my power scaling post at the top there, you'd see I'm not opposed to how powerful he became. It's just that the two movies and arcs based on the movies seemed to follow its own rules and then both the manga and especially the anime diverged from there.

Lol at you being disappointed in us just because we don't think the SS concept was even mildly explored along with the implications along that time.
Also Goku's base leading into ToP was close to his SS2 form in BoG, at the absolute minimum. Which explains why he was able to do well against Buu in base and get decent feats. If he was SSG at base along with all his power upgrades that came with it, he should have wiped Buu out of existence with a flick.

^ Most DBS hyper-fans don't want to admit that NO thought whatsoever went into DBS multipliers(especially when the ToP rolled around.) Instead they'd rather try to 'logically' scale the illogical, and expect people to buy the figures they throw around...cuz reasons.

Based on everything I've seen about Toriyama these days, he just gives the most basic plot-points to the Toei animation team, and they fill in the gaps however they want. No joke. I've read a lot of the storyboards Toriyama has written and submitted to Toei(even posted several of them here) -- he only provides the barest of minimums and lets them do the rest.

All Toriyama likely told them is something to the effect of: "I want omen-UI to appear a few times and be way more powerful than SSB. I want Goku to master UI at some point and become the strongest Goku ever. All the while I want Jiren to be super-strong and be able to hang with Goku, because he's Hakaishin-level... Oh, and lets have Vegeta and #17 do some cool shit too!"

...And Toei simply made that happen. But if you think they actually put any conscious/logical thought at all into establishing a strict set of multipliers or w/e, then you're a f*cking idiot. DBS is many things, but 'logical' and 'consistent' are certainly not among them.

Originally posted by bbrem123
Wasn't Start of ToP SSB KKx20 < End of ToP SSB? I mean hell, end of ToP SSB was stronger that first appearance noob UI.

And the implications of that are obviously immense, given that a weaker Jiren had effortlessly ragdolled SSB Goku /w/ KKx20 when they first met... Yet a few minutes later in the story, a fatigued SSB Goku(unamped) can now contend with a more powerful Jiren?

...You can't help but laugh at stupidity like that. 😂

Hats off to you One Big Mob. I actually read all of your posts here. great stuff. clapclap

I like you. 👆

bump

Stupid thread SSJ4 gets erased by a simple glare from UI.

👆