Originally posted by SSJGGogetaGohan had a decent fight with Goku while both were impressed with each other.
1. Gohan never seriously competed with Goku, iirc, in DBS. Regardless, him getting thousands of times stronger by training vigorously, after not training for years, would not be strange at all. His latent potential has always been insane.2. As Galan pointed out, the god ki in base form concept is wildly inconsistent, and has been for the most part retconned. Regardless, we also see Goku in base being on par with/superior to an amped Majin Buu. The problem with DBS is that it's very inconsistent, but regardless, we see the intent was clearly to make Goku much stronger in base than he was as a SSJ3 in DBZ. Him going into other SSJ forms and holding back while fighting weaker people is just fan-service at this point, so they wouldn't get rid of his other forms altogether, imo.
3. Wrong. I'm sorry if you don't realize it, but you're not even using logic here. Like, at all. Your argument isn't even linear, and your makeshift scaling in an attempt to downplay mine, isn't even mathematically accurate, lol.
4. Regardless, it's clear that Goku post BoG's can use godly ki in all of his other forms. Whether or not he decides to is a different matter altogether. He can still use regular ki, otherwise no one would be able to sense him at all. If he just sticks to regular ki and goes SSJ, it's unclear how strong he is. Regardless, using godly ki as a SSJ3 should easily make my scaling accurate. Remember, I'm trying to determine his max- not his average(holding back massive amounts of power).
5. Um okay? SSJG may well be a 10x boost to SSJ3, but clearly Goku went from fighting somewhat around Beerus' level as a SSJG, to fighting just as well with him as a SSJ1. This doesn't mean that SSJG somehow doesn't make him stronger anymore- you're misinterpreting what happened. It means that he can now use godly ki in forms other than SSJG. SSJG can still be an amp, by increasing the amount of godly ki he uses. This isn't that complicated, dude.
6. Uh, nowhere did I even try to measure the gap between regular ki and godly ki. Going by my scale, RoF base Goku should be well above pre-BoG's Goku's SSJ3 form. As I've pointed out, he was able to effortlessly dominate 4th form RoF Frieza, who should be something around twice as strong as Buutenks. I'm not sure where you're coming up with the "1,000", "500", and "2,000"'s from.
Anyways, going by "my logic", the first time Goku used SSJG(the red form) it made him MARGINALLY stronger, in all of his forms- allowing him to go from getting lol-stomped by a less-than-1% Beerus as a SSJ3, to fighting somewhat evenly with him as a SSJ1. This means that post-BoG's, his SSJG form should be much stronger as well- assuming that it scales with the other forms. It would be very odd if SSJG stayed the same strength, while all the other forms were massively boosted. (and don't bring up the Beerus fight, claiming that should put his SSJ3 above Beerus- Beerus and Whiss both clearly admitted that he was holding back most of his power)
And no, Gohan would have had to get over 11 thousand times stronger to compete with base Goku from RoF. Keep in mind Goku got more powerful to the U6 tourney, and then he apparently got 20 times more powerful when he stalemated Assassin Hit after the Black series. Which means Gohan would have at least had to get 200 000 times stronger to even hope to challenge a holding back Goku.
And this was before Gohan even trained to unlock his Mystic form, which I believe was said that he wasn't even as powerful as anymore. Goku in the meantime was fighting everything.
It's not wildly inconsistent enough to exist in other forms though. It was originally intended to be his base, but as we saw later God ki was only in his actual God forms.
Also the Buu fight could be as simple as him being incredibly skilled. A couple examples do not override the overwhelming examples though. Goku's base being that strong is largely gone outside a few cases. He has much more examples of having trouble with these feebs than being over SS3 level.
It is though. Which is why you won't even pretend to talk about the implications.
It's not clear at all. Everytime he uses Godly Ki it's shown as a transformation or a very quick one.
Plus how does that even change anything in my argument anyway? So he can use Godly ki and then overlap a 400 times boost on top of that? And we assume SSG is still an amp so that amps him even further? I realize you're making this up so you can ignore every other feat but him looking incredible in base but it still flows into my issues with this scaling.
It still means all of my problems with the scaling are accurate, but you cover your ass by saying that I can bring up nothing Goku does to say he isn't that powerful because he's using his never before stated, no indication Godly Ki to secretly amp his forms.
He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it. And I didn't say SSG was a 10 times boost to SS3 or even come close to saying that. I said SSG was at least a ten times boost to SSONE, since SS3 is an 8 times boost. Actually this whole number 5 section of yours proves you don't understand what I said at all.
Look, even you said SSG can still amp him and is greater than SS3. You also think that even with already using Godly energy, SS3 can amp him 400 times on top of that. Which using my scaling, SSG would still be a 500 times amp from his base, so... I don't even think you know what I'm saying.
6. Look let's shift it to exactly what you're saying and give it very small amounts so you can stop getting completely confused.
If we use your scaling and your words, that means SS1 Goku from RoF = SSG from BoG. That means that SS3 would beat 8 times stronger than SSG from BoG. Using my scaling of lowball estimates, that would mean that SSG from RoF would be ten times stronger than SSG from BoG. That would mean that noob SSBlue is 20 times stronger than SSG from BoG.
That is directly from what your words are saying.
My problem is that I don't think Goku's multipliers were actually considered while he was actually God level at base, otherwise you have at the minimum stupid shit like this. There's no ****ing way Frieza was considered over 20 times more powerful than BoG Goku. We've already seen Beerus get retconned a ton, why is it so hard to believe that Goku's base got retconned as well when nothing supports him keeping this base level outside few and far between showings, and you have to invent an invisible never said powerup to make sense of it.
Yes, him adding Godly ki would make everything fit together better. I never said otherwise. The issue is that was not said to be the case where he could add bits and pieces to every transformation.
And no, I'm not saying it didn't make every form better. Actually read my post. I'm saying that this God Form base went away the second transormation multipliers stuck around. If it stuck around it makes a mess of everything.
Because Goku's base form could reach SSG levels from BoG... in BoG too. Invisible divine Ki powerup or not. That leads us to Goku getting at least 1000 times more powerful in RoF if we factor in multipliers.
As you already said, his forms still amp him the correct amount even with the off panel divine Ki boosts. That means again, not sure why I have to spell it out, that SS3 is 400 times more powerful than SSG from BoG. And because you might not still know what I'm saying, I'll make a little chart.
If the multiplers are still in effect factoring in the secret divine ki, this is what we get. Left side is RoF. Right side is Bog. This ignores training and that stuff and only factors in multipliers.
Your direct words with my lowball estimates:
SS1 Goku = SSG
SS2 Goku is twice as powerful as SSG
SS3 Goku is 8 times as powerful as SSG
SSG is ten times as powerful as SSG
SSB is 20 times as powerful as SSG
The reality of what it actually is
Base Goku = BoG Goku
SS1 Goku is 50 times more powerful than SSG
SS2 Goku is 100 times more powerful than SSG
SS3 Goku is 400 times more powerful than SSG
SSG is 500 times more powerful than SSG
SSB is 1000 times more powerful than SSG
Do you see what my problem is now? The series already has massive issues with scaling (if you double Goku's power every saga he already becomes thousands of times more powerful than BoG Twink God). If we factor in his base being God form it goes completely overboard... in the next saga.
It got retconned away is what I'm saying. He'll still get good feats in base as he did get more powerful and also inconsistent writing, but it isn't the norm anymore. It however was intended to be his base in the movies and SS forms were being done away. Unfortunately he changed his mind to give losers like Gohan a chance to be relevant.
If you want a more accurate way to measure DBS using the anime, you can simply use the logic that they double their power from every saga and still come out with some stupid shit.
If you start at BoG SSG Goku and make that his base and assume Blue is only a two times amp you get something like this:
BoG SSG Goku
RoF SSG is twice as powerful
RoF Blue is 4 times as powerful
U6 Blue is 8 times as powerful
U6 KKx20 is 160 times as powerful
After Black saga Blue Goku is 160 times more powerful via stalemating non holding back Hit
Let's say end of ToP Goku Blue is 320 times more powerful
KKx20 Goku is 6400 times more powerful
Let's assume UI is a double boost to that and MUI is a double boost to that.
MUI Goku is 25600 times more powerful than BoG Goku.
Those are low estimates and it still comes out to a stupid level. The saga is already wildly inconsistent enough without factoring in base God Goku or even SS1 Goku being equal BoG Goku to say the least 😂
If DB has proven anything since the Freeza saga, it's that relatively small differences in power can still allow one character to utterly STOMP another character.
-n00b-SSJ Goku was only about 20% more powerful than 100% Freeza, yet stomped him decisively in the manga.
-Imperfect Cell was somewhere around 2x Kamiccolo/#17-level, yet stomped both of them with almost no effort at all.
-FPSSJ Goku was likely between 2-3x ASSJ Vegeta, yet was considered vastly more powerful.
-SSJ2 Gohan was LESS THAN 2x Perfect Cell, yet casually beat the ever-loving shit out of him.
-Mystic Gohan was LESS THAN 2x Super Boo, yet casually beat the ever-loving shit out of him.
-Bootenks was LESS THAN 2x Mystic Gohan, yet casually beat the ever-loving shit out of him.
etc. etc. etc.
Some people tend to 'forget' this when they discuss DBS multipliers. Before you know it they're talking about multipliers in the hundredS of thousandS(cuz reasons), when DB-logic has historically...and consistently...told us that the SAME type of [major] differences between characters can exist, with astronomically lower multipliers.
Frankly, SSG could have 'just' been 50x SSJ3, and Goku would've still considered it to be an astronomically massive amp, that put him in a whole new realm of power that he could have NEVER reached otherwise... And frankly, that *would* indeed be the case, considering his power seemed to have plateaued by the start of BoG.
As for the SSG to SSB multiplier: the only piece of evidence suggestive of what it might be occurred in the manga's rendition of the U6vs.U7 Tournament, wherein Whis implied that SSG is around 1/10 of SSB(ie. SSB is 10x SSG):
https://i.imgur.com/52x7csU.jpg
...But that's not a discussion I'm getting into here. Just mentioning it because again, it suggests that there doesn't have to be these laughably overinflated multipliers for characters in DBS to be as powerful as they are.
srug
👆
Yeah, I didn't know the actual multipliers so I just lowballed it hard. SSG being ten times SS1 for example.
DBZ and onwards has always had at least a 2 times amp on any transformation though. So realistically it'd be at least 16 times SS1 at the minimum. To reach the levels it'd need to to beat Vegito out it'd be probably 100 times SS3...
But yeah Blue being ten times God would lead to some stupid levels.
I'm just going to play it safe and go double double. Which would make Twink twice as strong as SS3, and Blue twice as strong as Twink. So Blue is 32 times as strong as SS1.
The absolute minimum they'd be I think would be ten times SS1 and twice that. So Blue is 20 times SS1.
And if you really wanted to pick a power level out for I guess BoG, and go onwards you could just assume he's equal to Frieza's full power and just go by multipliers. Then make it as messy as you want.
It's probably pretty close to Namek insanity by now if not worse.
But there again: Vegito could have 'just' been between 2-4x Boohan, and would have still rape-stomped him just as effortlessly -- and being 2-4x Boohan would have still put Vegito worlds beyond SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan... IOW, the SSJ3 to SSG multiplier doesn't necessarily *have* to be anywhere near 100x for SSG to still be FAR beyond Vegito... Even a 50x boost over SSJ3 would be MORE than enough, imo. /shrug
Oh, I'm not going to attempt scaling ToP multipliers, ever. They are so far into the realm of facepalm-worthy ridiculousness that there's no way to even ballpark them at this point. 😘
Originally posted by Galan007I was just assuming Base form was at least around SS3 Goku level because of the anime fight, base Vegito damaging Merged Zamasu, and the Kefla fight.
But there again: Vegito could have 'just' been between 2-4x Boohan, and would have still rape-stomped him just as effortlessly -- and being 2-4x Boohan would have still put Vegito worlds beyond SSJ3 Goku and Mystic Gohan... IOW, the SSJ3 to SSG multiplier doesn't necessarily *have* to be anywhere near 100x for SSG to still be FAR beyond Vegito... Even a 50x boost over SSJ3 would be MORE than enough, imo. /shrugOh, I'm not going to attempt scaling ToP multipliers, ever. They are so far into the realm of facepalm-worthy ridiculousness that there's no way to even ballpark them at this point. 😘
I'm going to do it I think in depth with multipliers and exact power levels in a lowball estimate. Later today though.
It's going to be a disaster. I just have to work up the energy to grab my computer today.
Originally posted by One Big MobSo you're using the anime as your primary reference? I wouldn't when at all possible, tbh -- the manga has been a LOT more consistent with powerlevels in general. You're also going with the logic that Goku's standard/non-god forms are always intended hyper-amped for the purposes of this scaling(even though they aren't), I take it?
I was just assuming Base form was at least around SS3 Goku level because of the anime fight, base Vegito damaging Merged Zamasu, and the Kefla fight.
I would be more than fine with it only being a couple times Buuhan though.I'm going to do it I think in depth with multipliers and exact power levels in a lowball estimate. Later today though.
It's going to be a disaster. I just have to work up the energy to grab my computer today.
Tbh, I don't see how you can even begin to come up with accurate ToP multipliers, but cheers for even trying to make sense out of the nonsensical. 👆
...Personally, I'm not even going to think about scaling the ToP until after the manga's rendition of it is finished. I feel like it will be way more cohesive(and quantifiable) than the anime has been.
Originally posted by Galan007Yeah, anime. Just because it has some actual numbers attached to it, and a little more feats to go off of. It's pretty much everything I've been saying recently but with actual numbers and what they mean.
So you're using the anime as your primary reference? I wouldn't when at all possible, tbh -- the manga has been a LOT more consistent with powerlevels in general. You're also going with the logic that Goku's standard/non-god forms are always intended hyper-amped for the purposes of this scaling(even though they aren't), I take it?Tbh, I don't see how you can even begin to come up with accurate ToP multipliers, but cheers for even trying to make sense out of the nonsensical. 👆
...Personally, I'm not even going to think about scaling the ToP until after the manga's rendition of it is finished. I feel like it will be way more cohesive(and quantifiable) than the anime has been.
Ignoring the God base forms entirely just like the majority of Super. Starting Goku at 100 million so it'd put him as a good fight for Frieza, but still below him. All I'm going to do is double everything to give a low estimate unless otherwise stated. It's still going to go pretty off the wall I imagine.
I'll have some basis, but I still think everything will come out at the very low end of what the reality is.
Well, you at least know what the Kaioken multipliers are for sure(duh), and you can assume that anytime character 'A' stomps the bejesus out of character 'B', they are no less than 2x more powerful(that's how DB has always worked.)
You'll start running into problems in later episodes of the ToP, though, because that's where things started going sideways... That's when a baseline SSB Goku(no KK) was basically shown to be substantially more powerful than he was the first 2 times he accessed n00b-UI, thanks to his fights with Jiren. Shit like that.
Truly this will be a herculean effort on your end. 👆
For the purposes of this, I'm going to assume some things. Going by how every transformation has been at least double in DBZ/Super I will only be going by doubling the last transformation unless otherwise stated.
For example:
Oozaru = 10 times base
Kaio-Ken = 2 times to 20 times
Super Saiyan = 50 times base
Super Saiyan 2 = 100 times base/2 times Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan 3 = 400 times base/4 times Super Saiyan 2/8 times Super Saiyan 1
These are established multipliers. Now I go into assumption. As we see, everything is at least twice the last form. So I will use that low estimate to assume what the Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue multipliers are. As well as UI and MUI. Again, low estimate.
Super Saiyan God = 800 times base/2 times Super Saiyan 3/16 times Super Saiyan 1
Super Saiyan Blue = 1600 times base/2 times Super Saiyan God/32 times Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken times 20 = 32000 times base/20 times Super Saiyan Blue/40 times Super Saiyan God/640 times Super Saiyan 1
Ultra Instinct = 64000 times base/2 times Super Saiyan KKx20/80 times Super Saiyan God/1280 times Super Saiyan 1
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 128 000 times base/2 times Ultra Instinct/80 times Super Saiyan Blue/160 times Super Saiyan God/2560 times Super Saiyan 1
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So I think that's fair. That is the multipliers I'm going with. So next, I am going to go through the Sagas. As with what we've seen in DBZ, the characters seem to get at least twice as powerful as they were the last saga. So I think 2 times is a fair assumption going saga to saga.
Super Saiyan God will be my baseline in this one. I will be ignoring the lesser forms of Super Saiyan, as well as Goku's base form. After the Black Saga Goku stalemated full assassin Hit, so that will be our baseline for the start of the Tournament of Power. The end of Tournament of Power, I will be assuming Goku doubled in power, which is backed up by the fact that his SSBlueKKx20 did about as well as his Ultra Instinct did.
Battle of the Gods = 1 SSG
Resurrection of F Super Saiyan Blue = 2 SSG
Universe 6 Tournament SSB = 4 SSG/2 Super Saiyan Blue
Universe 6 Super Saiyan BlueKKx20 = 160 SSG/40 Super Saiyan Blue
End of Black Saga/Start of ToP SSB = 160 SSG/40 Super Saiyan Blue
EoB/Start of ToP SSBlue KKx20 = 3200 SSG/1600 Super Saiyan Blue
EoB/Start of ToP Ultra Instinct = 6400 SSG/3200 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP SSB = 320 SSG/80 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP KKBluex20 = 6400 SSG/3200 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP Ultra Instinct = 12800 SSG/6400 Super Saiyan Blue
End of ToP Mastered Ultra Instinct = 25600 SSG/12800 Super Saiyan Blue
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Next we'll move onto Power Levels. For this purpose, I'll make Goku at 100 million. Beerus said Goku couldn't beat Frieza at his base form, yet he shouldn't have been far off. 100 million makes him within reason of Frieza's power level, but still below it. It seems like a fair number to base it off of. BoG again, will be our baseline
BoG
Base = 100 million
SS = 5 billion
SS2 = 10 billion
SS3 = 40 Billion
SSG = 80 billion
RoF
Base = 200 million
SS = 10 billion
SS2 = 20 billion
SS3 = 80 billion
SSG = 160 billion
SSB = 320 billion
Universe 6 Tournament
Base = 400 million
SS = 20 billion
SS2 = 40 billion
SS3 = 160 billion
SSG = 320 billion
SSB = 640 billion
SSBKKx2 = 12.8 trillion
End of Black saga/Start of ToP
Base = 8 billion
SS = 400 billion
SS2 = 800 billion
SS3 = 3.2 trillion
SSG = 6.4 trillion
SSB = 12.8 trillion
SSBKKx20 = 256 trillion
Ultra Instinct = 512 trillion
End of ToP
Base = 16 billion
SS = 800 billion
SS2 = 1.6 trillion
SS3 = 6.4 trillion
SSG = 12.8 trillion
SSB = 25.6 trillion
SSBKKx20 = 512 trillion
Ultra Instinct = 1.024 Quadrillion
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 2.048 Quadrillion
Now of course these aren't exact. Though I think the God levels are a little more accurate and based off what we've seen a lot more possible to be accurate. I think double is more than fair on God from Blue, though narration does seem to disagree. SS3 to God however at least according to the first movie/manga/arc does seem to be a little more than double though. If that's the case, it wouldn't be too hard to shift them. You could keep the estimates on the God forms and simply up it to whatever degree the multipliers are SS3 are.
Ultra Instinct does seem to be around 4 times SSBKKx20 as well based on Vegeta's new form, but again, I went low to be safe.
Again, this is the lowball estimates, so IMO this would be the minimum of the power levels that the characters are operating on. Still pretty high though. 😐
I also probably screwed up an estimate somewhere using my own guidelines as well. Probably point that out.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Gohan had a decent fight with Goku while both were impressed with each other.
YouTube videoAnd no, Gohan would have had to get over 11 thousand times stronger to compete with base Goku from RoF. Keep in mind Goku got more powerful to the U6 tourney, and then he apparently got 20 times more powerful when he stalemated Assassin Hit after the Black series. Which means Gohan would have at least had to get 200 000 times stronger to even hope to challenge a holding back Goku.
And this was before Gohan even trained to unlock his Mystic form, which I believe was said that he wasn't even as powerful as anymore. Goku in the meantime was fighting everything.It's not wildly inconsistent enough to exist in other forms though. It was originally intended to be his base, but as we saw later God ki was only in his actual God forms.
Also the Buu fight could be as simple as him being incredibly skilled. A couple examples do not override the overwhelming examples though. Goku's base being that strong is largely gone outside a few cases. He has much more examples of having trouble with these feebs than being over SS3 level.It is though. Which is why you won't even pretend to talk about the implications.
It's not clear at all. Everytime he uses Godly Ki it's shown as a transformation or a very quick one.
Plus how does that even change anything in my argument anyway? So he can use Godly ki and then overlap a 400 times boost on top of that? And we assume SSG is still an amp so that amps him even further? I realize you're making this up so you can ignore every other feat but him looking incredible in base but it still flows into my issues with this scaling.
It still means all of my problems with the scaling are accurate, but you cover your ass by saying that I can bring up nothing Goku does to say he isn't that powerful [b]because he's using his never before stated, no indication Godly Ki to secretly amp his forms.He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it. And I didn't say SSG was a 10 times boost to SS3 or even come close to saying that. I said SSG was at least a ten times boost to SSONE, since SS3 is an 8 times boost. Actually this whole number 5 section of yours proves you don't understand what I said at all.
Look, even you said SSG can still amp him and is greater than SS3. You also think that even with already using Godly energy, SS3 can amp him 400 times on top of that. Which using my scaling, SSG would still be a 500 times amp from his base, so... I don't even think you know what I'm saying.6. Look let's shift it to exactly what you're saying and give it very small amounts so you can stop getting completely confused.
If we use your scaling and your words, that means SS1 Goku from RoF = SSG from BoG. That means that SS3 would beat 8 times stronger than SSG from BoG. Using my scaling of lowball estimates, that would mean that SSG from RoF would be ten times stronger than SSG from BoG. That would mean that noob SSBlue is 20 times stronger than SSG from BoG.
That is directly from what your words are saying.
My problem is that I don't think Goku's multipliers were actually considered while he was actually God level at base, otherwise you have at the minimum stupid shit like this. There's no ****ing way Frieza was considered over 20 times more powerful than BoG Goku. We've already seen Beerus get retconned a ton, why is it so hard to believe that Goku's base got retconned as well when nothing supports him keeping this base level outside few and far between showings, and you have to invent an invisible never said powerup to make sense of it.Yes, him adding Godly ki would make everything fit together better. I never said otherwise. The issue is that was not said to be the case where he could add bits and pieces to every transformation.
And no, I'm not saying it didn't make every form better. Actually read my post. I'm saying that this God Form base went away the second transormation multipliers stuck around. If it stuck around it makes a mess of everything.
Because Goku's base form could reach SSG levels from BoG... in BoG too. Invisible divine Ki powerup or not. That leads us to Goku getting at least 1000 times more powerful in RoF if we factor in multipliers.
As you already said, his forms still amp him the correct amount even with the off panel divine Ki boosts. That means again, not sure why I have to spell it out, that SS3 is 400 times more powerful than SSG from BoG. And because you might not still know what I'm saying, I'll make a little chart.If the multiplers are still in effect factoring in the secret divine ki, this is what we get. Left side is RoF. Right side is Bog. This ignores training and that stuff and only factors in multipliers.
Do you see what my problem is now? The series already has massive issues with scaling (if you double Goku's power every saga he already becomes thousands of times more powerful than BoG Twink God). If we factor in his base being God form it goes completely overboard... in the next saga.It got retconned away is what I'm saying. He'll still get good feats in base as he did get more powerful and also inconsistent writing, but it isn't the norm anymore. It however was intended to be his base in the movies and SS forms were being done away. Unfortunately he changed his mind to give losers like Gohan a chance to be relevant. [/B]
Holy ****, that is a LOT of words for you to not add a SINGLE substantial argument to the conversation.
1. Yes, base Gohan would have to become over 11,000 times stronger to be on par with the level of base form Goku. It's no surprise that the gap between the two is outrageously vast at this point. Even in the ToP, Gohan isn't even comparable to the likes of Goku. One instance of Goku and Gohan joke-sparring isn't enough evidence to somehow suggest that Gohan ~ Goku, when Goku in base toyed with an enemy that oneshot SSJ1 Gohan 😆
2. Everything you're saying is based on assumptions, and the implication that Toriyama retconned Goku being able to use Godly ki in base form, lmao. Even IF Goku can't use Godly ki in any other form, his feats still CLEARLY show that he's far beyond his DBZ SSJ3 counterpart, even in base form. He fought on par with an amped fat Buu in base form, fought on par with Beerus as a SSJ1, managed to overpower a black hole easily in base form(while Androids 17 and 18 were unable to even stand), easily dominated Zamasu as a SSJ1(or maybe SSJ2, who was stronger than all the Supreme Kai's put together), and uh, let's not forget that BASE GOKU TANKED Sidra's hakaishin energy, which Golden Frieza struggled with(and should have been strong enough to erase 4th form Frieza).
Goku plays around with other characters while holding back, to make it more of a challenge and to make it more fair for the person he's fighting. Beerus even said he was overly dramatic when he's fighting.
3. It was outright stated by Beerus that Goku absorbed godly ki into his base form. Every other piece of the swath of dreck you just typed out was either totally incoherent, or outright facetious. The feats are clearly on my side, as shown above. 👆
4. Maybe I would understand what you're arguing, if you understood what you're arguing. Half of your post is indecipherable, a quarter of it piggy-backs on your misunderstanding of Galan's posts, and the other quarter is sheer make-believe. I understand you're trying, but ffs, try harder.
5. "He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it."
Am, I misreading this quote, or did you just blatantly agree with me, and then call me an idiot for stating the thing you agree with in the first place? 😕
6. I never said any of the shit you just claimed I said. Stop putting words in my posts to make yourself seem more justified, you neanderthal.
As a matter of fact, I believe that base Goku from RoF was on a level approaching his SSJG form from BoG's. His SSJG form would conversely be MUCH stronger. I deduced this belief from a variety of facts, statements, and feats from the series. Do I think 4th Form Frieza was 20X more powerful than SSJG BoG's Goku? Uh, no, and I never even implied that to be the case. You're making shit up. Do I believe Golden Frieza from RoF was VASTLY stronger than BoG's SSJG Goku? IN FACT, I KNOW THAT TO BE THE CASE. As Galan pointed out, it was stated by Whis that SSJB was a 10X boost to SSJG. RoF Goku in base form was VASTLY stronger than his BoG's SSJ3 counterpart, and approaching his n00b SSJG level from BoG's.
THEREFOR: Golden Frieza >= SSJB Goku = RoF SSJG Goku x10 >>>>> RoF base Goku > RoF 4th form Frieza = RoF 1st form Frieza x226 > SSJ1 RoF Gohan
What is it that you're not understanding here? You're literally arguing against facts, with statements like, "I don't think that's true". Just like with flat-Earth'ers, not believing in FACTS doesn't make them untrue, lmfao.
7. What you're saying makes no sense. Why are you suggesting that Gohan is still relevant to a serious Goku? Even if Goku couldn't use godly ki in his other forms, and even if he was still Gohan level in SSJ1, Goku still has about 5 forms above Gohan. Gohan is NOWHERE NEAR THE LEVEL OF GOKU. Just because Goku decided to have a little spar with his son to play around and toy with him a bit, doesn't mean that Gohan is somehow on par with Goku, lmfao.
Nothing you have claimed makes any difference to my argument. You're just denying it, and acting like you're right, and I'm somehow the idiot, lol. 👇
I'll use Galan's post as a higher point now. No power levels though. He said SSG could be 50 times SS3, and Blue could be ten times as powerful as Red. I will also make UI 4 times as powerful as SSBKKx20. I will still keep MUI twice as powerful though, even though that also seems to be a double. I will still however be doubling everything, and keeping the same power increases.
What this would look like is
SS3 = 400 times base
SSG = 20 000 times base/50 SS3
SSB = 200 000 times base/500 SS3/10 SSG
SSBKKx20 = 4 million times base/10 000 SS3/1000 SSG
Ultra Instinct = 16 million times base/40 000 SS3/4000 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 32 million times base/80 000 SS3/8000 SSG
------------------------
My baseline will be SS3 here. Again, everything will double except where otherwise stated
Battle of Gods SSG = 50 SS3
RoF SSB = 1000 SS3/20 SSG
U6 Tourney SSB = 2000 SS3/40 SSG
U6 SSBKKx20 = 40 000 SS3/800 SSG
End of Black/Start of ToP Blue = 40 000 SS3/800 SSG
EoB/Start of ToP SSBKKx20 = 800 000 SS3/16 000 SSG
Ultra Instinct Start of ToP = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
End of ToP SSB = 80 000 SS3/1600 SSG
End of ToP SSBKKx20 = 3.2 million SS3/64 000 SSG
End of ToP Ultra Instinct = 12.8 million SS3/256 000 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 25.6 million SS3/512 000 SSG
😐
Originally posted by Galan007
You're not understanding.The entire crux of mine and bran's argument is that Goku's standard SSJ forms being 'hyper-God-amped' is probably one of the single most inconsistent plot-points in DBS. Sometimes his standard forms appear to be God-amped, but more times than not, they don't appear to be anymore powerful than normal(the first scene I posted all but spells this out.) And again: Goku only generates Godly ki when he accesses SSG and upward -- his base-SSJ3 forms generate 'normal' ki exclusively(the second scene I posted all but spells this out as well.)
Please don't make this more than it is... Again.
Okay, well that's something to work with. While you can go around and talk about how inconsistent the series is all you want, I'm pointing out the fact that at his ABSOLUTE MAX, base Goku in RoF is clearly WELL beyond his SSJ3 DBZ counterpart, and you can easily calculate him to be above even the likes of Buutenks, as I've posted multiple times already.
I'm not interested in inconsistencies, which can easily be chalked up to CIS on Goku's part. Beerus and many others have stated in the past that Goku is very dramatic when he fights- which makes sense, given that he loves to fight. We're arguing DBS vs. GT here- and let's be honest, both are probably some of the most inconsistent anime's in existence at this point. SSJ4 Goku was cut by glass, and burned by lava, yet his base form towards the end was capable of tanking attacks from a universe buster(Omega Shenron). Arguing all the inconsistencies would be tedious at best, and most definitely a frivolous waste of time.
Also, I don't really care about the godly ki in other forms- it has no real purpose in this discussion.
You still haven't pointed out where I over-inflated any numbers in my calc btw. Should I take that as your concession of the point?
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaOK. You're not going to like what comes next then. 🙂
Holy ****, that is a LOT of words for you to not add a SINGLE substantial argument to the conversation.
I await the incoming tirades of how stupid I am and how I'm not understanding.
Now, let me try to make you understand what I'm saying before I get into my post
You think Base Goku was around BoG Goku's SSG form:
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
As a matter of fact, I believe that base Goku from RoF was on a level approaching his SSJG form from BoG's. His SSJG form would conversely be MUCH stronger. I deduced this belief from a variety of facts, statements, and feats from the series.
You think Base Goku from RoF can then, amp 400 times on top of this power:
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Honestly, that feat alone still puts base RoF Goku well over 30 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku. Now multiply that by 400, and you get SSJ3 RoF Goku, which would be at least around 800 times stronger than even Buutenks from DBZ. This would put SSJ3 RoF Goku around 12,800 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku.Then keep in mind that SSJB could easily be hundreds of times(if not more) powerful than SSJ3 Goku, and that Goku got multiple dozens of times stronger from that point, till the ToP, to the point he's at now where he's above a GoD.
What these two things combined mean, is that if RoF Goku went SS3, he would be 400 times BoG Super Saiyan God Goku.
These are the numbers you keep saying I'm putting into your post. That is why I keep saying "1000" times, because that is the bare minimum that Goku's noob Super Saiyan Blue form would be above Goku's Super Saiyan God form from BoG. His RoF Super Saiyan God form would be at the minimum 500 times his BoG Super Saiyan God form.
That is what the numbers mean. That is why I keep saying it. Please understand this. Whether you agree or disagree just please, understand this.
Now what I'm saying, is that the wild inconsistency of Super makes this doubtful to accept as the norm. I'm not saying this was not the case. I'm saying that it got passed over in favor of writing a story and giving everyone else a chance. You have to literally make up invisible forms for Goku's base being equal to BoG SSG Goku to make sense for the rest of the story. Yes Goku might get some decent feats in Base, but it doesn't mean this is the norm, no, rather the exception.
If Goku gets 100 shitty feats in base, but gets one good feat in base, why should we choose to accept his good feat as his true power? It might not mean a retcon per se, but it does leave a lot of doubt to take this as is. The same type of shit happens in comics all the time.
I'd love for Goku to be that strong in base as the accepted fact. I'm not saying he wasn't, I'm saying he isn't anymore on average, or even close to average. This is why I keep showing you what the end result of your points are (RoF base equals God) because it means Goku's power shot up at least a thousand times in one arc. And that's just not what happened. The SS multipliers got ignored, and once they were implemented again, it largely got his base back to normal.
I have a feeling this is going to fall on deaf ears. Anyway, here's the rest of your post:
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaI realize Gohan isn't as powerful as Goku. However, he was able to give a decent fight to Goku. Gohan would have had to increase his base 11 thousand times to match RoF Goku. This was Goku who got even more powerful. If Gohan didn't get more powerful, Goku would have had to have been using literal minuscule amounts of power to make Gohan have done that well.
1. Yes, base Gohan would have to become over 11,000 times stronger to be on par with the level of base form Goku. It's no surprise that the gap between the two is outrageously vast at this point. Even in the ToP, Gohan isn't even comparable to the likes of Goku. One instance of Goku and Gohan joke-sparring isn't enough evidence to somehow suggest that Gohan ~ Goku, when Goku in base toyed with an enemy that oneshot SSJ1 Gohan 😆
Either Gohan got 11 thousand times more powerful, Goku was using 0.01 percent of his power, or the show is wildly inconsistent and it forgot that Goku was intended to be this far above Gohan. One of those is likely. The other two are very far fetched. Hence why I keep saying "retcon" or "wildly inconsistent"
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaHis feats clearly show this even though you're using a very small handful of feats? I don't get the correlation there. What about every other fight he's had?
2. Everything you're saying is based on assumptions, and the implication that Toriyama retconned Goku being able to use Godly ki in base form, lmao. Even IF Goku can't use Godly ki in any other form, his feats still CLEARLY show that he's far beyond his DBZ SSJ3 counterpart, even in base form. He fought on par with an amped fat Buu in base form, fought on par with Beerus as a SSJ1, managed to overpower a black hole easily in base form(while Androids 17 and 18 were unable to even stand), easily dominated Zamasu as a SSJ1(or maybe SSJ2, who was stronger than all the Supreme Kai's put together), and uh, let's not forget that BASE GOKU TANKED Sidra's hakaishin energy, which Golden Frieza struggled with(and should have been strong enough to erase 4th form Frieza).Goku plays around with other characters while holding back, to make it more of a challenge and to make it more fair for the person he's fighting. Beerus even said he was overly dramatic when he's fighting.
3. It was outright stated by Beerus that Goku absorbed godly ki into his base form. Every other piece of the swath of dreck you just typed out was either totally incoherent, or outright facetious. The feats are clearly on my side, as shown above. 👆
The Beerus fight was when he was still considered/what it stemmed from, so we don't need to answer that. I have no intention to show he wasn't at that level at the time. My whole argument is that this has changed, so I don't even know why you brought that up. Not to mention, you're laughing at the idea of retcons while using Beerus as an example. The character who has had his power retconned to hell and back this show. First he was using all his power against Goku. Then a handful of Gods are above him. Then only the strongest GoD might be equal to him. Then he was using 70 percent of his power. Then he was using all his power while sleeping to hit base Goku/Vegeta with. Then Goku/Vegeta teamed up can beat him. Then we get the implication that Goku with Blue KKx20 could maybe defeat him. Then Vegito Blue might be above him. Then Ultra Instinct is above him. Then Jiren is above him. Then Vegeta Blue2 can overpower Gods, and might be above him. Then Jiren powering up to max might be above him. Then MUI might be above him.
Now we don't even know for sure. If you want to overrule the talk of retcons, probably don't bring up Beerus examples. Especially when he was canonically using point zero zero percentage of his power against SS1 Goku now... something that I mocked up above with Goku who doesn't have such a ridiculous control of his power.
The Buu fight is good though. Again, that inconsistency rears its head. That arc he also had to go Blue against Krillin, Gohan, Android 17. Also you keep speaking of Goku holding back even when he uses new forms, but why would Buu be going all out in this instance anyway?
And Android 17 is apparently Blue level. Why would you bring this up in an argument of consistency when Android 17 is many times over more powerful than Goku? You're not exactly helping the case there.
Zamasu at that point in time had no feats to say he was or wasn't anything special. All we know is he was weaker than SS2 Goku. That's literally all you can use to scale him off of. Future Zamasu in the anime was Blue-ish level though, but not the Zamasu Goku initially fought. Zamasu in the Manga was SS2 Trunks level though as well.
The energy thing was also inconsistent as well. Not sure why you'd bring up Frieza's plight to try and make a point though when he was exactly equal to Goku's blue form there.
That being said, Goku was completely trapped, and Frieza overpowered it and nulled it. And it was just a tiny bit of destruction energy.
That doesn't mean Goku is holding back to tiny percentages in that form though. That means Goku isn'g going all out. That doesn't mean Goku is using 1 percent of his power. That could also mean the man with 7 forms isn't using the best one as well. I don't know why you think this means he is not using God energy in that form.
I know he said that. What he didn't say however is that you can apply this in varying amounts to everyone of his forms. The initial belief of this was that it just amped everything without Goku trying. Not that he has secret God Ki he can apply like KK to everyone of his forms. That was never stated. Ever.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaYou literally do not understand what I'm saying in the least though. Your very next post says as such:
4. Maybe I would understand what you're arguing, if you understood what you're arguing. Half of your post is indecipherable, a quarter of it piggy-backs on your misunderstanding of Galan's posts, and the other quarter is sheer make-believe. I understand you're trying, but ffs, try harder.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaYou're not misreading because this is the first time you actually read what I said. I'm not arguing that Goku was or was not at that level during that time. I said it in my last post that he was God level during BoG. In fact I think I've said it every single post in this thread in retort to you. This is why you keep having issues with it because you literally are not reading anything I'm saying to the capacity needed to understand, and I really don't know how to make it any clearer.
5. "He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it."Am, I misreading this quote, or did you just blatantly agree with me, and then call me an idiot for stating the thing you agree with in the first place? 😕
Originally posted by One Big Mob
The problem is is that you're scaling from base Goku in that movie when he was supposed to be around God level as base at that point in time. As we have seen things have changed and Frieza has as well.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Except Goku and Frieza have lost this massive powerup as their base forms. Goku used to be far above ss3 Gotenks in baseAs we saw in BoG his base was intended to be God level, which would make it Twink level. SS3 was not an upgrade from that. But it was retconned.
What you're saying is that BoG was his default in power while he still retained all his multipliers and Blue and Red were far above this.
Originally posted by One Big Mob
Goku's base at that time was said to be at or near his BoG God form. Since he absorbed and maintained that level after it wore off.So if his base is at BoG levels and he still maintains the SS forms while you yourself have said God and Blue are far better than SS3 which you say is a 400 times boost to RoF...
If this is honestly the first time you think I've said he was BoG level at base, then you do not have the capacity to actually read.
This entire issue arises from that. I understand his Base level was not just above SS3, but equal to his Super Saiyan God level instead. My argument is that changed. Based on every single fight outside one or two in Super. Your argument is that he is using secret God Ki, which was never stated. Both of our arguments are based on an interpretation of the events. Mine however has more proof than yours.
Plus your last post was assuming me for whatever reason was keep SSG form the same strength. I don't even know tbh.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaUh, but you did though.
6. [B]I never said any of the shit you just claimed I said. Stop putting words in my posts to make yourself seem more justified, you neanderthal. [/B]
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
but clearly Goku went from fighting somewhat around Beerus' level as a SSJG, to fighting just as well with him as a SSJ1.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
5. "He punched apart the combination of all the power he could use as a SS and Beerus' power in base form in BoG. His base form was God level or became it."Am, I misreading this quote, or did you just blatantly agree with me, and then call me an idiot for stating the thing you agree with in the first place? 😕
And your entire argument is that he can only amp on top of that. I understand you're only trying to make him out to be above SS3, but your argument has indirectly flowed into showing him equal to BoG SSG multiple times, both in base, and in SS1. And considering you're arguing that he can amp on top of that, the implications of your argument mean that he can amp many times over his initial Super Saiyan God form. I really don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand.
The first sentence in your next paragraph literally says this:
"As a matter of fact, I believe that base Goku from RoF was on a level approaching his SSJG form from BoG's. His SSJG form would conversely be MUCH stronger. I deduced this belief from a variety of facts, statements, and feats from the series."
And your whole argument is that he can amp on top of this hundreds of times. I understand this isn't your intention, which I will address next point, but you have to understand what you're actually saying. You are really not making your case very good to say the least. Get that rage out of your eyes and actually think about this.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaI never said you said 4th Form Frieza was 20 times more powerful. This isn't hard.
As a matter of fact, I believe that base Goku from RoF was on a level approaching his SSJG form from BoG's. His SSJG form would conversely be MUCH stronger. I deduced this belief from a variety of facts, statements, and feats from the series. Do I think 4th Form Frieza was 20X more powerful than SSJG BoG's Goku? Uh, no, and I never even implied that to be the case. You're making shit up. Do I believe Golden Frieza from RoF was VASTLY stronger than BoG's SSJG Goku? [B]IN FACT, I KNOW THAT TO BE THE CASE. As Galan pointed out, it was stated by Whis that SSJB was a 10X boost to SSJG. RoF Goku in base form was VASTLY stronger than his BoG's SSJ3 counterpart, and approaching his n00b SSJG level from BoG's.THEREFOR: Golden Frieza >= SSJB Goku = RoF SSJG Goku x10 >>>>> RoF base Goku > RoF 4th form Frieza = RoF 1st form Frieza x226 > SSJ1 RoF Gohan[/B]
Your larger text literally agrees with everything I've been saying too. And then you argue against it.
Look. think about your words, and actually read what I'm saying. You're saying I'm putting words in your mouth when you literally agree... in the same post.
If base Goku = SSG from BoG, and his multipliers are taken into effect, that means he is at least 1000 times stronger in Blue Form. You are saying this outright, but yet still disagreeing. Pick a stance. I don't know how to make this any clearer.
And to just say it just to say it. RoF 4th Form Frieza would be equal or lesser than RoF Base Goku who you admitted was around BoG Super Saiyan God form.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaWhat is it you're not understanding? You're disagreeing with me and then repeating the same thing in the next sentence. You're as wildly inconsistent as Goku is. And to top it all off, you're getting mad and calling names just because you don't understand the point. I will try to explain it at the end... again.
What is it that you're not understanding here? You're literally arguing against facts, with statements like, "I don't think that's true". Just like with flat-Earth'ers, not believing in FACTS doesn't make them untrue, lmfao.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaI never said you're the idiot. You gotta calm down in debates though. I have no idea why you're raging when I'm being very civil. Read what I'm actually saying instead of what you think I am.
7. What you're saying makes no sense. Why are you suggesting that Gohan is still relevant to a serious Goku? Even if Goku couldn't use godly ki in his other forms, and even if he was still Gohan level in SSJ1, Goku still has about 5 forms above Gohan. Gohan is NOWHERE NEAR THE LEVEL OF GOKU. Just because Goku decided to have a little spar with his son to play around and toy with him a bit, doesn't mean that Gohan is somehow on par with Goku, lmfao.Nothing you have claimed makes any difference to my argument. You're just denying it, and acting like you're right, and I'm somehow the idiot, lol. 👇
That being said, I didn't say Gohan was as powerful as Goku's other forms... I don't even know how you got to that point. I said Gohan was giving Goku a good fight in an equal form when their power levels would have to be around the same in base. I never said Gohan could compete with Goku in a higher form... I don't even know how that thought entered your mind. I said Gohan gave Goku a decent fight is all. Goku was 11 thousand times stronger than him in base. And all Goku has been doing is training.
I'm pointing out how wildly inconsistent Super has been. I'm reinforcing why things like this don't make sense.
Originally posted by SSJGGogetaYou really should read them, but if you don't, that's fine too. It wasn't directed at you anyway.
Stopped reading. 👇
I don't know why you think just because someone IYO said something stupid, that they can't have merit somewhere else though. If you'd actually read the post, you'd find that at the minimum DBS scales into ridiculousness., and at the maximum, or following what Galan said, it scales into pure chaos.
Which was another of my points. DBS scales retardedly enough. It doesn't exactly need to scale off of SSG being the base to beat GT. Which is what you want, no? To beat GT?
If SSG was the base level in Super, it gets even worse. It just hasn't been written near consistent enough for that to be the case. It's really not that hard to admit.
Originally posted by One Big Mob****ed up here. Wrote post too fast, and never reread.
I'll use Galan's post as a higher point now. No power levels though. He said SSG could be 50 times SS3, and Blue could be ten times as powerful as Red. I will also make UI 4 times as powerful as SSBKKx20. I will still keep MUI twice as powerful though, even though that also seems to be a double. I will still however be doubling everything, and keeping the same power increases.What this would look like is
SS3 = 400 times base
SSG = 20 000 times base/50 SS3
SSB = 200 000 times base/500 SS3/10 SSG
SSBKKx20 = 4 million times base/10 000 SS3/1000 SSG
Ultra Instinct = 16 million times base/40 000 SS3/4000 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 32 million times base/80 000 SS3/8000 SSG
I didn't screw up the second part I think though so it doesn't make a difference, but yeah. Took one glance at this and caught it... way too late. I started eating pie on this post is all I can say to excuse myself. Also I meant to say MUI seems like a quad amp too, but I'd keep it double just because.
Should be off the top of my head
SS3 = 400 times base
SSG = 20 000 times base/50 SS3
SSB = 200 000 times base/500 SS3/10 SSG
SSBKKx20 = 4 million times base/10 000 SS3/200 SSG
Ultra Instinct = 16 million times base/40 000 SS3/800 SSG
Mastered Ultra Instinct = 32 million times base/80 000 SS3/1600 SSG
I screwed up the multipliers in the first post too. I'll go through that tomorrow. 😂
Also I probably could have went more in depth with these, but it turned out easier than I thought for both posts, and didn't want to push it. Turned out pretty basic and simple. It wouldn't be too hard to fit characters in here if I wanted.
