TLJ Kylo and Rey vs. TPM Qui-Gon and Kenobi

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Yes, absolutely. Lucas himself in his screenplay said Maul seemed to be winning and Obi Wan was growing tired.

There is nothing to suggest Obi Wan was better, the complete opposite in fact. Even when he caught Maul off guard with his initial outburst Maul was still able to weather it fairly well

Then why did Maul used the Force Push? If he was having the upper hand using such a desperate maneuver was unnecessary. Not even against Qui Gon did he use the force.

Sorry, but feats speak for themselves. Obi Wan was handling Maul pretty well, until this last one decided to force push him.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Which means it wasn't Obi's skill that granted him the win, it was circumstance. As you yourself admit that he wouldn't have beaten Maul if it had only been the two of them with only 1 lightsaber each.

And yes, in an open arena straight one on one fight, Maul would have killed Obi Wan.

No, it means Maul was fool enough and slow enough to block Obi Wan's attack.

Obi Wan wins, period.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Given he already disarmed Obi-Wan Before Obi-Wan fell down the pit, the answer to your question would be an obvious YES.

And btw, that was the 2nd time Maul sent Obi-Wan flying disarming him. The first time Qui-Gon was there to save his skin. The 2nd time Qui-Gons Saber saved him.

Both times he was saber in hands and not countering the force pushes.

Even without the saber, Obi Wan would then be forced to use his force abilities, which for a padawan are incredibly sharp (Else he wouldn't have been able to grab Qui Gon's saber).

I bet he would have recovered his saber and sliced Maul in half just the same.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Then why did Maul used the Force Push? If he was having the upper hand using such a desperate maneuver was unnecessary. Not even against Qui Gon did he use the force.

Sorry, but feats speak for themselves. Obi Wan was handling Maul pretty well, until this last one decided to force push him.

What feats? The guy who wrote the screenplay and directed the movie said Maul was winning. He said Obi Wan was wearing down, and Maul was winning.

Ben was doing well, yes, but he was in no way winning. He was losing, and that was said by Lucas himself. Your interpretation of the movie is simply that, your interpretation. The actual script literally says "JOSH UNDERSCORE ALEXANDER is wrong and his interpretation is incorrect."
I could disagree with you on the interpretation of the movie, but others have already. What matters is we have deeper context than fancy moves on screen that said what the others have already stated.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
To automatically win? Why the **** wouldn't he use the force push when it gives him an immense upper hand? He didn't have Obi Wan in such an advantageous position before hand, helped out by him parrying the shit out of Obi Wan.

What feats? The guy who wrote the screenplay and directed the movie said Maul was winning. He said Obi Wan was wearing down, and Maul was winning.

Ben was doing well, yes, but he was in no way winning. He was losing, and that was said by Lucas himself. Your interpretation of the movie is simply that, your interpretation. The actual script literally says "JOSH UNDERSCORE ALEXANDER is wrong and his interpretation is incorrect."
I could disagree with you on the interpretation of the movie, but others have already. What matters is we have deeper context than fancy moves on screen that said what the others have already stated.

No, it was an act of desperation and treachery. Just like Sidious' force lightnings against Yoda and Windu.

Obi Wan broke his saber and was having him handled, therefore Maul had no choice but to take treacherous measures.

So what? The movie didn't portray that! The movie portrayed Maul force pushing Obi Wan! In no way does that put him in the winning side.

Okay, even if you are right and Kenobi was losing the fight!

The Facts are these:

Obi Wan retrieved Qui Gon's weapon and murdered him! Maul was too stupid and too slow to block the attack!

Point is, Padawan Obi Wan was smarter and proved in the end to be the better fighter!

No matter which script you bring, there is nothing that can rebuke that!

In the end Obi Wan will always win 😂

Even if "Maul was having the upper hand", Maul failed! He lowered his guard and was unable to block Padawan Obi Wan maneuver!

Obi Wan was smart enough and prepared enough to turned the tables on the Sith! That's why he is the better fighter!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No, it was an act of desperation and treachery. Just like Sidious' force lightnings against Yoda and Windu.

Obi Wan broke his saber and was having him handled, therefore Maul had no choice but to take treacherous measures.

So what? The movie didn't portray that! The movie portrayed Maul force pushing Obi Wan! In no way does that put him in the winning side.

[B] Okay, even if you are right and Kenobi was losing the fight!

The Facts are these:

Obi Wan retrieved Qui Gon's weapon and murdered him! Maul was too stupid and too slow to block the attack!

Point is, Padawan Obi Wan was smarter and proved in the end to be the better fighter!

No matter which script you bring, there is nothing that can rebuke that! [/B]

Maul in the movie lifted Obi-Wan in the air just from pushing after he blocked his saber, then force pushed him. In the novel, he was pushed off balance from the force of Maul's blows. Either way, he wasn't doing very well.

The movie didn't go into the specifics of what the characters were feeling at the time. Lucas outright wanted Obi-Wan to be getting tired.

I never said Maul didn't lose the fight. That would be as dishonest of me as you arguing against the script. This is what you asked:

"Now let me ask you something. If that pit wouldn't have been there, would Maul have defeated Obi Wan?"

Which I answered. We were given everything but it happening to conclude that Maul was going to win. Now you're backtracking because you didn't like the answer.

"It doesn't matter if Maul would have won because Obi-Wan did"

Well then don't ask the question. The fact remains that Maul was winning even with one blade, and Obi-Wan was wearing out. Maul would have won had the pit not been there. Maul was better than Kenobi, but Maul was overconfident and let his guard completely down. Kenobi could not have done that without being in that exact same position which means without the pit, he wouldn't have cut Maul in half.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No, it means Maul was fool enough and slow enough to block Obi Wan's attack.

Obi Wan wins, period.

Yes Obi Wan won, by being lucky and making good use of circumstance and his environment. It most definitely wasn't because of his "fighting style" as you so claimed. Give it up Josh, you're just making yourself look stupider by the minute.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Kenobi could not have done that without being in that exact same position which means without the pit, he wouldn't have cut Maul in half.

Without the pit, and without Qui-Gons Saber 👆

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Then why did Maul used the Force Push? If he was having the upper hand using such a desperate maneuver was unnecessary.

Force push is just a standard f***ing move. What is wrong with you?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not even against Qui Gon did he use the force.

He never disarmed Qui-Gon with a kick either. Qui-Gon never got left behind in the 3 way fight either.

Go figure. Its almost as if even Qui-Gon was a little better than Obi-Wan in TPM.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
"Desperation"
It was stated in the novel that Obi-Wan put everything he had into the sequence that cut Maul's lightsaber because his strength was waning. It was even called a "final assault", which Maul came away from easily, knocked him off balance, and pushed him down. Had he not done so, he likely would have killed Obi-Wan because Maul was still fresh and Obi-Wan quickly was wearing down.
It wasn't desperation. It was to simply win easily. It's not a boxing match, it's a fight to the death. And Maul was winning at that point in time.

Maul in the movie lifted Obi-Wan in the air just from pushing after he blocked his saber, then force pushed him. In the novel, he was pushed off balance from the force of Maul's blows. Either way, he wasn't doing very well.

The movie didn't go into the specifics of what the characters were feeling at the time. Lucas outright wanted Obi-Wan to be getting tired.

I never said Maul didn't lose the fight. That would be as dishonest of me as you arguing against the script. This is what you asked:

"Now let me ask you something. If that pit wouldn't have been there, would Maul have defeated Obi Wan?"

Which I answered. We were given everything but it happening to conclude that Maul was going to win. Now you're backtracking because you didn't like the answer.

"It doesn't matter if Maul would have won because Obi-Wan did"

Well then don't ask the question. The fact remains that Maul was winning even with one blade, and Obi-Wan was wearing out. Maul would have won had the pit not been there. Maul was better than Kenobi, but Maul was overconfident and let his guard completely down. Kenobi could not have done that without being in that exact same position which means without the pit, he wouldn't have cut Maul in half.

This is the Movie Versus Forum, we follow movie feats! The movie portrayed Maul getting his blade sliced while being toed by a Padawan!

The movie portrayed Maul Force Pushing Kenobi! In no way does that make him look like being on top! It just proves that Kenobi never expected the force push!

Once again, we are debating screen feats here. Screen feats showed a surprised Maul getting toed by a padawan, to which he reacted by force pushing instead of honestly saber dueling!

Maul wasn't portrayed as superior in no way.

And again, in the end Maul proved to be unprepared for Obi Wan's maneuver, which automatically makes him a weaker fighter!

Obi Wan ended being superior

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes Obi Wan won, by being lucky and making good use of circumstance and his environment. It most definitely wasn't because of his "fighting style" as you so claimed. Give it up Josh, you're just making yourself look stupider by the minute.

Maul had the terrain advantage! Obi Wan jumped like 3 meters high over Maul's head whilst Maul just stared!

Maul had enough time to react! Yet he didn't!

Maul wasn't prepared nor was ready.

Conclusion: Maul wasn't better.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Force push is just a standard f***ing move. What is wrong with you?

He never disarmed Qui-Gon with a kick either. Qui-Gon never got left behind in the 3 way fight either.

Go figure. Its almost as if even Qui-Gon was a little better than Obi-Wan in TPM.

What is wrong with you! It's obvious that if Maul was as superior as you claim him to be, such a move would be unnecessary! As it was with Qui Gon, since Maul knew he had the adv.

Qui Gon as good as he was, he had the disadvantage in the pit. The close terrain gave Maul the advantage over Qui Gon's fighting style, and this is a known thing.

Maul was surprised by Obi Wan's aggressive and powerful strikes, therefore he decided to finish the fight by throwing him down the pit! Maul never had an advantage over Kenobi saberwise!

You can argue that forcewise Maul is better, but in skills with the Saber Obi Wan proved superior!

I could agree that Maul's force abilities are above Padawan Kenobi's! But in skills with the saber! Please!

Maul got sliced in half by a Padawan! Kenobi clearly is better skilled with the saber!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
This is the Movie Versus Forum, we follow movie feats! The movie portrayed Maul getting his blade sliced while being toed by a Padawan!

The movie portrayed Maul Force Pushing Kenobi! In no way does that make him look like being on top! It just proves that Kenobi never expected the force push!

Once again, we are debating screen feats here. Screen feats showed a surprised Maul getting toed by a padawan, to which he reacted by force pushing instead of honestly saber dueling!

Maul wasn't portrayed as superior in no way.

And again, [B] in the end Maul proved to be unprepared for Obi Wan's maneuver, which automatically makes him a weaker fighter!

Obi Wan ended being superior

Maul had the terrain advantage! Obi Wan jumped like 3 meters high over Maul's head whilst Maul just stared!

Maul had enough time to react! Yet he didn't!

Maul wasn't prepared nor was ready.

Conclusion: Maul wasn't better. [/B]

Your argument is literally you denying proof because the narrator didn't state the inner dialogue and context of what was really going on. You are outright saying proof doesn't count because the title of this forum. Ignorance. The movie was adapted by the guy who wrote the script. Maul was winning in his mind and Obi Wan was growing tired. Had Maul been seperated from Qui Gon a second before killing him, according to you we would have had no idea who would win. So what we do is look at sources to figure out what was going on since the movie can't accurately display how characters feel inside. I'm not bringing out The Clone Wars or anything (though I believe there is a quote from Obi Wan that basically says he got lucky), I am quoting something written by Lucas himself, and something expanding on the movie. Things directly relating to what happened in the movie.

And no, if we go by the movie purely, Maul landed as much attacks directly. Obi-Wan threw 14-20ish purely offensive attacks. Maul threw a minimum of 28 purely offensive attacks. The last offensive attack from Kenobi had him almost lifted up in the air from Maul's strength and then getting force pushed. Not exactly losing was Maul. And it's not the force push that's important though it is well within his capabilities so I don't know why it's considered cheating, it's that Obi-Wan got thrown off balance enough to allow it and to do a little panic breath before the push.

Not to mention you again backtracked on what you previously said. You asked what would happen without the pit, and yet you keep going to a move that never would have happened without the pit. It is not a normal move in Kenobi's moveset and has never happened before or since. And it's been explained why it happened. Maul was overconfident and didn't expect it. Maul had time to raise defenses but just stood there with his hands at his side because he didn't try. It'd be like arguing that Luke could beat Palpatine because Palpatine didn't even try to stop his lightsaber and Vader had to save him. It was an outlier feat that would never happen in a neutral setting. It is not relevant to a fight.

If your next post is you just repeating yourself which causes me to repeat myself, I'm done. You are bringing up no points and freely admitting you're ignoring evidence, while backtracking.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I could agree that Maul's force abilities are above Padawan Kenobi's! But in skills with the saber! Please!

Maul got sliced in half by a Padawan! Kenobi clearly is better skilled with the saber!

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Just because it's a movie vs doesn't mean we ignore things that expand on the story beyond what you can portray in the movie. In the script written by the director and writer of the movie, it stated Maul was winning and Obi Wan was growing tired. In the movie Maul parried him hard enough to throw him completely off balance, why we might ask? Because the novel said that was his (Ben) final attack, and both the Novel and Script said Obi Wan was growing tired.

Your argument is literally you denying proof because the narrator didn't state the inner dialogue and context of what was really going on. You are outright saying proof doesn't count because the title of this forum. Ignorance. The movie was adapted by the guy who wrote the script. Maul was winning in his mind and Obi Wan was growing tired. Had Maul been seperated from Qui Gon a second before killing him, according to you we would have had no idea who would win. So what we do is look at sources to figure out what was going on since the movie can't accurately display how characters feel inside. I'm not bringing out The Clone Wars or anything (though I believe there is a quote from Obi Wan that basically says he got lucky), I am quoting something written by Lucas himself, and something expanding on the movie. Things directly relating to what happened in the movie.

And no, if we go by the movie purely, Maul landed as much attacks directly. Obi-Wan threw 14-20ish purely offensive attacks. Maul threw a minimum of 28 purely offensive attacks. The last offensive attack from Kenobi had him almost lifted up in the air from Maul's strength and then getting force pushed. Not exactly losing was Maul. And it's not the force push that's important though it is well within his capabilities so I don't know why it's considered cheating, it's that Obi-Wan got thrown off balance enough to allow it and to do a little panic breath before the push.

Not to mention you again backtracked on what you previously said. You asked what would happen without the pit, and yet you keep going to a move that never would have happened without the pit. It is not a normal move in Kenobi's moveset and has never happened before or since. And it's been explained why it happened. Maul was overconfident and didn't expect it. Maul had time to raise defenses but just stood there with his hands at his side because he didn't try. It'd be like arguing that Luke could beat Palpatine because Palpatine didn't even try to stop his lightsaber and Vader had to save him. It was an outlier feat that would never happen in a neutral setting. It is not relevant to a fight.

If your next post is you just repeating yourself which causes me to repeat myself, I'm done. You are bringing up no points and freely admitting you're ignoring evidence, while backtracking.

If the feats contradict the script it's useless to bring it here! The feats portrayed a broken saber Maul force pushing a Padawan.

In no way is that having an edge!

1000x again, Obi Wan sliced Maul in half therefore he is the better duelist.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Go to the Star Wars forum and make this argument if you feel so confident in it. It is afterall purely a Star Wars forum which is where your argument stems from. Even make the thread movies only.

No need.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If the feats contradict the script it's useless to bring it here! The feats portrayed a broken saber Maul force pushing a Padawan.

In no way is that having an edge!

1000x again, Obi Wan sliced Maul in half therefore he is the better duelist.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
Alright you're just a troll. My mistake

Am not the one trying to contradict the feats here.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I could agree that Maul's force abilities are above Padawan Kenobi's! But in skills with the saber! Please!

Maul got sliced in half by a Padawan! Kenobi clearly is better skilled with the saber!

Jeeze, calm down dude. No need for a meltdown. Yes, Kenobi won but it was definitely not due to his style as you so claimed.