The rationalization of politics

Originally posted by lazybones
Eh, they still haven't killed people. And they aren't racist, at least. So on those two facts alone, they hold at least a small high ground. But I'd agree that both factions are representative of extreme ideologies that aren't at all compatible with liberal democracy. In that sense, they both should be condemned, but the severity of what they have done should be kept in mind.

Originally posted by Digi
Good to see you agree, in part at least. I feel like you whiffed pretty hard on acknowledging the "attacks ideas, not people" part of my post. But at this point I'll take what I can get on this board.

Originally posted by Robtard
Fair enough, my bad there. Mean that with sincerity. Seemed for a second you were equalizing both like Surtur has done and continues to do.

Why apologize? His point is still ****ing stupid. "To be fair, Anti-Fa silences speakers more often than Neo-Nazis murder people." Who ****ing cares? One group shouts people down, and the other group kills people.

What is the Diff between Anti-fa and Neo-Nazis?

Both are Leftist Fascists.

Originally posted by Digi
Can't really speak to anti-semitism. But more generally, I do have an issue with political groupings as a whole, how imprecise they are, and how they promote attacks on individuals and/or the group itself instead of ideas.

I mean, think about the umbrella that is "liberal" or "conservative." Think about how many different demographics fall under each. Should a Texas rancher and Wall Street business mogul be described using the same terminology? Should an anti-war protesting hippie and a middle class urban school teacher? And could you craft a policy platform to please them both? Possibly, but only if they both idealize the party affiliation over their actual interests. Hundreds of examples like that could be found.

I'm of the debate philosophy that you pull zero punches, but separate argument from individual and attack only the idea. But when it comes to identity politics specifically, it's hard to find anyone who doesn't conflate certain ideas with their self-image. So an attack on the former is an attack on the latter. Cue rants and rage, and watch as it spirals and compounds on itself.

It's like trying to use the term millenial unironically to describe anything. By most definitions, it includes kids waiting to have their first legal drink, and early 30-somethings who could easily be on their 10th job, 3rd kid, 2nd mortgage, etc. Tell me that sh*t is one demographic with a straight face. It isn't; it's just a marketing buzzword, but we eat it up, attack it or embrace it to suit our needs.

So it's not that I'm espousing a centrist view on whatever topic. But yeah, f*** political labels and the way they dumb down our national discussion of nearly anything.

So many Gays are Fascists these days.

Such a sad thing for a people that are trying to change the meaning of a word that just means Happy.

And every body knows that leftists are NEVER HAPPY!

Originally posted by lazybones
Eh, they still haven't killed people. And they aren't racist, at least. So on those two facts alone, they hold at least a small high ground. But I'd agree that both factions are representative of extreme ideologies that aren't at all compatible with liberal democracy. In that sense, they both should be condemned, but the severity of what they have done should be kept in mind.

And the problem is little weasels whine whenever they are brought up here lol. Anytime they are mentioned it is assumed the person is saying "they are 100% equal to murderous nazis".

It's bullshit. These people are terrorists. There is no debate there whatsoever.

If people wanna debate where on the scale of terrorism they fit? That is fine. But throwing little hissy fits whenever they are brought up? That's bullshit. And weasels here have tried to paint it as if the worst thing these people do is throw smoke bombs.

Not that you specifically did it, but people were legit seeming to argue with labeling these people terrorists. Let that sink in; violence is being used for political purposes. It's not terrorism though, because nazis. Antifa hasn't killed anyone. Oh sure, they've bashed people over the skull with metal bike locks, wine bottles, chucked bricks at peoples heads. But they aren't murderous nazis, so shhh. Granted if a brick had connected with someones head...well, I guess we just need to wait until the day they finally do kill someone before we can talk about them.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Why apologize? His point is still ****ing stupid. "To be fair, Anti-Fa silences speakers more often than Neo-Nazis murder people." Who ****ing cares? One group shouts people down, and the other group kills people.

but their fee-fees get hurt. that's just as bad as mass murder when you stop thinking about it

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm not equalizing murder with vandalism and non-lethal violent action, the alt-right has a higher kill-count but I'm saying that given Antifa's greater propensity for largescale political violence and mobbing in general it's not fair to compare the two along only one metric. Due to antifa's largescale political violence political speech on college campuses has become noticeably more obstructed due to concerns of violent mobs for even relatively moderate speakers like Ben Shapiro who aren't even advocating for racism or fascism, which has lead to these events being obstructed through either violent destruction, the heckler's veto, the onus placed upon organizations to raise an inordinate amount of money for security, etc.

One certainly has a higher killcount, but the other has a higher incidence of politically motivated violence and fear tactics as well as a wider spread effect in obstructing political dialogue.

I don't think it's fair to declare one side as far and away worse than the other based on analysis of a single variable.

I have not once seen anyone on this forum say "vandalism and murder are equally bad". This "equalization" thing is brought up anytime anyone mentions Antifa. It truly does seem like some would prefer these things not be mentioned until they rack up an actual body count.

This mystifies me to no end. We see violence used. We see members saying fear is a tactic they also use. That's terrorism and I'm curious why people think if you ignore terrorists they will go away. I'm curious why they think if you ignore them they will not eventually up their game.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
but their fee-fees get hurt. that's just as bad as mass murder when you stop thinking about it

Why is it anytime anything negative about Antifa is pointed out you automatically assume it is being said they are 100% equal to murderous neo nazis?

The bar we set should not be "they aren't murderous nazis". Are they terrorists, yes or no?

Yeah the "equalization" thing is a strawman because I'm not comparing an act of murder to an act of violence or vandalism. I'm comparing a few acts of murder to much more frequent and mob acts of obstruction violence and vandalism that have a heavier impact on the overall culture and political dialogue.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Why apologize? His point is still ****ing stupid. "To be fair, Anti-Fa silences speakers more often than Neo-Nazis murder people." Who ****ing cares? One group shouts people down, and the other group kills people.

Because I accused him of another greater stupidity which he didn't commit, which is Surt's baby.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yeah the "equalization" thing is a strawman because I'm not comparing an act of murder to an act of violence or vandalism. I'm comparing a few acts of murder to much more frequent and mob acts of obstruction violence and vandalism that have a heavier impact on the overall culture and political dialogue.

Bingo. It's never just about one lone act with Antifa. If they continue to get dismissed because they aren't as bad as murderous nazis...they're just gonna get more brazen.

And I can all but guarantee you if tomorrow Antifa straight up murdered someone it would be deflected by saying they haven't killed as many people as nazis have.

Originally posted by Surtur
Bingo. It's never just about one lone act with Antifa. If they continue to get dismissed because they aren't as bad as murderous nazis...they're just gonna get more brazen.

And I can all but guarantee you if tomorrow Antifa straight up murdered someone it would be deflected by saying they haven't killed as many people as nazis have.

So a pretend scenario to top off the actual deflection and equalization tactics you've used. Big winner.

Originally posted by Robtard
So a pretend scenario to top off the actual deflection and equalization tactics you've used. Big winner.

But I never said murder was equal to what Antifa has done. It doesn't mean they aren't terrorists.

As for my hypothetical, it's just an opinion. Do you deny you would pull that tactic?

You've tried since the Charlotsville incident/thread to equalize the Alt-Right (Nazis) with Antifa, sport.

Watch me not play along with your little pretend games. Watch and seethe.

Originally posted by Robtard
You've tried since the Charlotsville incident/thread to equalize the Alt-Right (Nazis) with Antifa, sport.

Watch me not play along with your little pretend games. Watch and seethe.

Never said murder was equivalent. And I say again: they are terrorists.

And nope, I know how you'd react, was just curious if you'd admit it.

Originally posted by Robtard
You've tried since the Charlotsville incident/thread to equalize the Alt-Right (Nazis) with Antifa, sport.

Watch me not play along with your little pretend games. Watch and seethe.

it got so bad that when i made a seperate thread about heather heyer (so we could actually maybe be allowed to discuss her murder sans-phaggotry) they immediately and dutifully derailed that thread. surt was late for the party but he did his duty. bashar remembers.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=645069&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
it got so bad that when i made a seperate thread about heather heyer (so we could actually maybe be allowed to discuss her murder sans-phaggotry) they immediately and dutifully derailed that thread. surt was late for the party but he did his duty. bashar remembers.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=645069&pagenumber=1

^Love seeing you triggered in that thread. And how even now it triggers you.

Btw are antifa terrorists? Yay or nay?

Hold up.... I seem to remember you were the one who did the original comparative there Surt. In the first thread, the one about Dreadlock girl, you cracked it with everyone because we did not agree that a near 300 pound Neo Nazi punching a girl less than a third of his size to the ground was good. You argued for several dozen pages that because she was Antifa it was alright.

The very next time I saw the comparative being made was when a Neo Nazi was trying to mow people down with his car, killing one woman. Now, neither person there had anything to do with Antifa, and yet the very first thing that gets mentined by you is Antifa. That time YOU made the comparative, and you pulled out out of nowhere for no reason other than to continue your grievance.

Now, I'm not going to go quote hunting through utterly ancient threads, I'm bedridden and sick and not up to that sort of thing anymore... but you get my point. I don't think anybody cares that you hate Antifa. What matters is that your hatred seems to spurn you into spinning absolute lies and exaggerations on top of legitimate wrongs they may do, and then you bring them up in places where mentioning them is completely unwanted, unwarranted and unneeded.