Snoke and the First Order

Started by Zenwolf3 pages
Zenwolf Senior Member

Or the novel is trying to salvage TLJ movie disaster..

DarthPlaguis12 Restricted

How is it a movie disaster...it made over a billion dollars

Zenwolf Senior Member

As a stand-alone it’s fine. But it’s not.

DarthPlaguis12 Restricted

Not what I asked, asked how it was a disaster

DarthSkywalker0 The Insane Jedi Master
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Not what I asked, asked how it was a disaster

The film sucked.

Zenwolf Senior Member
Originally posted by DarthPlaguis12
Not what I asked, asked how it was a disaster

Maybe too strong a word, but the movie ignores practically everything TFA set. The whole casino planet was pointless. The romance between Rose and Finn just came from nowhere. There’s more but I’m at work atm.

There isn’t a bridge really between TFA and TLJ.

Zentrex Hi!

Originally posted by The Merchant
I think the dark things could simply be the navigation of the UR itself. Extremely dangerous even if mapped out.

Maybe. It's kind of a strange way to talk about controlled navigation, but the visual dictionary did say that it was the "hyperspace blaze trails" which saved them. hm. I mean if the great powers and knowledge of Snoke which Palpatine was after and emerged from the origins of the force are how to navigate confusing space, then that would be a great let-down. I sincerly hope it's something new and interesting.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That's some mighty good hype for Snoke:
-> Was able to do shit the imperialmiltary could not with his power
-> Has force knowledge Palps wanted

Well, there's two things about that:
One is that he could be in a weakened state. Maybe he has the knowledge/potential for power, but is currently in a state which prohibits him from being as powerful as he can be.
Another thing is that whatever power he has, it may just be something lame. I mean, as The Merchant mentioned, it's possible that Snoke just helped with Navigation, and maybe Palpatine was using Snoke's knowledge as a means to an end. You know, something he could use to gain access to the world between worlds or something, so he can ACTUALLY get what he wants. And we've already seen Snoke get killed by Kylo the way he did, and he didn't show anything TOO bizzare before his death, no show of his "unlimited resources", so who knows what his power really is.
Snoke was meant to have "immense power" since his first conception, so who knows at this point. He served the purpose he had in the story.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ 👆

It was Snoke's knowledge/power that saved the First Order from being obliterated by the "terrors" in the Unknown Regions... But now he's dead. What a twist it would be if some of those terrors started to return upon sensing his death. mmm


They wouldn't do that...not in the movies anyway.

Originally posted by Galan007
The novel also states that Snoke essentially masterminded Luke's downfall, just to remove him from play:

See, now THAT is a hint of Snoke's power. I'm starting to get a psionic vibe from him. He seems to be very interested in manipulating people. He messed with kylo's mind, he messed with Rey's mind, and now we see Luke was the way he was because Snoke had messed with him. And of course, the mind probe. Snoke taught that to Kylo.
That's actually a satisfying way to show why Skywalker would pull a weapon on a sleeping child. That was...
unexpected.
But I still want to know what his "agenda" which Serkis kept mentioning was. What is Snoke's "design"? Is that stated in the book?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Hold up, both
-> Skywalker dying and
-> Ben Solo triumphing

came true.

Did Snoke plan on dying?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=jEbl-umsFOM
Skywalker came to Ach-to to die, but never did because he always had that little jedi inside himself who could never bring himself about to destroying the sacred texts or kill himself. Snoke failed in that regard. Also he did not want Ben triumphing. He wanted Ben dead after Luke was dead. He was simply using en to kill Luke. He failed in that regard as well. And he certainly didn't plan to die.

Originally posted by Galan007
The novel certainly leaves that open to interpretation, imo.

Tbh, Snoke's 'death'(still not entirely convinced that he's perma-dead, tbh) may have even been his way of "completing" Kylo's training, as he mentioned at the end of TFA. After all, the recent novelization also made it abundantly clear that Snoke's TP mastery was vastly superior to Kylo's:

...So the notion that Kylo could truly hide something from Snoke does seem a bit...inconsistent. /shrug


Snoke's reading of Kylo's intentions was precise. He just didn't look any further. Kylo felt that he wanted power and that Snoke was the only thing standing in his way, making him his "true" enemy. He even turned both lightsabers just so that his plan of killing Snoke would mirror his plan for killing Rey. So really, Kylo just outsmarted him.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Or the novel is trying to salvage TLJ movie disaster..

It wasn't that bad in most people's opinions, so it would make sense from a financial perspective to NOT go against the movie. Some people think that the movie was bad, but the new canon really isn't for them, aside from the comics and some of the other new expanded universe stuff anyway.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Maybe too strong a word, but the movie ignores practically everything TFA set. The whole casino planet was pointless. The romance between Rose and Finn just came from nowhere. There’s more but I’m at work atm.

There isn’t a bridge really between TFA and TLJ.


The creation of TLJ started in the middle of the creation of TFA, so there is a little bit of inconsistency in the plot and story, and on top of that, there was not a lot of talking between the directors, BUT the character arcs did remain fairly consistent, and the idea for TLJ was always clear in Rian Johnson's mind and did not undergo ANY script changes even ONCE.
Rey's arc of leaving her past behind and going forth continues. Ren's arc of becoming independant and growing up continues. Finn's arc of being a runaway with no commitment continues. Poe's arc with having issues with leadership and orders continues. Rose kind of comes out of nowhere, and her romance is even more forced, but she represents a side of Finn.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Zentrex
But I still want to know what his "agenda" which Serkis kept mentioning was. What is Snoke's "design"? Is that stated in the book?
Snoke's 'agenda' was as follows:
-Ben's seduction to the dark side.
-Luke's downfall.
-The death of all Jedi(and with them, the spark of hope they carried.)
-The First Order's rise to complete galactic domination.

*No other machinations were referenced. That's it.

Originally posted by Zentrex
Snoke's reading of Kylo's intentions was precise.
If we're assuming that Snoke didn't intend to die, then his "reading of Kylo's intentions" was literally the exact opposite of precise.

At that point, Kylo's only intent was to kill Snoke and have Rey join him. Rotating his own lightsaber in unison with Rey's doesn't change his underlying intention. If Snoke, with his vastly superior TP, couldn't sense that, he deserved to die in such a comical manner, tbh.

Zentrex Hi!

Originally posted by Galan007
Snoke's 'agenda' was as follows:
-Ben's seduction to the dark side.
-Luke's downfall.
-The death of all Jedi(and with them, the spark of hope they carried.)
-The First Order's rise to complete galactic domination.

*No other machinations were referenced. That's it.

Why would he want that though? He wanted to seduce Ben TO kill Luke, and once he learned that Luke was not the source of light he'd been sensing, he wanted to kill Rey. Really he just wanted to end the jedi. And I don't know why. He said that the spark of hope they carried makes them "dangerous" but how? If it's because they can destroy the first Order, then why doesn't he just start a new jedi order and get them all on his side? That seems like a much simpler solution to me, honestly.
And I don't know why he cares so much about the First Order.

If we're assuming that Snoke didn't intend to die, then his "reading of Kylo's intentions" was literally the exact opposite of precise.

At that point, Kylo's only intent was to kill Snoke and have Rey join him. Rotating his own lightsaber in unison with Rey's doesn't change his underlying intention. If Snoke, with his vastly superior TP, couldn't sense that, he deserved to die in such a comical manner, tbh.

He looked at the surface of what Kylo felt in that moment. The want to kill the one standing in his way. If he'd searched deeper, he may have found something else, but he didn't.
He also sensed that Kylo was going to attempt a risk shot at killing this person by turning a lightsaber, which is what he did, but he didn't look any deeper to see who EXACTLY Kylo felt those feelings towards

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Zentrex
Why would he want that though? He wanted to seduce Ben TO kill Luke, and once he learned that Luke was not the source of light he'd been sensing, he wanted to kill Rey. Really he just wanted to end the jedi. And I don't know why. He said that the spark of hope they carried makes them "dangerous" but how? If it's because they can destroy the first Order, then why doesn't he just start a new jedi order and get them all on his side? That seems like a much simpler solution to me, honestly.
And I don't know why he cares so much about the First Order.
Because Snoke embraces the dark side FAR more than the light -- he would never associate himself with the Jedi Order just to procure followers(he has more than enough of those as-is.) However, Snoke is also a realist and knows the Jedi still represent hope to the galaxy -- if the Jedi endure, hope itself endures. Furthermore, Snoke also recognizes that where there is hope, there will always be a Resistance/Rebellion in place to oppose him... He did not want *any* opposition(regardless of how meager it may be) to exist. He wanted his rule to be supreme and unquestioned, period.

...Also keep in mind that Snoke witnessed the Empire rise and fall, so he knows full-well how potentially devastating just one well placed Jedi(and the hope he/she naturally breeds) can be.

Originally posted by Zentrex
If he'd searched deeper, he may have found something else, but he didn't.
I find it hard to believe that Snoke didn't search deeper. In both films and novels it was made abundantly clear that Snoke always searches/senses Kylo's underlying feelings.

...So if Snoke inextricably wasn't doing so in that moment(when Kylo's underlying feelings were arguably clearer than they have EVER been), and legitimately got merc'd, then he deserved that piss-poor death.

Zentrex Hi!

Originally posted by Galan007
Because Snoke embraces the dark side FAR more than the light -- he would never associate himself with the Jedi Order just to procure followers(he has more than enough of those as-is.) However, Snoke is also a realist and knows the Jedi still represent hope to the galaxy -- if the Jedi endure, hope itself endures. Furthermore, Snoke also recognizes that where there is hope, there will always be a Resistance/Rebellion in place to oppose him... He did not want *any* opposition(regardless of how meager it may be) to exist. He wanted his rule to be supreme and unquestioned, period.

...Also keep in mind that Snoke witnessed the Empire rise and fall, so he knows full-well how potentially devastating just one well placed Jedi(and the hope he/she naturally breeds) can be.

I guess. That seems kind of strange, doesn't it? Serkis said that Snoke WAS the Supreme Leader of the First Order, but he had a separate agenda. The book says that that separate agenda was to kill all jedi and light siders because they got in the way of Snoke, which I can only make out to mean the success of the First Order. Now that would mean that his separate agenda was just an extention of the agenda of the First Order.

And there is talk of how he thought a perfect balance between the dark and the light would be the most powerful and that the perfect fight about both the solely dark and solely light. I would have guessed that he had a completely separate agenda for what he wanted the state of the galaxy and the state of the force to be, but I guess not.

I find it hard to believe that Snoke didn't search deeper. In both films and novels it was made abundantly clear that Snoke always searches/senses Kylo's underlying feelings.

...So if Snoke inextricably wasn't doing so in that moment(when Kylo's underlying feelings were arguably clearer than they have EVER been), and legitimately got merc'd, then he deserved that piss-poor death.

Right, that's the point. He let his arrogance and hubris get to him. Like Caesar, or Xerxes. Which were inspirations for the Emperor, who this guy was based off of.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Zentrex
I guess. That seems kind of strange, doesn't it? Serkis said that Snoke WAS the Supreme Leader of the First Order, but he had a separate agenda. The book says that that separate agenda was to kill all jedi and light siders because they got in the way of Snoke, which I can only make out to mean the success of the First Order. Now that would mean that his separate agenda was just an extention of the agenda of the First Order.

And there is talk of how he thought a perfect balance between the dark and the light would be the most powerful and that the perfect fight about both the solely dark and solely light. I would have guessed that he had a completely separate agenda for what he wanted the state of the galaxy and the state of the force to be, but I guess not.

Remember, most of the First Order didn't even know what Snoke actually looked like -- let alone that he was a force-user. He ruled almost entirely behind-the-scenes, and allowed proxies(like General Hux) be the proverbial face of the organization.

That said, the agenda of the First Order is obliterating the New Republic, and usurping control of the galaxy -- essentially reestablishing a 'bigger and better' Empire... But much like Palpatine, Snoke's separate agenda was also to obliterate all remnants of the Jedi Order, to ensure his rule was complete and absolute with NO opposition. Snoke believed(and rightfully so) that if he destroyed all the Jedi, he effectively destroyed hope itself -- leaving any sort of 'Resistance' completely demoralized/discouraged, and easily crushed.

I'd wager that is also why Snoke would have undoubtedly killed Kylo, IF he had been able to kill Luke and Rey: Kylo represents a potential rival/threat to Snoke(obviously, lol)... And Snoke definitely wasn't a fan of those.

Zentrex Hi!

So...he's basically the poor man's Palpatine?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Indeed many of Snoke's underlying machinations parallel with Palpatine's. I think Snoke realized that even though Palpatine's stratagem wasn't 'infallible', it was pretty damn close, and ultimately gained him the galactic supremacy he'd sought for decades -- the type of supreme/iron-fisted rule over the galaxy that generations of Sith before him had incessantly lusted after, but never fully realized. Palpatine succeeded where they had failed, and Snoke wanted to succeed where Palpatine had failed.

Snoke essentially built upon the foundations Palpatine had laid for him... Heck, that's likely why he had such loathing for Luke, but such a hard-on for Vader. mmm

Unbowed Senior Member

Originally posted by Zentrex
So...he's basically the poor man's Palpatine?

No it means he casually waltzed in and hijacked the empire the Banites spent a thousand years creating because he was a stronger Force user and a better schemer. 🙂

Zentrex Hi!

He "walzed in" 25 years after the empire had fallen and the only remaining remnant was a group he considered to be unfit/unlikely rulers who were only followed by people who's follow anything, and then took another 5 years to fail while someone who's literally treated as a JOKE designed the smartest plan the First Order ever had (The creation of Starkiller Base and destruction of the Senate).

As for how much he failed, well...
He first tried to take control of the First Order when it was in its weakest state by far, though he had known of its existence since before Palpatine's death. Succeeded
He tried to use the first order to take control of the galaxy
Failed
He tried to revise history
Failed
He tried to kill the Jedi
Failed
He tried to kill Luke
Failed
He tried to seduce Ben to the dark side
Succeeded
He tried to use Ben to kill Rey
Failed
He tried to remain the supreme leader of the First Order
Failed
He tried to build the perfect Force-user
Failed

Honestly, like Galan said, he was trying to succeed where Palpatine had failed. Instead he failed where Palpatine had succeeded. Palpatine knew that people are power hungry and will try to take your position, and kept that in mind so it wouldn't happen. And it didn't. Snoke thought "oh, Palpatine failed because he didn't realize the power of sentiment" and tried to kill it in Kylo, but forgot that there are OTHER factors which Palpatine took into consideration which he didn't. Palpatine's Empire (The First Galactic Empire) lasted 23 years. Snoke never even managed to CREATE a functioning empire in practice.

What a better schemer he was, wasn't he?

And he even had the ability to basically alter people's minds/ambitions at will. If Palpatine had that kind of power, do you know how much he could have accomplished? He would be in control of all of time and space right now.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Aside from some of the other, more esoteric, things he accomplished in the Unknown Regions, Snoke succeeded in saving the Empire from imminent obliteration, and forging it into the First Order(albeit by using the foundations Palpatine had laid for him.) He succeeded in building an immense military, and immense super-weapons to go with it. He succeeded in destroying the New Republic's capital worlds, and sending legions of the FO off to conquer other key worlds... Snoke struck such a death blow to the Republic, in fact, that as of TLJ he was set to completely overthrow the Republic(and moreover the galaxy itself) in a matter of weeks.

...But then, in his hubris, Snoke allowed himself to be merc'd by Kylo(a mediocre apprentice), and essentially handed him the reigns to the FO in its entirety -- a failure so complete that it would have sickened Palpatine to his core, imo.

The_Tempest Senior Member

The extent of Snoke's military build up is hard to determine. Fry wrote one of the companion books to TLJ as well, incredible Vehicles or some such. It states that the FO owes much to the various shipyards and military installations Sheev seeded throughout the Unknown Regions.

And for what it's worth: Fry himself thinks it would have been a bad idea for Snoke to attract the Emperor's attention.

(Very last question.)

Freedon Nadd Senior Member

Guys why you talk about the nuncanon? Are you Mouse fans?

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The extent of Snoke's military build up is hard to determine. Fry wrote one of the companion books to TLJ as well, incredible Vehicles or some such. It states that the FO owes much to the various shipyards and military installations Sheev seeded throughout the Unknown Regions.

And for what it's worth: Fry himself thinks it would have been a bad idea for Snoke to attract the Emperor's attention.

(Very last question.)

Sounds about right. 👆

I think it goes without saying that if it hadn't been for Palpatine's underlying contingencies and planning, the First Order never would have come into fruition, period. He laid the foundation for pretty much everything Snoke built.