The Judges who have been selected for this debate are as follows:
- MythLord
- XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
- Tempest
- DarthAnt66
- TheEllimist
- Freedon_Nadd
The person with the most votes will be assigned to the role of supreme judge. Their duties would include contacting the other judges and creating a standardized criteria rubric for final submission at the end of the debate.
Once I post my opener, the supreme judge will serve as the arbiter for any matters that arise between Jack and myself. They hold no more power than the other judges, but are responsible for the organizational aspect, if that makes any sense.
This being said, MythLord and XSUPREMEXSKILLZ both accrued 10 votes each, so the role of supreme judge will be shared between them unless one relinquishes the role in this thread.
As stated in the original post, a judge abandoning the debate does not warrant a replacement.
If you acknowledge being selected as a judge please make it known.
Expect my opener no sooner or later than 26 and 50 hours from now, respectively
Note to Reader:
I will not be shooting myself in the foot here by trying to counter arguments about Tenebrous that Jack may or may not make. It is not my job to analyze Tenebrous’s feats and explain why they are or aren’t applicable here. So yes, this opener is not going to come off as being much more than a condensed respect thread for Dooku. Jack can make his own arguments.
The purpose of this opener is as follows:
1. Establish Tyranus’s exceptional familiarity with various sith-techniques and force applications that rival or surpass Tenebrous’s own.
2. Establish the large power gap between Tenebrous and Dooku via powerscaling
3. Establish Count Dooku as the superior swordsman
Dooku’s force accolades
In the first portion of my opener I aim to direct your attention to the various sith and jedi teachings that Dooku had under his belt, to establish him as Tenebrous’s superior when concerning the ability to apply, defend, and counter various force techniques.
I would like to establish Dooku’s vast understanding of the force and the many abilities he has to offer. By the end of this segment, I hope to convince you that Tenebrous does not bring to this battle any abilities that Tyranus is unfamiliar with; rather it is Tenebrous who will be facing a practioner with various force abilities at his disposal that Rugess Nome may not be familiar with.
If Tenebrous wins this battle, it will not be through a superior understanding of the force.
Tyranus had access to Darth Bane’s Rule of Two Manifesto illustrating a wide array of force abilities including:
Blind
Convection
Crucitorn
Cryokinesis
Death Field
Drain Life
Hatred
Horror
Inertia
Mind Shard
Memory Walk
It is reasonable to assume that Dooku possessed knowledge on all these abilities as illustrated in the manifesto, and likewise knows how to defend against them:
"Darth Bane's Rule of Two was a keystone of the Sith Order for centuries. The Battle of Ruusan, nearly a millennium ago, would have ended the Sith Order had Darth Bane not reconstituted it as a diarchy operating from the shadows. His writings became part of the Sith Archives passed down from master to apprentice for generations. During the Clone Wars, my servant Count Dooku shared the book with Jedi agent Quinlan Vos in an ill-conceived effort to lure and corrupt him."
Source: Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
Along with Bane’s Manifesto, Dooku also had complete access to the ancient Sith archives which continued to grow with information after each generation of Banite Sith. This means that it is completely possible for Dooku to possess knowledge on force abilities unknown to Tenebrous, as the archives grew in data after Plagueis and Sidious made their own contributions. In other words, Dooku having been several generations ahead of Tenebrous as a Banite sith means that he is likely familiar with any of the force techniques and knowledge that Tenebrous published in the Sith archives. Again, this goes to show that Tenebrous does not possess any secrets or force abilities that would surprise Dooku in combat:
Darth Bane's Rule of Two was a keystone of the Sith Order for centuries. The Battle of Ruusan, nearly a millennium ago, would have ended the Sith Order had Darth Bane not reconstituted it as a diarchy operating from the shadows. His writings became part of the Sith Archives passed down from master to apprentice for generations.
Source: Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.
Source: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
It is insinuated that Tyranus possessed a vastly greater knowledge of the force than Asajj Ventress, despite already having taught her numerous secrets on the topic. Additionally, it is said that Dooku owned an entire shelf of holocrons to learn from and advance his knowledge and power in the force:
"Have I not taught you many secrets, Asajj?"
"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily. As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly. "I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."
…
"I have rarely been more serious." The Count paced over to a shelf of holocrons on the wall, plucked one out, and inserted it into the comm cube on his desk.
- Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Dooku’s knowledge in the force was considered to be virtually unrivaled.
“With a near unrivalled knowledge of the Force combined with formidable skill with a lightsaber, Dooku was virtually indomitable.”
- Source: Insider #109
Tyranus had demonstrated the ability to utilize doppelganger; the power to create illusions of oneself or other objects. Dooku’s use of the ability was so advanced, that he fooled Anakin, a powerful force-user himself, into pursuing and engaging in combat with his double. In a duel with Tenebrous, this ability would prove incredibly useful in confusing the Bith, allowing Dooku to exploit his diverted attention; whether that be by sneak saber attack, or throwing vehicles in a mass telekinetic assault.
Tracking Dooku to the Techno Union foundries on Metalorn, Anakin valiantly faced the Count again and, to the young Jedi's surprise, seemingly defeated the Sith Lord. But it was in fact another of Tyranus' tricks. Dooku created a Doppelganger, a weaker dark side manifestation of himself, to detain Anakin and further lure him to the dark side. Count Dooku escaped once again.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #116
Additionally, Dooku has created illusions of Sith Lords to distract his opponents (we know that it is Dooku who does this because the visions dissipate once he leaves):
Then the darkness came alive with visions. The Sith Lords, mighty in their armor, terrifying in their decaying, bloodied faces. They rushed at the Jedi, only to disappear in a shower of splintered shadow.
…
Obi-Wan took a breath. He walked forward, straight at Qui-Gon. The image disappeared.
Shaken, he continued into the darkness. Now it was easier to walk past the Sith Lords, the visions who snarled and hissed and sent out grasping fingers as he walked past. He had seen the worst.
…
Something rushed out, as if a great power had removed its protection from Omega.
The visions of the Sith Lords faded. The dark side of the Force retreated. The Sith would not be found. Obi-Wan knew he had withdrawn both his presence and his protection.
Source: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
Tyranus possessed the ability to defend against force drain. While this particular feat is not applicable in this battle as Tenebrous does not possess the ability to drain opponents, it goes to show just how knowledgeable Dooku was with all arcane aspects of the force, possessing knowledge on how to defend from even the most advanced force abilities:
“Dooku was guided by the ghost of Ulic Qel-Droma, who taught him how to excavate the Force Harvester without harm. As the Force Harvester siphons the life energies of everything around it (and can drain entire armies), Dooku was obviously taught to shield himself from its effects:”
The Dark Reaper had not been seen in millennia, but Count Dooku knew that some Force spirits persisted even after death. Dooku sent a Trade Federation fleet to frozen Rhen Var to secure Ulic Qel-Droma's crypt. Guided by the ancient Jedi ghost, Dooku began excavating the buried Force Harvester on Raxus Prime.
Source: The New Essential Chronology
Created by ancient Sith Lords during the Great Hyperspace War, the Dark Reaper is a Force-draining weapon rediscovered by the Krath and used in the Great Sith War. At its heart is a device known as a Force Harvester, which drains the life essence from all living things around it. When activated, the Dark Reaper drains the life forces in the surrounding area, channeling that energy to boost the power of its turbolasers. More than just a weapon of mass destruction, the Dark Reaper can defend itself using the very Force energy it steals from nearby living beings.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Dooku has successfully utilized force deflection against lightning of at least his own magnitude, if not more. It should be noted that the ability to deflect force lightning is a challenge for even the most powerful jedi masters. In the unlikely event that Dooku is disarmed of his lightsaber, he is capable of defending himself from Tenebrous’s lightning:
Called Sith lightning, these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.
Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
Establishing the power gap
This portion of my opener seeks to establish just how powerful Dooku really was in the force, both as a jedi and a sith, by presenting some of his many force accolades and analyzing his placement in relation to other force users through Darth Bane’s Rule of Two. When it is all said and done, I plan to have convinced you that Tenebrous is out of Tyranus’s league when it comes to strength in the force.
Dooku has shown the ability to move at an even faster speed than Vader. The latter can move at the speed of light, but Dooku is capable of exceeding the speed of light:
Just then Obi-Wan Kenobi turned his head. He seemed to be looking straight at Luke. A smile was on his face. This was Vader's chance. With the speed of light he slashed at Ben. The blow should have cut the old man in half. It sliced right through his robe. But the Jedi was gone. There was nothing left of him. Just two pieces of cloth lying on the floor.
Classic Star Wars: A New Hope
Obi-Wan used the Force to summon his lightsaber and tossed it to Anakin. With two lightsabers, the young Jedi attacked anew. But Dooku blocked every thrust and, step by step, drove Anakin back. He slashed through one lightsaber, extinguishing its blade. Then, with a stroke faster than light, he cut through Anakin's right arm at the elbow.
Mighty Chronicles: Attack of the Clones
Rather than focusing on the physical technicalities of what moving at or beyond the speed of light entails, I’d like you to compare these two feats relative to each other. Because this type of speed augmentation stems on an user’s strength and ability to utilize the force to enhance their physical movement, it can be assumed that Dooku is more powerful in the force than Vader as of A New Hope at the very least.
Okay…well that one was a semi-joke, but don’t dismiss it altogether 😊 .
Banite Sith Scaling
Darth Bane’s Rule of Two served many purposes, one of the most important being its intention to create a more powerful generation of sith with each passing. As such, Tyranus is more powerful than previous generations of Banite Sith:
- Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook
- Force and Destiny
Darth Sidious considered the combined forces of Dooku and Ventress to be a threat to his rule. He ordered for the elimination of Ventress to prevent Dooku from overthrowing him. This goes to show how powerful Dooku truly was in comparison to the likes of Yoda and Dooku:
Count Dooku: Yes, Lord Sidious.
Darth Sidious: Lord Tyranus, I sense how powerful your assassin has become from afar.
Count Dooku: She has become very important to me.
Darth Sidious: Too important, I'm afraid. I hope you would not be training an apprentice to overthrow me.
Count Dooku: Never! My allegiance is to you and you alone.
Darth Sidious: Then prove your loyalty my apprentice, eliminate her.
Count Dooku: She is my most trusted...
Darth Sidious: I SAID ELIMINATE HER!
Count Dooku: As you wish, my lord.
It is stated that Dooku, had he not left the jedi order, would have become a jedi master on the level of Yoda:
Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.
Source: Insider #113
Although different sources are inconsistent on the matter, it is stated that Yoda and Dooku were evenly matched during their force duel on Geonosis. While it is true that Yoda did not press his own attack, the fact he had to resort to light-saber dueling to come close to defeating Dooku is noteworthy. Furthermore, Yoda legitimately felt that he was in danger while fighting Dooku.
The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.
Source: http://imgur.com/84WNvvI (Star Wars Fact File)
The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.
Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Count Dooku and Master Yoda engaging in a titanic struggle of Force powers on Geonosis.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Aged, experienced, diplomatic, informative, brilliant with a lightsaber… Yes, all of these things. And not unacquainted with the power of the dark side. For that reason he understood just how dangerous this new Sith Lord was. He hadn't had a sense of that danger until he had fought Dooku on Geonosis.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
Yoda and Dooku are both classified as super-powerful force users relative to one another:
It is Yoda who brings the newly-created Clone Army to the Battle of Genosis (22 BBY), and it is Yoda who confronts an escaping Count Dooku for a spectacular Lightsaber clash, one super-powerful Force warrior battling another.
Source: Star Wars Trading Card Game
Yoda and Dooku are considered to be near-equals:
Yoda and Dooku were almost equals, with the little Jedi Master having perhaps a slight edge over his former padawan.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #34 (Relaunched)
Dooku has demonstrated the ability to utilize force barrier against the attacks of other powerful force-wielders, such as Mace Windu and Asajj Ventress.
Here Dooku successfully shields himself from a blast from Ventress so powerful that it not only sends Obi-Wan flying, but shoots glass projectiles with enough velocity to decapitate an IG-100 magnaguard’s durasteel neck:
Dooku successfully shields himself from Mace Windu’s force-wave that sends two magnaguards flying. It should be noted that Mace Windu’s force-waves have brought down armies of droids:
Dooku’s force lightning possesses the power to instantly kill several Kiffar warriors:
Dooku has demonstrated the power to ragdoll mid-tier force users such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, Asajj Ventress, and Quinlan Vos:
Her face went pale.
Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "It's the blood vessels I hate, "Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside like balloons about to pop."
"P-p-p-please..."
"But worse anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowed around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite." A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's voice went dark and far away. "All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitless stars, the things you've done..."
The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream. "The Troxan delegation is at the door."
Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Establishing Dooku as the superior swordsman
I do not want to dwell too much into this topic in my opening, but I will quickly state what needs to be said about Dooku as a swordsman. Tenebrous has little to his name as a lightsaber duelist, so I don’t see the point in going into much detail when concerning specific stylistic details. What does need to be established, as I can sense it is the only thing going for Rugess Nome, is that Dooku has no difficulty in dealing with aggressive, powerful opponents.
During their duel on The Invisible Hand, Tyranus defends himself from Anakin and Obi-Wan’s assault “effortlessly”, despite the duo being some of the most powerful and capable jedi during that era:
The beams of their lightsabers hummed and clashed as they moved across the chamber. Dooku defended himself effortlessly.
- Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
Count Dooku deserved his reputation as a master of the old style of lightsaber fencing. Even with both Anakin and Obi-Wan pressing him, he seemed at ease. The Jedi used every trick they knew, leaping and striking from unexpected directions. Dooku blocked them all.
- Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization
It is insinuated that Dooku’s skills as a swordsman are second only to Yoda’s, with Mace Windu being perhaps the only other person who can match Dooku:
Dooku had been reckoned one of the foremost duellists in the Jedi Order, second only to Master Yoda.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #60
The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
[Dooku's] skill with a lightsaber is matched only by Master Yoda.
Source: Force Collection
Dooku can outclass almost any duelist other than Yoda:
Dooku carried a lightsaber with a curved handle and practiced an elegant fighting style; he could outclass nearly any opponent except for Yoda.
Source: Insider #113
Dooku carried a lightsaber with a curved handle and practiced an elegant fencing style; he could outclass nearly any opponent except for Yoda.
Source: Insider: Lords of the Sith
Yoda and Dooku were almost equals, with the little Jedi Master having perhaps a slight edge over his former padawan.
Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #34 (Relaunched)
Dooku was only defeated by an especially enraged, dark-side drawing, Anakin Skywalker, who is a tier 9 duelist among the likes of Yoda and Sidious. Even then in his enraged state, Anakin did not easily defeat Dooku. The latter held his ground for a considerable amount of time (despite having been surprised by Anakin’s unanticipated immersion in the darkside) with sources stating that they were evenly matched at this point in the duel:
All of the super battle droids had been cut down; only Anakin and Dooku were left. Down the long length of the room they fought, neither one able to gain an advantage.
Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization
Dooku appeared, engaging both Jedi at the same time. He first defeated Obi-Wan, Force choking him and nearly crushing the Jedi Master with a heavy railing. An enraged Anakin continued the fight, unleashing a strength Dooku had not anticipated. The young Jedi cut off the Sith Lord’s hands, drew Dooku’s lightsaber to him, and the Separatist leader fell to his knees.
- http://www.starwars.com/databank/count-dooku
Gilliard’s explanation of Anakin being a tier 9 opponent along with Sidious and Yoda:
"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.”
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html
In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.
Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/jtf/palpatine.asp
So in conclusion, Dooku was only defeated by a tier 9 enraged Anakin, and even then, he did not go down easily. Prior to that, Dooku defended against attacks from both Anakin and Obi-Wan, tier 9 and 8 duelists respectively, “effortlessly”.
In order to have any chance of defeating Dooku, Tenebrous would need to be established as a tier 9 opponent on the level of Yoda and Dooku to match Dooku. Given that so few users are ever able to achieve this level, Tenebrous would certainly have his work cut out for him.
Respect threads used: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/count-dookudarth-tyranus-respect-thread-part-1/95276/
Yeah I know the formatting is shit.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd"all interpretations are valid. However, some interpretations are more reasonable than others.”
What if judges aren't in accord with your interpretation of events and characters?(your adversary included)
It's up to Jack to explain why they're not reasonable, if that's the case. Judges can take note of everything and give their own reasoning at the conclusion of the debate. Do not say anything here that could give Jack the unfair advantage.