Originally posted by quanchi112
I know you think these are rebuttals but they are not. Being more powerful helps but once again you are ignoring the context of this all. Anakins style matched up better against Dooku than Kenobi. That clearly matters as well as Anakin being more powerful than Kenobi but still a peer as evidenced by the force push stalemate.I know Kenobi is not more skilled than Anakin making his loss even more embarrassing for Vader. Maul, Tano, Vader are all peers to each other regardless of who comes out on top. They are not on the level of yoda, Sidious, or even Windu. That is the point.
Vader has just as much intimate knowledge of his teacher as his teacher had on him. Quit making excuses Vader took the loss. Accept it. He blew it.
No he beat Dooku because he was simply way more powerful and a better sword fighter. As per Sidious, as per Nick Gillard and as per the ROTS Novel. You see difference between my rebuttals and yours is I actually provide evidence for my claims, whereas you just blurt out random words.
Lol how is Ahsoka on par with Vader? She was on par with Maul, clearly, but getting KOd in round 1 after being forced on the defensive the whole time is not parity, Lmao. Not to mention the director and voice actors have all confirmed Vader > Maul level. Again evidence on my side. Random words on yours.
Also Anakin > Machine Vader in any case. As per Lucas. So no Machine Vader isnt on par with Yoda, Sidious, Mace. I never claimed he was - try to pay attention next time you blurt out random words.
But Anakin is, as per Lucas and Nick Gillard and the ROTS Novel.
Their intimate knowledge of each other completely changes the fight Lmao. And clearly benefitted Kenobi more (as per Nick Gillard and the ROTS Novel).
Originally posted by quanchi112I never said he chose him because of his style. Quit misrepresenting my points because your position is untenable. Sidious chose him due to his power, age, and his mental instability being fertile grounds for manipulation. That being said Anakin matched up better against Dooku than Kenobi does but overallAnakin is the more skilled and powerful Sith than a Kenobi is a Jedi. Kenobi still prevailed because they are peers and he had the power and strength to contend with Vader until he made one crucial mistake.
Anakin would have been just as easily manipulated in AOTC. Or just kidnapped and brainwashed as a child. Try again.
Sidious chose him as of ROTS because he proved himself the more powerful apprentice by beating Dooku.
But going by your logic he chose the guy with the better style 😂
Originally posted by quanchi112You are ignoring Yodas own words in the film. Kenobi is not on the level of Sidious but he can challenge and he did defeat Vader. You ignore the film and Lucas who clearly has yoda, Sidious, and Windu at the top. Vader has the potential to be number 1 until Kenobi relegated him to the suit life.
No I am not ignoring Yodas words. You have already conceded Anakin and Obi-Wan have intimate knowledge of each other which completely changes the fight.
Lucas says that about Anakin as well, so try again.
Originally posted by Darth ThorDooku is more powerful than Kenobi but you abandon this logic since Kenobi falls into your point. Anakin is a better sword fighter and more powerful than Kenobi yet he lost.
No he beat Dooku because he was simply way more powerful and a better sword fighter. As per Sidious, as per Nick Gillard and as per the ROTS Novel. You see difference between my rebuttals and yours is I actually provide evidence for my claims, whereas you just blurt out random words.
Provide the quotes. I am citing Yodas dialogue from the film you moron. That is direct evidence.
Their fight. At that point past mauls prime. He was broken and unable to evolve. Plus Kenobi using his past experience to have intimate knowledge of mauls tendencies does not apply to Vader. Peers definitely. That is their opinion but again maul is far past his prime.Lol how is Ahsoka on par with Vader? She was on par with Maul, clearly, but getting KOd in round 1 after being forced on the defensive the whole time is not parity, Lmao. Not to mention the director and voice actors have all confirmed Vader > Maul level. Again evidence on my side. Random words on yours.
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Glad to hear you come around to what I have been saying for years. You are a slow learner.
Also Anakin > Machine Vader in any case. As per Lucas. So no Machine Vader isnt on par with Yoda, Sidious, Mace. I never claimed he was - try to pay attention next time you blurt out random words.
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Provide the quotes.
But Anakin is, as per Lucas and Nick Gillard and the ROTS Novel.Their intimate knowledge of each other completely changes the fight Lmao. And clearly benefitted Kenobi more (as per Nick Gillard and the ROTS Novel).
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So you believe intimate knowledge only benefits Kenobi not Vader?
😂
Vader was the better sword fighter, more powerful, and had intimate knowledge of Kenobi but he failed. Yodas words make it clear Kenobi has the power to challenge Vader not Sidious. Vader was eventually going to get there but he had not achieved it yet. You can pretend all you want but Sidious, Windu, and yoda are on the highest level.
Speculation.
Anakin would have been just as easily manipulated in AOTC. Or just kidnapped and brainwashed as a child. Try again.Sidious chose him as of ROTS because he proved himself the more powerful apprentice by beating Dooku.
But going by your logic he chose the guy with the better style
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That was one of the reasons yes. Power, age, and manipulating him for years to come all played into this. Vader did not pan out because he lost to a weaker and less skilled Kenobi at his physical apex.
😂
No I am not ignoring Yodas words. You have already conceded Anakin and Obi-Wan have intimate knowledge of each other which completely changes the fight.Lucas says that about Anakin as well, so try again. [/B]
It works both ways not just for Obi. Yodas words specifically addressed the power of Sidious. Kenobi could not challenge him. Just not in the same playing field but he is a peer to Vader and he proved it. Greater disparity of power between Palpatine and Kenobi than Vader and Kenobi.
^ Funny I accused you of not providing actual evidences and instead just blurting out random words. And your response was the above, a post full of random words, with zero evidence or sources to back you up. Hilarious.
I can provide my quotes no problem. Most the actual Star Wars fans aware of the canon know of them which is why I usually only need to refer to them over here.
Originally posted by Darth ThorSp Yodas words from the film do not count as a source? It is a primary source from the film itself. You ignoring the meaning of his words and Kenobi beating someone more powerful, more skilled with just as much knowledge of himself as vice versa is pretty clear. Kenobi was a peer to Vader not Sidious, Windu, or Yoda clearly denoting a higher power level.
^ Funny I accused you of not providing actual evidences and instead just blurting out random words. And your response was the above, a post full of random words, with zero evidence or sources to back you up. Hilarious.I can provide my quotes no problem. Most the actual Star Wars fans aware of the canon know of them which is why I usually only need to refer to them over here.
Originally posted by quanchi112
Sp Yodas words from the film do not count as a source? It is a primary source from the film itself.
Ooh one source you gave. Well done. Except thats already been addressed by Nick Gillard and by the ROTS Novel. Which I have explained numerous times, and which you have even conceded to already LMAO.
They knew each others moved inside out. So could not get past each others defences. Making it a completely different fight.
Also that was about who Obi-Wan can take on. Not about who Anakin can.
So Try again.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ooh one source you gave. Well done. Except thats already been addressed by Nick Gillard and by the ROTS Novel. Which I have explained numerous times, and which you have even conceded to already LMAO.They knew each others moved inside out. So could not get past each others defences. Making it a completely different fight.
Also that was about who Obi-Wan can take on. Not about who Anakin can.
So Try again.
Thor, Quan doesn't do novels or comics or anything else other than the movies and TV shows. Kinda wasting your time here.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Thor, Quan doesn't do novels or comics or anything else other than the movies and TV shows. Kinda wasting your time here.
He uses sources when they suit his view. Like Andy Serkis comments on Snoke.
Just getting him to concede hes making everything up and doesnt know what hes talking about.
Ive already got him to concede today that Snoke isnt the only force user to own another via TK alone.
Hes also conceded Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each others moves inward and out. Thats 2 concessions in 1 day.
Originally posted by Darth ThorThe novel has no bearing on the film. The film speaks for itself. Kenobi is not powerful enough to challenge Sidious but he is powerful enough to challenge Vader.
Ooh one source you gave. Well done. Except thats already been addressed by Nick Gillard and by the ROTS Novel. Which I have explained numerous times, and which you have even conceded to already LMAO.They knew each others moved inside out. So could not get past each others defences. Making it a completely different fight.
Also that was about who Obi-Wan can take on. Not about who Anakin can.
So Try again.
If Maul knew Yodas moves inside out he still would not win due to a higher power level. Vader knew Kenobis moves yet still decided to make a critical mistake in their duel.
Anakin did not ever get to Sidious power levels. He never lived to his potential. That is the point. You can pretend all you want but I am just trying to spoon feed the obvious to you.
Originally posted by Darth ThorThat was not my claim. My claim was no one of that power level has even been owned that easily before via tk alone. Rey and Ren are extremely powerful.
He uses sources when they suit his view. Like Andy Serkis comments on Snoke.Just getting him to concede hes making everything up and doesnt know what hes talking about.
Ive already got him to concede today that Snoke isnt the only force user to own another via TK alone.
Hes also conceded Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each others moves inward and out. Thats 2 concessions in 1 day.
I never said they did not but it works both ways. If a higher skilled and more powerful opponent knows your moves inside out he should win hands down as there are no surprises. Logic, sport.
Originally posted by quanchi112
The novel has no bearing on the film.
Go to the Movie versus forum then.
This forum is for the entire canon.
Originally posted by quanchi112The film speaks for itself. Kenobi is not powerful enough to challenge Sidious but he is powerful enough to challenge Vader.
Kenobi also wasnt powerful enough to defeat Dooku doofus. Does that mean Anakin couldnt? So you have no point as per usual.
Originally posted by quanchi112If Maul knew Yodas moves inside out he still would not win due to a higher power level. Vader knew Kenobis moves yet still decided to make a critical mistake in their duel.
Maul already challenged Windu. So if he knew Windus moves inside out that would presumably make for a much more even sword fight.
And since you place Windu above Yoda In a sword battle, you really have no leg to stand on.
And Maul jumped in against Kenobi and got taken out in 3 moves. So does that make Kenobi >>> Maul? Both Maul and Anakin were mentally broken/unstable at the time, whilst Kenobi was keeping a cool head in both scenarios giving him the psychological edge. But his power and sword prowess is not = Anakin or >>>>> Mauls.
Originally posted by Darth ThorIn general no one needs supplemental info to help them understand a film. No one is stopping you from posting it here. I already gave evidence from the film which backs my claim. Go yell at George Lucas over it.
Go to the Movie versus forum then.This forum is for the entire canon.
That has no bearing on Anakin. Completely different fighting style, less skilled, and less powerful. Anakin is a peer to Kenobi but that does not make him an exact replica. Anakins strengths really exploited Dookus weaknesses which does not apply to Kenobi.
Kenobi also wasnt powerful enough to defeat Dooku doofus. Does that mean Anakin couldnt? So you have no point as per usual.
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Maul already challenged Windu. So if he knew Windus moves inside out that would presumably make for a much more even sword fight.
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Windu is not yoda and you trying to discredit me only further weakens your position. You need to stick to your position and quit trying to attack me personally.
And since you place Windu above Yoda In a sword battle, you really have no leg to stand on.And Maul jumped in against Kenobi and got taken out in 3 moves. So does that make Kenobi >>> Maul? Both Maul and Anakin were mentally broken/unstable at the time, whilst Kenobi was keeping a cool head in both scenarios giving him the psychological edge. But his power and sword prowess is not = Anakin or >>>>> Mauls. [/B]
Maul was broken by that point and I already explained the reasoning. No, Anakin was raging he was focused on his hatred which is what the Sith revel in. Maul was broken and lost as per Filoni. Vader was lost to the Jedi but embraced the Sith way.
Kenobi was always better off mentally than most Sith but again that is a factor. Maul relied more so on his physical prowess than Kenobi so when he was past his prime it diminished him more. Maul was physically and mentally diminished the last time he faced Kenobi.