BZ challenge posted to h1 posted.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=16615221#post16615221
Let me post some math that are probably better than h1's math of the Leviathan punch.
http://vsdebating.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:ConsumingFire/Hulk_punches_a_Leviathan
About four gigajoules, or about a ton of TNT. Sufficient to destroy a building. Which is reasonable really, seeing as the Leviathan was plowing through them.
I don't know how well h1's numbers corroborate this. I'd recommend asking dadudemon, or Astner if he is still around. I can't think of anyone else who has really calculated feats like this.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) I can certainly agree that strong = tough. Just needed you to clarify that that is what you meant (thus the question at the end).2) Batman is a human, so I'm not sure what you mean. I acknowledge your correction, just that I also wanted to address you pre-correction comment out of courtesy since you made the time to type it up. Why the aggression?
Durability can come from a lot of things in fiction. But being able to figure out where his durability works and getting a full understanding of its upper limits from (maybe) simply looking at what powers his cells is a bit of a stretch. Especially since it was never even alluded to in the scene in question at all.
3) And I can agree with you here. Some basic understanding of the device is an acceptable read on the scene. But we need to agree that, even at that point, the device and its inner workings is still being portrayed as unfathomable. Thus, they can't be experts and we cannot take their words as literal and quantifiable.
4) I can def agree to this. In fact, this is exactly how I saw the scene. What's our disagreement again?
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) I never said you claimed it. I was merely saying that I might be missing some scenes so my understanding of what the movie was trying to say might be missing some context (and that might be where our disagreement lies).Granted I also mentioned what I needed to see in order to change my mind so perhaps it was bit leading?
2) Not quantifiably, tho. He might know "really really lots" of energy but not its "megatonnage." I'm sure we can agree to that.
3) "Let's zap this maybe not-dead guy with life energy and see if it works wasn't a bad plan, really". So I can certainly agree that it worked out for the best in the end. 👆
All right, so you agree that the Motherbox can destroy and remake worlds using its limitless energy, that Superman was exposed to that energy and his body was sufficiently durable enough to withstand the energy.
Where we disagree is on it being quantifiable. You say it is not. I say it is. Let's assume the low end of what the Mother Boxes can do. Let's say they don't completely destroy and remake the entire planet, but just the surface landmasses and oceans. Superman was durable enough to withstand energy that could destroy the surface of a planet. Do you agree?
Originally posted by Silent MasterI don't believe Cyborg was exposed to the full energies of the Mother Box, given that awakening it to use on Superman required a Kryptonian Genesis Chamber and the Speed Force to activate it, whereas with Cyborg it activated on its own. Cyborg also would have only had the parts of his body that needed mechanical parts exposed to any energy, as opposed to Superman whose body was dead.
Those energies didn't even damage Cyborg or the room they were in.
As far as it doing no damage to the room they were in, that depends on how you interpret the scene itself.
Was all the visible damage caused by the Mother Box, or Superman? Who knows?
More to the point, who cares? The energy wasn't focused on the room, it was focused on Superman. I don't believe Thor's forging of Stormbreaker had the room take any damage either.
Originally posted by Silent MasterGiven that Cyborg's shield could tank Superman's heat vision fairly well, and Superman's heat vision can hurt Kryptonians such as himself, is it really such a stretch that Cyborg has durability approaching Superman's, as the hardiest member of the JL short of Superman himself?
I was thinking of the scene where Superman and Cyborg were trying to separate the boxes.
Originally posted by NemeBro
Given that Cyborg's shield could tank Superman's heat vision fairly well, and Superman's heat vision can hurt Kryptonians such as himself, is it really such a stretch that Cyborg has durability approaching Superman's, as the hardiest member of the JL short of Superman himself?
Originally posted by NemeBro
All right, so you agree that the Motherbox can destroy and remake worlds using its limitless energy, that Superman was exposed to that energy and his body was sufficiently durable enough to withstand the energy.Where we disagree is on it being quantifiable. You say it is not. I say it is. Let's assume the low end of what the Mother Boxes can do. Let's say they don't completely destroy and remake the entire planet, but just the surface landmasses and oceans. Superman was durable enough to withstand energy that could destroy the surface of a planet. Do you agree?
While we agree that the purpose of the Motherbox is to terraform worlds, you seem to be missing a few important pieces in your logic:
Superman was exposed to energies of a single motherbox for a very short period of time.
This is important because of a few reasons:
1) The motherboxes themselves (individually) DO NOT possess the power to reshape a planet. They need to combine to form the Unity. Where, as Cyborg explained:
Cyborg: The Unity brings all three boxes together in perfect sync. Its power builds until it can't be contained. But if I can cause a delay between each box, even for a nanosecond… Its energy will cascade. Form a loop. And they'll feed on each other.
Flash: And that's it? We just pull them apart? No fuss, no muss?
Cyborg: Separating the boxes is still gonna cause a massive surge.
This is very important because we do not know exactly (by quantification) how the relationship between the 3 Motherboxes generate the types of energy needed to perform the the planet-reshaping. We have an idea how it is being done, but not the numbers behind it. It could be an additive relationship (1/3 of 3), but it can also be multiplicative or even exponential (ex. the power gem, by itself is planetary, combined with the other gems+the gauntlet then it is universal in scope). And I am more inclined to believe in it being multiplicative/exponential in nature (due to the fact that Unity is even necessary, also see below).
2) The aspect of time. We do not know how long it takes for the Unity to reshape the surface of the planet (as we see it do during the WW flashback as well as end battle of the movie). But from what is shown, it seems to take quite a bit of time to do.
Here is a scene where they were talking about the Unity Earth change hitting a nearby resettlement:
Cyborg: The Earth starts changing, it’ll hit them first.
Batman: How long have we got?
Cyborg: A few hours.
A few hours to hit a nearby settlement (a few square miles?). That is not an instant-power release but a slow building-up process. In fact it may take many many many years (even if 10 sq miles = 1 hour it would take the device 2000 years to cover the almost 200 million square miles of the Earth's surface), than it would take to encompass the planet unless the buildup was exponential in nature (w/c is another reason why I think the relationship between boxes is exponential).
Superman was energized by a single Motherbox for a few seconds (about ten seconds). Less time than it took (about 15 seconds as seen when Steppenwolf combined it before the end battle) for 3 fully awake Motherboxes to even combine to even trigger Unity.
From the aspect of time and the fact that this was done using single motherbox, I strongly disagree on the planetary-surface (or even close to it) scale of the "feat".
Originally posted by NemeBro
Let me post some math that are probably better than h1's math of the Leviathan punch.http://vsdebating.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:ConsumingFire/Hulk_punches_a_Leviathan
About four gigajoules, or about a ton of TNT. Sufficient to destroy a building. Which is reasonable really, seeing as the Leviathan was plowing through them.
I don't know how well h1's numbers corroborate this. I'd recommend asking dadudemon, or Astner if he is still around. I can't think of anyone else who has really calculated feats like this.
Well, 1 ton of TNT can do this:
YouTube video
So that's pretty powerful. 😛
Not sure if I agree with the math, tho. But I won't complain. 😄
Originally posted by NemeBroOr that hv is vastly overrated.
Given that Cyborg's shield could tank Superman's heat vision fairly well, and Superman's heat vision can hurt Kryptonians such as himself, is it really such a stretch that Cyborg has durability approaching Superman's, as the hardiest member of the JL short of Superman himself?
Originally posted by Nibedicus
While we agree that the purpose of the Motherbox is to terraform worlds, you seem to be missing a few important pieces in your logic:Superman was exposed to energies of a single motherbox for a very short period of time.
This is important because of a few reasons:
1) The motherboxes themselves (individually) DO NOT possess the power to reshape a planet. They need to combine to form the Unity. Where, as Cyborg explained:
Cyborg: The Unity brings all three boxes together in perfect sync. Its power builds until it can't be contained. But if I can cause a delay between each box, even for a nanosecond… Its energy will cascade. Form a loop. And they'll feed on each other.
Flash: And that's it? We just pull them apart? No fuss, no muss?
Cyborg: Separating the boxes is still gonna cause a massive surge.This is very important because we do not know exactly (by quantification) how the relationship between the 3 Motherboxes generate the types of energy needed to perform the the planet-reshaping. We have an idea how it is being done, but not the numbers behind it. It could be an additive relationship (1/3 of 3), but it can also be multiplicative or even exponential (ex. the power gem, by itself is planetary, combined with the other gems+the gauntlet then it is universal in scope). And I am more inclined to believe in it being multiplicative/exponential in nature (due to the fact that Unity is even necessary, also see below).
2) The aspect of time. We do not know how long it takes for the Unity to reshape the surface of the planet (as we see it do during the WW flashback as well as end battle of the movie). But from what is shown, it seems to take quite a bit of time to do.
Here is a scene where they were talking about the Unity Earth change hitting a nearby resettlement:
Cyborg: The Earth starts changing, it’ll hit them first.
Batman: How long have we got?
Cyborg: A few hours.A few hours to hit a nearby settlement (a few square miles?). That is not an instant-power release but a slow building-up process. In fact it may take many many many years (even if 10 sq miles = 1 hour it would take the device 2000 years to cover the almost 200 million square miles of the Earth's surface), than it would take to encompass the planet unless the buildup was exponential in nature (w/c is another reason why I think the relationship between boxes is exponential).
Superman was energized by a single Motherbox for a few seconds (about ten seconds). Less time than it took (about 15 seconds as seen when Steppenwolf combined it before the end battle) for 3 fully awake Motherboxes to even combine to even trigger Unity.
From the aspect of time and the fact that this was done using single motherbox, I strongly disagree on the planetary-surface (or even close to it) scale of the "feat".
👆