Originally posted by FrothByte
Just to clarify my stance, so we don't end up with a misunderstanding, I am [b]not saying Thor is more heroic than Cap. I think they are both equally heroic, with each one excelling in different aspects of heroism. In the self-sacrifice category, I believe Thor has the advantage. Not because Cap hasn't showcased self-sacrifice (I'm not trying to diss his efforts) but because Thor has1. More instances of self-sacrifice
- Cap has 2 instances that I count: The plane and grenade scenes. Thor has his death via Destroyer, death via Neutron star, destruction of the Bifrost, destruction of Asgard2. More choices to escape his fate
- as I said earlier, in the plane scene Cap was going to die one way or another. In his grenade scene, he could have chosen life (i.e. ran away) but then he wasn't exactly a fast runner so it's unclear whether he could have escaped the blast radius. In all of Thor's self-sacrifices, he was never in a no-win situation quite like Steve's plane situation. He was sometimes in questionable survival situations like Steve's grenade scene but usually he always had to make a conscious choice to sacrifice something dear to him for the greater good.3. Had to sacrifice more than just his life
- When Cap sacrificed his life (either grenade or plane) he was simply sacrificing his life. Granted, the US army would have lost a good soldier (especially when he became Captain America) but the loss was going to be isolated to him. When Thor sacrificed himself, it wasn't just his life that was going to be lost but also the future king of Asgard. That would leave Asgard with no proper ruler after Odin dies, condemning his people and government to turmoil and to be left under Loki's governance. Thor has also had to sacrifice his planet and his people's means of travel, etc. Its even worse in IW because he had to sacrifice his life even when he was pretty much the only one left who could lead his surviving people.4. Had to make harder decisions
- as I said in #3, Cap is very willing to sacrifice his life, but when other aspects come into play, he's unwilling to make truly hard choices. During the events of Civil War, even though I was team Cap all the way, I have to admit that the way he handled the Accords and Bucky's involvement was very unheroic and quite selfish (in a sense that he did what he wanted to do and didn't put much effort into trying to coordinate with Tony to find the best solution). In IW he was completely unwilling to sacrifice Vision even if that meant saving half the universe. In comparison, Thor had to choose between letting an entire race get exterminated (Frost giants) or destroying his kingdom's means of travel, which would mean they can't protect the 9 realms, which was also his means to travel and visit Jane. He had to choose between letting Ragnarok happen or continue to try and fight Hela. These are decisions that Cap never had to face and never had to make the same kind of sacrifices for.Now if the question was, who was more humble, had more aversion to violence, had better leadership skills, I'd be voting for Cap all the way. But when it comes to self-sacrifice and overcoming hardships, Thor wins those categories. [/B]
Eh, don't totally agree there. IMO, it's not just about the amount you sacrifice, but what you had to do to get it in the first place. So, Steve being willing to sacrifice not only his life, but all the hopes and dreams he had been working towards the whole time, suggests that he would be willing to make similar decisions to Thor if he was put into similar situations with similar to lose. But that's just my opinion of the character based on how he is portrayed in the films. Everyone interprets things differently.
But we both agree that they are comparable in actual heroics, which is the actual thread topic. Fact is anyone on the Avengers team would need to be a hero to do what they do. Hell, even take Iron Man. He's brash, arrogant, rude, and can be a total dick sometimes. Yet even he, despite having a massively successful company, having a romantic partner, friends like Happy, Rhoday, won't hesitate to risk his life by jumping into danger to protect others without a second thought.
Originally posted by FrothByte
H1, have you not been paying attention to the conversation? Thor was saving the people of New Mexico, not just Jane... especially when Jane wasn't in any immediate danger.
Who cares about them?
The warriors 3 and Jane were important to him.
I thought Destroyer came to wipe out the humans. I must be mistaken. I'll accept I'm wrong here.
Anyway, I knew Loki wanted to kill Thor and Thor was on his agenda.
That's why he teleported Destroyer to that location. To find and kill Thor.
There was no where Thor could hide. Loki knew exactly where he was.
So what Thor did wasnt really a true sacrifice. He was going to die anyway.
He knew this.
Bottomline: Cap would have done everything Thor did but we can't say that Thor would have done everything Cap did. Imo, I don't think Thor would have jumped on that grenade.
Cap certainly would not have tried to kill someone for merely trying to reason with him.
Originally posted by h1a8
Who cares about them?
The warriors 3 and Jane were important to him.I thought Destroyer came to wipe out the humans. I must be mistaken. I'll accept I'm wrong here.
Anyway, I knew Loki wanted to kill Thor and Thor was on his agenda.
That's why he teleported Destroyer to that location. To find and kill Thor.There was no where Thor could hide. Loki knew exactly where he was.
So what Thor did wasnt really a true sacrifice. He was going to die anyway.
He knew this.Bottomline: Cap would have done everything Thor did but we can't say that Thor would have done everything Cap did. Imo, I don't think Thor would have jumped on that grenade.
Cap certainly would not have tried to kill someone for merely trying to reason with him.
I'm glad that you finally admitted to lying about Loki trying to destroy all of humanity. Now if you'll only admit to lying about leaving out that Carter and the doctor, two people that cap cares about were also present.
Why do you lie so much?
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Eh, don't totally agree there. IMO, it's not just about the amount you sacrifice, but what you had to do to get it in the first place. So, Steve being willing to sacrifice not only his life, but all the hopes and dreams he had been working towards the whole time, suggests that he would be willing to make similar decisions to Thor if he was put into similar situations with similar to lose. But that's just my opinion of the character based on how he is portrayed in the films. Everyone interprets things differently.But we both agree that they are comparable in actual heroics, which is the actual thread topic. Fact is anyone on the Avengers team would need to be a hero to do what they do. Hell, even take Iron Man. He's brash, arrogant, rude, and can be a total dick sometimes. Yet even he, despite having a massively successful company, having a romantic partner, friends like Happy, Rhoday, won't hesitate to risk his life by jumping into danger to protect others without a second thought.
I get what you're saying, and I'm not trying to take away from Cap. I'm just saying that however important it was for him to achieve his dreams (although at this point he was still only a trainee and not a very good one at that) it still pales in comparison to the choices that Thor had to make. I mean, Thor didn't just need to sacrifice his life, he had to admit to himself that he was useless in a fight and make a conscious decision to NOT fight. I'm not sure Cap could have made a decision like that. And even if he could, that still brings me back to my original point wherein Cap didn't need to make decisions as tough as Thor did in breaking the Bifrost or destroying Asgard. Self-sacrifice is not always just about sacrificing your life.
Originally posted by FrothByte
I get what you're saying, and I'm not trying to take away from Cap. I'm just saying that however important it was for him to achieve his dreams (although at this point he was still only a trainee and not a very good one at that) it still pales in comparison to the choices that Thor had to make. I mean, Thor didn't just need to sacrifice his life, he had to admit to himself that he was useless in a fight and make a conscious decision to NOT fight. I'm not sure Cap could have made a decision like that. And even if he could, that still brings me back to my original point wherein Cap didn't need to make decisions as tough as Thor did in breaking the Bifrost or destroying Asgard. Self-sacrifice is not always just about sacrificing your life.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree here. Because, based on what we have seen of Steve's character, I think that he would be capable and willing of making similar decisions in similar circumstances.
Hell, he gave up his shield easier than Thor gave up his hair (yeah, this isn't a real argument. I am just having fun now).
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, we will have to agree to disagree here. Because, based on what we have seen of Steve's character, I think that he would be capable and willing of making similar decisions in similar circumstances.Hell, he gave up his shield easier than Thor gave up his hair (yeah, this isn't a real argument. I am just having fun now).
I think I see now where we disagree. You're willing to attribute stuff to Steve based on what you think he's capable of given what we know of his personality. I'm simply judging them based off what they've already been through. While it's true that Steve probably would have acted in the same way Thor did given the same situation, I'm not even going through that scenario. I'm simply judging them on what challenges they've already gone through and what they've sacrificed to overcome them.
As for Thor's hair, well, Thor gave up his hair easier than Cap gave up his virginity. 😛
Originally posted by FrothByte
I think I see now where we disagree. You're willing to attribute stuff to Steve based on what you [b]think he's capable of given what we know of his personality. I'm simply judging them based off what they've already been through. While it's true that Steve probably would have acted in the same way Thor did given the same situation, I'm not even going through that scenario. I'm simply judging them on what challenges they've already gone through and what they've sacrificed to overcome them.As for Thor's hair, well, Thor gave up his hair easier than Cap gave up his virginity. 😛 [/B]
Eh, well, I personally feel that there is enough evidence to justify it. Take Civil War. Cap was willing to sacrifice multiple friendships, being a free man in his country, and potentially his life (depending on how things played out), and turn himself into a fugitive, because he believed that his actions were towards the greater good. Yes, Bucky played a part, but it was only a part. Steve believed that the Accords were going to do more harm than good in the long run, and stood firm despite having most of the world governments against him, and despite knowing what could happen and what he knew he would lose in doing so. So, I would say that basically sacrificing his standing with nearly all the global powers (barring, like, Wakanda) on Earth, and therefore losing their support (as well as anyone in the same camp as them) for the sake of doing what he thought was right is a pretty big sacrifice.
I mean just as Cap hasn't been tested in the way Thor has, Thor hasn't in the same way Cap has. Could Thor make a decision that completely alienated some of his closest friends (Sif, the Warriors Three etc.), and turn them into enemies? Or Asgard itself against him (because wiping out the planet but saving the people is not the same as making a decision that actively turns them hostile towards you)? Assuming it was for the greater good, I believe he could, even if he hasn't been put in that specific situation. So, I am willing to give leeway in both directions, based on their overall character.
I think there's something implied in Age of Ultron as to why Cap was only able to budge the hammer.
When they confront Ultron on Klaue's ship Ultron says "Captain America, God's righteous man, pretending you could live without war. I can't physically throw up in my mouth but..." And then when Wanda uses her mindhax on him he sees the war ending but all he can still see is war everywhere even at a party. We even see some of that where after Captain America is woken from the ice in the Avengers he's dealing with his shit via punching bag.
With Thor by contrast it was him overcoming this type of character flaw that lead to him being worthy of Mjolnir. It was Thor's longing for war that got him banished to begin with, and it was him realizing that character flaw that lead him to adopt the humility to sacrifice himself to the destroyer and regain the hammer. This is shown again in the avengers where he says "In my youth I courted war" expressing regret for that old tendency.
Just a thematic and character difference between the two that could add something interesting to the discussion.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I think there's something implied in Age of Ultron as to why Cap was only able to budge the hammer.When they confront Ultron on Klaue's ship Ultron says "Captain America, God's righteous man, pretending you could live without war. I can't physically throw up in my mouth but..." And then when Wanda uses her mindhax on him he sees the war ending but all he can still see is war everywhere even at a party. We even see some of that where after Captain America is woken from the ice in the Avengers he's dealing with his shit via punching bag.
With Thor by contrast it was him overcoming this type of character flaw that lead to him being worthy of Mjolnir. It was Thor's longing for war that got him banished to begin with, and it was him realizing that character flaw that lead him to adopt the humility to sacrifice himself to the destroyer and regain the hammer. This is shown again in the avengers where he says "In my youth I courted war" expressing regret for that old tendency.
Just a thematic and character difference between the two that could add something interesting to the discussion.
I actually said this on page 2 already, Slowpoke. 😛
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
According to Mjolnir, Thor.
Spoiler:
Just messing with you. You raise a fair point.
Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm glad that you finally admitted to lying about Loki trying to destroy all of humanity. Now if you'll only admit to lying about leaving out that Carter and the doctor, two people that cap cares about were also present.Why do you lie so much?
I'm still not sure.
Lying is done intentionally to deceive. How can I deceive anyone when the movie is available to watch for all?
You are just plain dumb.
You don't know what lying is.
You tell others to back up claims when you never do. You claim others are lying with 0 proof.
Originally posted by Silent Master
People being able to discover you lied by watching the movie doesn't mean you didn't lie. It means you were dumb enough to lie about something that was easy to fact-check.
This post addresses my post in no way. Try again.
Originally posted by h1a8
I'm still not sure.
Lying is done intentionally to deceive. How can I deceive anyone when the movie is available to watch for all?
You are just plain dumb.
You don't know what lying is.
You tell others to back up claims when you never do. You claim others are lying with 0 proof.
Basically prove your claim. Prove that I lied.
Originally posted by h1a8Irony.
I'm still not sure.
Lying is done intentionally to deceive. How can I deceive anyone when the movie is available to watch for all?
You are just plain dumb.
You don't know what lying is.
You tell others to back up claims when you never do. You claim others are lying with 0 proof.
Originally posted by Silent Master
BTW, lie number 3My post most certainly did address your post.
No it didn't. It had 0 to do with what I said.
You don't even know the definition of a lie.
Originally posted by h1a8
Lying is done intentionally to deceive. How can I deceive anyone when the movie is available to watch for all?
You are just plain dumb.
You don't know what lying is.
You tell others to back up claims when you never do. You claim others are lying with 0 proof.