Who is more heroic: Captain America vs. Thor

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Why does Thor have more to lose? Steve has plenty of friends, loved ones etc. as well as an entire planet he calls home and feels at least partly responsible for.

Not to mention external circumstances don't necessarily reflect level of heroics. Is a homeless guy jumping on a grenade less heroic than a billionaire jumping on a grenade?

As I mentioned already to Josh, if we compare Cap's sacrifice in the plane, he was going to die one way or the other. If he didn't do anything, the plane was going to New York and the bomb was going to explode. He instead chose to die by crashing it in the sea. So he would have died either way, he just chose the death that would save lives.

That's different from Thor, who actually had a chance to escape if he wanted to. But he chose to confront death.

As for external circumstances, let me ask you this:
A woman is in need of a heart transplant. There were only 2 men willing to give up their lives in order to donate the heart. Man A is a convicted criminal on death row. He decided to sacrifice his life so he could donate his heart. Man B is a middle-income guy who just got promoted to manager, has a wife and 2 kids. He also decided to sacrifice his life to donate his heart to the woman in need.

Are you going to tell me both men made the exact same amount of self-sacrifice?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Don't see how one can be seen as being more self-sacrificing than the other when both have shown a willingness to give up their lives for the greater good on more than one occasion. IMO, you can't really go much further than that.

Also, lol at H1 talking about credibility and verifying things, when he has a long history of using personal claims and anecdotes in arguments, and then refusing to verify them with evidence when called out.

Yea, I thought it was going to take much longer to get h1 to say that people shouldn't take other people's word in a debate. it's like he forgot that demanding people believe him is his go to tactic.

Originally posted by FrothByte
As I mentioned already to Josh, if we compare Cap's sacrifice in the plane, he was going to die one way or the other. If he didn't do anything, the plane was going to New York and the bomb was going to explode. He instead chose to die by crashing it in the sea. So he would have died either way, he just chose the death that would save lives.

That's different from Thor, who actually had a chance to escape if he wanted to. But he chose to confront death.

As for external circumstances, let me ask you this:
A woman is in need of a heart transplant. There were only 2 men willing to give up their lives in order to donate the heart. Man A is a convicted criminal on death row. He decided to sacrifice his life so he could donate his heart. Man B is a middle-income guy who just got promoted to manager, has a wife and 2 kids. He also decided to sacrifice his life to donate his heart to the woman in need.

Are you going to tell me both men made the exact same amount of self-sacrifice?

I'm not talking about a single instance. Both have shown a willingness to put themselves in mortal danger irrespective of the situation with loved ones etc. at the time (whether Thor or Cap has everything or nothing at any given time, it doesn't change their character or willingness to do what is necessary). And that, to me, is heroics. They don't need to think about those kinds of things before acting in a self-sacrificing manner. They just jump in and put themselves in harm's way, because that is who they are as people. Because, quite frankly, in 90% of those situations, if they had to stop to weigh the pros and cons, they'd likely end up being too late. So, I guess it comes down to an interpretation of heroics.

Though speaking of the TFA plane bit, I always found the HISHE version entertaining:

YouTube video

But to give another example for Cap. In TFA, during the boot camp grenade scene. Based on what we see, Steve spent most of his adult life trying to join the army, even breaking the law by trying to enlist in multiple different locations. And then he finally got his shot. So, from his perspective, he was finally reaching his life's ambition. Yet when the dummy grenade dropped, he wasn't thinking about that, or his future. He wasn't cowering or running away, taking his chances, like all the others were. He saw a threat, and immediately placed his own body between that threat and everyone else. Now, obviously, it wasn't a real grenade, but he had no idea of knowing that at the time. That's what I am getting at. Both he and Thor, when faced with those kinds of situations, tend to act heroic without needing to check what they might lose in the process.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Thor is more self- sacrificing than Cap. If you can't prove me wrong then it means you concede.

Your life is the most anyone can lose. If you are dead then you have nothing. You are nothing.

There is no such thing as sacrificing your life when you have more to lose.
I know homeless people with nothing that value their life far more than a rich person with plenty of family and friends.

Bottom line: If Cap were in Thor’s shoes, he would have done every heroic thing Thor did. But if Thor was in Cap’s shoes then he wouldn’t have done the grenade feat. Also Cap wouldn’t have tried to kill someone for trying to reason with him.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If you insist.

You h1 are a liar and everyone will continue to call you a liar until you back up your claim.

Calling me a liar doesn’t prove that I am. So you are welcome to call me one anytime. It doesn’t phase me. I know the truth.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
But to give another example for Cap. In TFA, during the boot camp grenade scene. Based on what we see, Steve spent most of his adult life trying to join the army, even breaking the law by trying to enlist in multiple different locations. And then he finally got his shot. So, from his perspective, he was finally reaching his life's ambition. Yet when the dummy grenade dropped, he wasn't thinking about that, or his future. He wasn't cowering or running away, taking his chances, like all the others were. He saw a threat, and immediately placed his own body between that threat and everyone else. Now, obviously, it wasn't a real grenade, but he had no idea of knowing that at the time. That's what I am getting at. Both he and Thor, when faced with those kinds of situations, tend to act heroic without needing to check what they might lose in the process.

Thor would have never did such a thing.
Thor’s attempt to kill Cap takes away from his heroic points.

You yourself stated that people shouldn't believe anything someone says unless proof has been provided.

You have provided no proof to back up your claims; thus by your own standards, you're a liar.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. You keep dodging and whimping
2. You are not debating
3. I already post my argument to which you failed to counter.
4. You ran from the debate

Conclusion: You lost.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
So lets resume a bit.

You are a racist, gay, stupid, clown, troll, and now a cheerleader too!? OMG you are unique! 😂

Originally posted by FrothByte
As I mentioned already to Josh, if we compare Cap's sacrifice in the plane, he was going to die one way or the other. If he didn't do anything, the plane was going to New York and the bomb was going to explode. He instead chose to die by crashing it in the sea. So he would have died either way, he just chose the death that would save lives.

That's different from Thor, who actually had a chance to escape if he wanted to. But he chose to confront death.

As for external circumstances, let me ask you this:
A woman is in need of a heart transplant. There were only 2 men willing to give up their lives in order to donate the heart. Man A is a convicted criminal on death row. He decided to sacrifice his life so he could donate his heart. Man B is a middle-income guy who just got promoted to manager, has a wife and 2 kids. He also decided to sacrifice his life to donate his heart to the woman in need.

Are you going to tell me both men made the exact same amount of self-sacrifice?

Your analogue stinks of bias!

Again you want to claim yourself Neutral in an attempt to run from the debate and yet you discredit and want to dimerrit Cap's feats! Be a man and just admit you suppot Thor!

P.D: You forgot the fact that in such an scenario Man B would be sacrificing himself for his loved one (Jane who is endanger) while Man B wouldn't!

BIASED!

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
But to give another example for Cap. In TFA, during the boot camp grenade scene. Based on what we see, Steve spent most of his adult life trying to join the army, even breaking the law by trying to enlist in multiple different locations. And then he finally got his shot. So, from his perspective, he was finally reaching his life's ambition. Yet when the dummy grenade dropped, he wasn't thinking about that, or his future. He wasn't cowering or running away, taking his chances, like all the others were. He saw a threat, and immediately placed his own body between that threat and everyone else. Now, obviously, it wasn't a real grenade, but he had no idea of knowing that at the time. That's what I am getting at. Both he and Thor, when faced with those kinds of situations, tend to act heroic without needing to check what they might lose in the process.

Both have plenty of heroic feats to back them I agree.

But if we compare them and analyze their backgrounds it's evident Captain America has achieved more.

But well other's opinion is respected.

Let me see, you are playing neutral too eh?

Originally posted by Silent Master
You yourself stated that people shouldn't believe anything someone says unless proof has been provided.

You have provided no proof to back up your claims; thus by your own standards, you're a liar.

You are the king of the strawman.
If you are so correct then why do you feel the need to change people's words in such a way that it alters their argument? Why not just give a word for word rephrase? Or just address the argument without altering the words of the argument?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'm not talking about a single instance. Both have shown a willingness to put themselves in mortal danger irrespective of the situation with loved ones etc. at the time (whether Thor or Cap has everything or nothing at any given time, it doesn't change their character or willingness to do what is necessary). And that, to me, is heroics. They don't need to think about those kinds of things before acting in a self-sacrificing manner. They just jump in and put themselves in harm's way, because that is who they are as people. Because, quite frankly, in 90% of those situations, if they had to stop to weigh the pros and cons, they'd likely end up being too late. So, I guess it comes down to an interpretation of heroics.

Though speaking of the TFA plane bit, I always found the HISHE version entertaining:

YouTube video

Just to clarify my stance, so we don't end up with a misunderstanding, I am not saying Thor is more heroic than Cap. I think they are both equally heroic, with each one excelling in different aspects of heroism. In the self-sacrifice category, I believe Thor has the advantage. Not because Cap hasn't showcased self-sacrifice (I'm not trying to diss his efforts) but because Thor has

1. More instances of self-sacrifice
- Cap has 2 instances that I count: The plane and grenade scenes. Thor has his death via Destroyer, death via Neutron star, destruction of the Bifrost, destruction of Asgard

2. More choices to escape his fate
- as I said earlier, in the plane scene Cap was going to die one way or another. In his grenade scene, he could have chosen life (i.e. ran away) but then he wasn't exactly a fast runner so it's unclear whether he could have escaped the blast radius. In all of Thor's self-sacrifices, he was never in a no-win situation quite like Steve's plane situation. He was sometimes in questionable survival situations like Steve's grenade scene but usually he always had to make a conscious choice to sacrifice something dear to him for the greater good.

3. Had to sacrifice more than just his life
- When Cap sacrificed his life (either grenade or plane) he was simply sacrificing his life. Granted, the US army would have lost a good soldier (especially when he became Captain America) but the loss was going to be isolated to him. When Thor sacrificed himself, it wasn't just his life that was going to be lost but also the future king of Asgard. That would leave Asgard with no proper ruler after Odin dies, condemning his people and government to turmoil and to be left under Loki's governance. Thor has also had to sacrifice his planet and his people's means of travel, etc. Its even worse in IW because he had to sacrifice his life even when he was pretty much the only one left who could lead his surviving people.

4. Had to make harder decisions
- as I said in #3, Cap is very willing to sacrifice his life, but when other aspects come into play, he's unwilling to make truly hard choices. During the events of Civil War, even though I was team Cap all the way, I have to admit that the way he handled the Accords and Bucky's involvement was very unheroic and quite selfish (in a sense that he did what he wanted to do and didn't put much effort into trying to coordinate with Tony to find the best solution). In IW he was completely unwilling to sacrifice Vision even if that meant saving half the universe. In comparison, Thor had to choose between letting an entire race get exterminated (Frost giants) or destroying his kingdom's means of travel, which would mean they can't protect the 9 realms, which was also his means to travel and visit Jane. He had to choose between letting Ragnarok happen or continue to try and fight Hela. These are decisions that Cap never had to face and never had to make the same kind of sacrifices for.

Now if the question was, who was more humble, had more aversion to violence, had better leadership skills, I'd be voting for Cap all the way. But when it comes to self-sacrifice and overcoming hardships, Thor wins those categories.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

P.D: You forgot the fact that in such an scenario Man B would be sacrificing himself for his loved one (Jane who is endanger) while Man B wouldn't!

BIASED!

That made no sense whatsoever.

Anyway, please post the scene where Jane was specifically in danger which made Thor sacrifice his life for her.

Originally posted by FrothByte
That made no sense whatsoever.

Anyway, please post the scene where Jane was specifically in danger which made Thor sacrifice his life for her.

Concession accepted. You decided to focus solely on Thor's Sacrifice and obmitted the rest of the scene.

👆 keep the bias up.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Just to clarify my stance, so we don't end up with a misunderstanding, I am [b]not saying Thor is more heroic than Cap. I think they are both equally heroic, with each one excelling in different aspects of heroism. In the self-sacrifice category, I believe Thor has the advantage. Not because Cap hasn't showcased self-sacrifice (I'm not trying to diss his efforts) but because Thor has

1. More instances of self-sacrifice
- Cap has 2 instances that I count: The plane and grenade scenes. Thor has his death via Destroyer, death via Neutron star, destruction of the Bifrost, destruction of Asgard

2. More choices to escape his fate
- as I said earlier, in the plane scene Cap was going to die one way or another. In his grenade scene, he could have chosen life (i.e. ran away) but then he wasn't exactly a fast runner so it's unclear whether he could have escaped the blast radius. In all of Thor's self-sacrifices, he was never in a no-win situation quite like Steve's plane situation. He was sometimes in questionable survival situations like Steve's grenade scene but usually he always had to make a conscious choice to sacrifice something dear to him for the greater good.

3. Had to sacrifice more than just his life
- When Cap sacrificed his life (either grenade or plane) he was simply sacrificing his life. Granted, the US army would have lost a good soldier (especially when he became Captain America) but the loss was going to be isolated to him. When Thor sacrificed himself, it wasn't just his life that was going to be lost but also the future king of Asgard. That would leave Asgard with no proper ruler after Odin dies, condemning his people and government to turmoil and to be left under Loki's governance. Thor has also had to sacrifice his planet and his people's means of travel, etc. Its even worse in IW because he had to sacrifice his life even when he was pretty much the only one left who could lead his surviving people.

4. Had to make harder decisions
- as I said in #3, Cap is very willing to sacrifice his life, but when other aspects come into play, he's unwilling to make truly hard choices. During the events of Civil War, even though I was team Cap all the way, I have to admit that the way he handled the Accords and Bucky's involvement was very unheroic and quite selfish (in a sense that he did what he wanted to do and didn't put much effort into trying to coordinate with Tony to find the best solution). In IW he was completely unwilling to sacrifice Vision even if that meant saving half the universe. In comparison, Thor had to choose between letting an entire race get exterminated (Frost giants) or destroying his kingdom's means of travel, which would mean they can't protect the 9 realms, which was also his means to travel and visit Jane. He had to choose between letting Ragnarok happen or continue to try and fight Hela. These are decisions that Cap never had to face and never had to make the same kind of sacrifices for.

Now if the question was, who was more humble, had more aversion to violence, had better leadership skills, I'd be voting for Cap all the way. But when it comes to self-sacrifice and overcoming hardships, Thor wins those categories. [/B]

And yet you are being biased. You are anything but neutral!

You are clearly leaning towards Thor side and pathetically claiming to be neutral!

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Concession accepted. You decided to focus solely on Thor's Sacrifice and obmitted the rest of the scene.

👆 keep the bias up.

Still waiting for you to post the scene where Jane was supposedly in danger. Or are you mature enough to admit you were mistaken?

And yet you are being biased. You are anything but neutral!

You are clearly leaning towards Thor side and pathetically claiming to be neutral!

I am not arguing for Cap in this thread because no one is lowballing Cap to make Thor look good, so no need to defend Cap. You, on the other hand, are lowballing Thor (and exaggerating Cap's qualities) just to make your character shine brighter. That's why I'm arguing against your stance and taking Thor's side against you.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Still waiting for you to post the scene where Jane was supposedly in danger. Or are you mature enough to admit you were mistaken?

I am not arguing for Cap in this thread because no one is lowballing Cap to make Thor look good, so no need to defend Cap. You, on the other hand, are lowballing Thor (and exaggerating Cap's qualities) just to make your character shine brighter. That's why I'm arguing against your stance and taking Thor's side against you.

Your ignorance is astonishing Froth...Or should I say, your pathetic attempts of playing ignorante

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UvCZqQbvqc

Minute 2:58. Thor's girlfriend and friends are what?...10m behind him? The Destroyer could without an issue attacked them. They were clearly in danger.

Following the Dialogue of the scene:

Thor -

... whatever I have done to lead you to do this...I am trully sorry, but these people are innocent. Taking their lives will gain you nothing...

Thor confirms he is worried about their lives

Happy boy!? Now stop playing ignorant! You are irritating when you do so!

Originally posted by FrothByte
Still waiting for you to post the scene where Jane was supposedly in danger. Or are you mature enough to admit you were mistaken?

I am not arguing for Cap in this thread because no one is lowballing Cap to make Thor look good, so no need to defend Cap. You, on the other hand, are lowballing Thor (and exaggerating Cap's qualities) just to make your character shine brighter. That's why I'm arguing against your stance and taking Thor's side against you.

I am not lowballing Thor. Am being objective here, and am supporting Cap for he is the more heroic of the two!

It's called being objective boy.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander

It's called being objective boy.

So be an objective chap and back up your opinions with feats. Show me a clip where Thor sacrificed his life because Jane was in imminent danger.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So be an objective chap and back up your opinions with feats. Show me a clip where Thor sacrificed his life because Jane was in imminent danger.

BAHAHAHA! I already did!!! WTH!!

And remind yourself Froth that it is you the one who's been lacking evidence here.