Originally posted by xJLxKing
Stop it! I'm sure Carver read Flash Rebirth #1-3. He would never try and twist what happens on panel to suit his agenda. That's unlike Carver
He's read each issue 79 times and got personal insight and confirmation from Johns himself. He told me do, and I believe Carter, he's an honest and honorable chap.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman "couldn't quite crack the top 3" can mean he's right behind them or he's the closest behind the top 3 who are on another level. The latter is more likely based on what happened. For example: Zum was really fast, fast enough to give Wally serious trouble. Until he tapped into the SF further and could punch him a thousand times before he blinks.
Except he is. Reverse Flash has himself said Superman rivals his own speed.
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f858c922f4728d531f1a676e61138ee5-c
But hey, let's only count what favors Flash, shall we?
I've seen Electric Superman move so fast Wally could barely see him. Move so fast Wally could only watch helplessly.
Zum isn't Superman. Morrison had Superman AND the Flash go at absolute speeds to reach Darkseid's singularity.
[/QUOTE]Those are your examples? I've seen Flash getting to a nuclear weapon that Superman had trouble catching and evacuating the entire city's population. Move so fast that CoIE heroes couldn't perceive him including Superman etc. During the Waid era, when the SF was elaborated on, it went from being competitive, to somewhat competitive, to its only ever competitive because Flash lets it happen. The difference in speed is astronomical, and it boggles my mind how you can bring up Flash war for evidence.
"I couldn't....catch up to them. They're...going too fast. "
Except Flashes had a huge head start and Superman still almost caught them with no buildup whatsoever.
The Flashes proceeded to run casually and not even notice his presence. They soon after go even FASTER to break into the Speed-Force.
So never ran a race, have you?
A few pages later, Superman is one-shot knocked out by Hunter before he can even react:
Who cheapshotted the whole team while he was powered up by two different forces?
Kal L straight up oneshotted Zoom. Under Johns no less.
Even Bizarro has matched Zoom going as fast as he could.
Btw, in first scan, that was Barry's first ever encounter with Supeeman. He didn't even know he had noticeable super speed.
Neither did Superman.
The last scan you posted is just confusing. Flash has gotten so MUCH faster than that, astronomically faster than Superman's own power increase. The second scan you posted? I'm assuming you didn't read the mini or? I didn't respond in the character ownage thread, because that's not the context thread. Did you find those scans on google or something? SMH. Let's make a Luke Cage vs Superman thread and post scans of Superman who was stronger than a locomotive as evidence.
FYI, all the past Superman and Flash races were addressed in Post-Crisis. How do they historically make sense given the levels Flash has reached? They don't, hence:
And yet, Flash fans and writer have so much inferiority complex towards Superman. I mean really, you're worse than Carver when it comes to Superman.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
[B]Graviton wins 8/10 times.That doesn't mean Graviton would be unable to affect Flash or gravity has no limitations on him. SF allows him to counter the laws of physics, but it does not mean he is beyond them, he isn't. Especially in that era (I don't remember if that scan is before he transcended or before but it's close to the time period).
Flash being able to KO Graviton before he can react in a picosecond is only a little less likely than Graviton turning the Flash into paste instantly with his gravity.
I swear, some of these scenarios/claims...they are the exact opposite of what someone who consistently reads the Flash would actually claim.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I have read every Flash appearance since Barry's death in CoIE. I was defending Wally before being a Flash fan was popular.This isn't about PIS. This is about actually knowing the characters? For example, I am assuming this Barry (The current Flash), speed stealing and SF manipulation is something Wally is far more proficient at. It does say PC (Which means Wally technically, but who knows.)
Or people saying he can run in space or air. I'm mad at myself for making that argument a decade ago. In retrospect, I was being too zealous. There are maybe 2/3 scenes that imply that he can, and about 200 that he can't?
Regardless, you can think of them as self-imposed limitations, mental blocks if you will. Or the limits of the SF. For every 1 high end feat, there is literally 5 more from the same writer that disproves the notion he wins easily, or even that he wins at all.
Graviton is especially a rogue that would give Flash hell due to the nature of his power set. I think this would be an interesting match up. Maybe speed blitz for the initial win if Iris or Linda is in mortal danger. Otherwise Graviton imo.
I'm guessing averages of a character work only if the said character isn't against Superman in a thread.
I should put Flash against Thor or Hulk. Let's see your reaction then, huh?
Flash fact: Superman fans are a cowardly and sensitive lot. [/B]
Nice bait. Guess what, this very same writer had Superman casually match and even exceed Barry going "as fast as he can".
Superman actually won the race across the world.
Guess Superman is unmatched when flying after all.
Originally posted by Delta1938At least we got that settled. I'm sure Carver will be back here later with another scan. Which of course he will have gained personal insight on.
He's read each issue 79 times and got personal insight and confirmation from Johns himself. He told me do, and I believe Carter, he's an honest and honorable chap.
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I also want to give a heads up that under the current flash writer, the Flash's family/group seem to help each other generate speed. That's kinda been the themeSo if we are going to use the most recent "race", we should take into consideration that they somewhat "amped" each other.
This the only example? And there anything with more detail? If they truly are amped by being around each other, then damn.
Originally posted by Stoic
So is Superman faster than the Flash despite Flash always saying that he is the fastest man alive? I saw Abhi explaining the latest issue of Flash, which I was going to bring up. Superman did say that he couldn't catch Barry and Wally, because they were moving too fast, so I'm confused.
But it seems a few members, Rage, Carver..etc are trying to imply that Superman's speed is far inferior to either Barry or Wally. The try to site the most recent Flash issue (#49). As Superman stated that they are too fast for him. Again, a few members are trying to put a lot of emphasis on the word, TOO; as if Superman is saying they are so much faster.
Now, when people like Abhi try to site other events that pitted Superman vs Flash, they are either dismissed or once again, an emphasis is put into a specific word. You also have Carver trying to site Flash Rebirth #3 despite the fact that Flash was amped and Superman was running.
All in all, Superman is slower, but he the difference is not as vast as Thor and Wolverine. They are peers; we know this not just by their history of racing, but DC even released a "statement" that Superman is ranked #4 in running speed, behind Wally, Barry, and Reverse Flash.
Why is this such a hard concept to understand?
Yes Barry and Wally are faster than Kal in a straight up race!
But in a fight, Kal doesn’t need to run as fast as Barry or Wally. All he needs are his reflexes been able to match them. It’s been showned multiple times, Kal can amps his reaction speed to the level of any of the Flash’s family.
Here’s a better example. Bolt Vs Ali. Bolt is faster in a straight race, yet Ali has the reflexes to match him in a fisticuffs becuse Ali reflexes are that fast.
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No one is really arguing Superman is faster than Flash (Barry and/or Wally).But it seems a few members, Rage, Carver..etc are trying to imply that Superman's speed is far inferior to either Barry or Wally. The try to site the most recent Flash issue (#49). As Superman stated that they are too fast for him. Again, a few members are trying to put a lot of emphasis on the word, TOO; as if Superman is saying they are so much faster.
Now, when people like Abhi try to site other events that pitted Superman vs Flash, they are either dismissed or once again, an emphasis is put into a specific word. You also have Carver trying to site Flash Rebirth #3 despite the fact that Flash was amped and Superman was running.
All in all, Superman is slower, but he the difference is not as vast as Thor and Wolverine. They are peers; we know this not just by their history of racing, but DC even released a "statement" that Superman is ranked #4 in running speed, behind Wally, Barry, and Reverse Flash.
You've cited Rage arguing the most recent showing to dismiss prior, while arguing prior showings to dismiss the most recent of Mjolnir destroyed by the Sun. I figured I'd give something for carvy. He dismisses Superman breaking Soulfire Darkseid in half, despite The Source/Anti-Life Entity (merged back into one) couldn't scratch him, but dismisses DCnU Superman ripping DCnU Doomsday in half, because Wonder Woman's sword pierced him (ignoring it's not a normal sword, since it can literally cut atoms and cause nuclear explosions) but if his logic was consistent, he'd dismiss Wonder Woman piercing him because he destroyed the sword and kept fighting, so it didn't bother him.
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No one is really arguing Superman is faster than Flash (Barry and/or Wally).But it seems a few members, Rage, Carver..etc are trying to imply that Superman's speed is far inferior to either Barry or Wally. The try to site the most recent Flash issue (#49). As Superman stated that they are too fast for him. Again, a few members are trying to put a lot of emphasis on the word, TOO; as if Superman is saying they are so much faster.
Now, when people like Abhi try to site other events that pitted Superman vs Flash, they are either dismissed or once again, an emphasis is put into a specific word. You also have Carver trying to site Flash Rebirth #3 despite the fact that Flash was amped and Superman was running.
All in all, Superman is slower, but he the difference is not as vast as Thor and Wolverine. They are peers; we know this not just by their history of racing, but DC even released a "statement" that Superman is ranked #4 in running speed, behind Wally, Barry, and Reverse Flash.
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Ultimately, most of the flashes should be able to defeat Superman. Speed does in fact kill. They are able to land IMP hits and be considerable faster than Superman. I also don't see how Superman can stop the speed stealing.
Barry, Wally, and Bart have all shown that they can steel or lend speed.
Reverse Flash/Zoom/Prof Zoom all have shown they are faster than Superman.
Superman can take some win but not majority. That's just my opinion of course
Originally posted by panthergod
Superman can tank an IMP. Easily.Flashes have one ability that MIGHT be able to take out Superman.. Superman has... everything else.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Between their superior speed, reflexes, and ability to vibrate through attacks, he shouldn't ever hit a serious Flash like Wally. Especially since they're faster than his long range attacks.
meh, i don't think the vibrations would be very effective. i don't think the speed disparity is THAT major. the flashes would go physical or he could even possibly counter the vibrations with his own. they would need to physically beat him and i don't see that happening very often. the speed steal though? no real counter for that.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Speed steal has never beaten Superman. He isn't inertia with Zoom's powers. He generates his own speed and Flash has never been able to strip speed completely from such a character.
huh. we saw jay steal his speed, and jay wasn't nearly as good with the SF as some of the guys here. we've seen the kinetic energy of a PLANET stolen, and surtur, and black adam....along with superman himself. far MORE than sufficient proof to suggest they could drain him completely. to say they haven't taken the speed of someone on his level is both wrong and a rather poor defense abhi.
Originally posted by leonidas
meh, i don't think the vibrations would be very effective. i don't think the speed disparity is THAT major. the flashes would go physical or he could even possibly counter the vibrations with his own. they would need to physically beat him and i don't see that happening very often. the speed steal though? no real counter for that.huh. we saw jay steal his speed, and jay wasn't nearly as good with the SF as some of the guys here. we've seen the kinetic energy of a PLANET stolen, and surtur, and black adam....along with superman himself. far MORE than sufficient proof to suggest they could drain him completely. to say they haven't taken the speed of someone on his level is both wrong and a rather poor defense abhi.
Nome of those characters were actually completely drained of speed.
of course not--he felt horrible draining inertia--but that doesn't mean he couldn't have continued to drain them, and like i said, jay wasn't as good as some of these others. i think it's an ability that can be countered by....VERY few. without it, i can't see a flash beating superman in a fight. /shrug
Originally posted by leonidas
of course not--he felt horrible draining inertia--but that doesn't mean he couldn't have continued to drain them, and like i said, jay wasn't as good as some of these others. i think it's an ability that can be countered by....VERY few. without it, i can't see a flash beating superman in a fight. /shrug
You cant see a Flash beating Superman? I'll help you see it...
