Why is prostitution illegal?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
lot lizards

Originally posted by Beniboybling
On the other hand, I imagine being abused by your employers, your clients etc. or being the victim of human trafficking could make your job quite stressful. Weirdly enough, there might even been a link between this and drug abuse 🙁

There are strong connections between prositution and mental health issues, substance abuse, physical abuse, child abuse, and exploitation, which makes me hesitant to support its legalisation, and I don't think it should be encouraged. Better to decriminalise it for the women involved and put money into schemes helping women to get more rewarding and less harmful jobs.

How much of this comes from it being illegal though?

Decriminilazing it for the worker means they avoid arrest, but still face all the same problems unfortunately. The clients, out of fear of punishment, will go underground, which means the workers must follow.

If you mean the New Zealand style of decriminalization, then I'm mostly in agreement though. It's functionally the same as legalizing it, and it hasn't turned into the nightmare scenario some folks have of every kid growing up dreaming about being a prostitute. It's equated to more safety and agency for the ones involved though, as reported by the workers themselves. Interestingly, male sex workers here are more likely to have money stolen than women. I wonder what causes that?
https://www.otago.ac.nz/christchurch/otago018607.pdf

While this was just Nevada, 84% of workers report feeling safe at work. There's no evidence of sex trafficking either. They have security and policemen ready and willing to help them because they aren't be treated like criminal sub-humans.
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/nevadas-legal-brothels-make-workers-feel-safer

I'm open to other arguments, but I really see no other option being superior to full blown legalization. The only way to eliminate the shadows is to bring this whole industry into the light. There's still problems to address, but it's a damn sight better than prohibition. That failed with alcohol. It's failing with drugs. It's failed with prostitution.

A neat TEDTalk from a sex worker, if anyone is interested on an inside perspective of this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-n852sv3Ehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-n852sv3E

There's others out there too, some aimed at the anti-sex work feminists(who are also part of the problem, not just Trump as much as I criticize him) too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi_OwpNndo8

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'd like to point out that this is definitely a double entendre considering the thread topic. 👆

Originally posted by Robtard
There's such a broad aspect of prostitution and the levels of danger and stress it can bring. The high-end call girl who is having a few dates a month because her executive clients pay her $5,000.00 a night to have dinner and then f--k in a 5-star hotel isn't comparable to the sex-worker who is blowing guys in their cars for $20.00 a pop and is far more at risk from STDs and a nutjob looking to hurt a woman.

Prostitution should be legal though and it should be regulated. I personally like the idea of the sex houses like the Bunny Ranch in Nevada. The women are tested regularly, they're required to use condoms, they're in a safe environment, they have list of what they will and won't do so there's no confusion from the client's expectation, the clients are known (show ID) so they're far less likely to attack or act a fool etc.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I don't think it's particularly emotionally healthy for either person involved, I think it's a very risky and dangerous line of work, I don't think it is a moral good to reduce people to sexual objects, and I don't think it's good for the culture of civilization to undermine the institution of monogamy.

I like your outlook overall though, as again, I think treating folks like people prevents most of this. I disagree on the monogamy thing, but that's for another thread. You're a Jordan Peterson fan I take it?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
There are strong connections between prositution and mental health issues, substance abuse, physical abuse, child abuse, and exploitation, which makes me hesitant to support its legalisation, and I don't think it should be encouraged. Better to decriminalise it for the women involved and put money into schemes helping women to get more rewarding and less harmful jobs.

Originally posted by StyleTime
How much of this comes from it being illegal though?

Decriminilazing it for the worker means they avoid arrest, but still face all the same problems unfortunately. The clients, out of fear of punishment, will go underground, which means the workers must follow.

If you mean the New Zealand style of decriminalization, then I'm mostly in agreement though. It's functionally the same as legalizing it, and it hasn't turned into the nightmare scenario some folks have of every kid growing up dreaming about being a prostitute. It's equated to more safety and agency for the ones involved though, as reported by the workers themselves. Interestingly, male sex workers here are more likely to have money stolen than women. I wonder what causes that?
https://www.otago.ac.nz/christchurch/otago018607.pdf

While this was just Nevada, 84% of workers report feeling safe at work. There's no evidence of sex trafficking either. They have security and policemen ready and willing to help them because they aren't be treated like criminal sub-humans.
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/nevadas-legal-brothels-make-workers-feel-safer

I'm open to other arguments, but I really see no other option being superior to full blown legalization. The only way to eliminate the shadows is to bring this whole industry into the light. There's still problems to address, but it's a damn sight better than prohibition. That failed with alcohol. It's failing with drugs. It's failed with prostitution.

A neat TEDTalk from a sex worker, if anyone is interested on an inside perspective of this issue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-n852sv3Ehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-n852sv3E

There's others out there too, some aimed at the anti-sex work feminists(who are also part of the problem, not just Trump as much as I criticize him) too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hi_OwpNndo8

More than that, few women enter into prostitution willingly, they do it because of financial issues, mental health issues, as a result of dysfunctional families, homelessness, or indeed have already developed a substance abuse problem already - they are in short, quite often victims in need of support, and becoming a prostitute serves to worsen their condition, even if it provides them with economic means.

The war on drugs have been successfully tackled in other countries through a therapeutic approach, i.e. decriminalising class a substances and treating addicts, not by legalising it wholesale and teaching people safe practice. There is no safe practice when it comes to taking heroin, cocaine etc. and the end goal was to get people off these substances. If prostitution is decriminalised or legalised I think it has to come with health and support services that help women get out of the industry, rather than simply permissing its perpetuation as "just another job."

Originally posted by StyleTime
Do you think our cultural attitudes towards sex might play into that though? It's entirely possible to acknowledge someone's humanity and still desire/engage in casual/transactional sex with them. I think reducing someone to only a sex object comes from stigmatizing the occupation so deeply that society only sees the workers in that manner.

I like your outlook overall though, as again, I think treating folks like people prevents most of this. I disagree on the monogamy thing, but that's for another thread. You're a Jordan Peterson fan I take it?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I would say to a significant degree its intrinsic to prositution itself. Multiple studies have shown that pervasive drug abuse among prostitutes is a result of a need to cope with the physical and mental challenges of the job, selling your body as a product exposes you to sexual violence and debasement and can create self-esteem issues and distress, all of which conflates to worsened mental health - its possible for these problems can be improved by legalisation but they can't eradicated.

More than that, few women enter into prostitution willingly, they do it because of financial issues, mental health issues, as a result of dysfunctional families, homelessness, or indeed have already developed a substance abuse problem already - they are in short, quite often victims in need of support, and becoming a prostitute serves to worsen their condition, even if it provides them with economic means.

The war on drugs have been successfully tackled in other countries through a therapeutic approach, i.e. decriminalising class a substances and treating addicts, not by legalising it wholesale and teaching people safe practice. There is no safe practice when it comes to taking heroin, cocaine etc. and the end goal was to get people off these substances. If prostitution is decriminalised or legalised I think it has to come with health and support services that help women get out of the industry, rather than simply permissing its perpetuation as "just another job."

True, and I agree fighting economic problems should be a priority. The "worsened condition" is again, from illegality and stigma. Some people do actually choose this job.

I probably shouldn't add to this, since it's outside the topic of the thread. I think it's more accurate to say that things are improved with the liberalization of drug laws though, not fixed. I see no reason why things wouldn't continue to get better though, with full governmental oversight, proper education as to use, regulated commercial distribution as with alchohol/tobacco/caffeine/coldmedicine/EveryOtherDrugWe'reFineWithHavingInStores/etc. The less we prohibit these things, the better the results, as Portugal has shown. Why would that progress suddenly stop at the point of legalization? It'd certainly curb the violence associated with it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
There is no safe practice when it comes to taking heroin, cocaine etc.

If you mean "safe" as in "as healthy for my body as an apple," then no. But then again, neither is half the shit we eat regularly, cigarettes, or alcohol...

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Gaming right now so I can't get too much into this, but yes I am a huge Jordan Peterson fan, but that position was also one I held before I even knew he existed.

I think things would get worse if heroin were legalized tbh. I don't think anything good would come from legalizing any of those drugs tbh besides weed.

Heroin and meth being freely available to the public would be hilarious though. Imagine Tom Turtleneck walking into the store to buy some tomatoes and he comes out with a little bit of heroin. It might stow the violence but holy shit would it ruin everything else. Why is everyone on the block snowblowing their grass or sleeping on their driveway couches?

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I think things would get worse if heroin were legalized tbh. I don't think anything good would come from legalizing any of those drugs tbh besides weed.

Taking LSD genuinely made me a better person and gave me the three best days of my life. And if you look them up you can find story after story of other people who had similar experiences.

If you look at the research on them, they aren't chemically addictive, psychological dependency isn't common, in fact they're actually rather effective at treating addiction to other things like smoking.

Originally posted by Emperordmb I don't think it's particularly emotionally healthy for either person involved, I think it's a very risky and dangerous line of work

No, morality is about a person/group's beliefs in regards to right and wrong.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Morality isn't about your own emotional health lal. Suicide is bad, but it's not immoral. Morality is about the obligations you have to others.

If I have a bad work ethic when it comes to my education, which I do, and that generates consequences for me, then I think I have done something immoral.

And even if you disagree I still think it's obvious that self-harm should be discouraged. There's an entire industry/movement/idfk around discouraging suicide and self-harm.

I think prostitution and most drugs should be legalized. People should be allowed to do as they wish to their own body.

Originally posted by BackFire
I think prostitution and most drugs should be legalized. People should be allowed to do as they wish to their own body.

Originally posted by Silent Master
No, morality is about a person/group's beliefs in regards to right and wrong.

That's right.

Even so called "moral relativism" is a moral decision: Someone is saying they believe imposing on another culture is worse then protecting one from, say, rape or murder (By the wests standards).

Following a moral code without exception, even if an exception causes someone else harm or suffering, is itself a moral decision.

For the record, I have a very specific example in mind.

On another forum, there was a poster named Jaybird. Jaybird LOVED to argue. He'd argue for pages and pages about the immorality of the Supreme Court outlawing, say, the private growing of wheat.

Usually I agreed with his positions. This one time, I did not. It involved a child with curable cancer, and parents who refused to allow treatment for some reason (I forget the reason, but it is unimportant. It could be religious, perhaps?)

Most people on that particular forum wanted the government to intervene. I include myself among that number. Jaybird argued this would be a slippery slope. He argued it would be government overreach. He essentially argued if the government can force parents to help a child for a good reason, they could force parents to "help" for nefarious reasons. He argued "think about the children!" is a common means to do this.

Looking back, I can't say he was wrong. Technically.

But I still believe in this case, intervention is necessary to save that child. I can't bring myself to sacrifice a person, on a fear that something worse can come of it.

That was my moral choice. And Jaybirds was to protect yourself, and your society, at any cost. Even if it results in a child with easily curable cancer dying.

I absolutely do respect his decision, and can see why he believe as he did (I also believe, from his constant hawkish position on Israel, that he was Jewish, and possbly knows a thing or two about slippery slopes leading to government sanctioned attrocity.)

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I agree. There is an obvious difference though between what is right and what someone should be allowed to do.

In this case I think they are mostly in line with one another. I don't think drug use or prostitution is morally wrong. But you know, morals will vary from person to person.

Originally posted by One Big Mob
I think things would get worse if heroin were legalized tbh . . . Imagine Tom Turtleneck walking into the store to buy some tomatoes and he comes out with a little bit of heroin. It might stow the violence but holy shit would it ruin everything else. Why is everyone on the block snowblowing their grass or sleeping on their driveway couches?

Opium was widely available in over the counter medicines through the Victorian era, and we are still here.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I disagree, I think people do have a moral responsibility to their own well being.

If I have a bad work ethic when it comes to my education, which I do, and that generates consequences for me, then I think I have done something immoral.

And even if you disagree I still think it's obvious that self-harm should be discouraged. There's an entire industry/movement/idfk around discouraging suicide and self-harm.

That is not a moral dilemma, it is egoism.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Opium was widely available in over the counter medicines through the Victorian era, and we are still here.

I'm not saying it would kill everyone but it would be a noticable effect on society. Almost worth it just to see how long it takes to become a big deal.

If they made it Legal all those problems would go away.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
That is not a moral dilemma, it is egoism.