Originally posted by FrothByte
I never said it did. All I did was try and clarify your stance, I never agreed to it.So following your reasoning, it means when Thor fought Thanos he wasn't at his best either because he just saw a bunch of his friends and family die?
We dont know what happened before IW.
And again, Hulk's feats are better than Kurse's who never got properly engaged by Thor.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
We dont know what happened before IW.And again, Hulk's feats are better than Kurse's who never got properly engaged by Thor.
Kurse has 1 feat that trumps all of Hulks: He beat up Thor way better than Hulk ever did.
And since this is a fight and not some weightlifting competition, this feat actually counts.
Originally posted by FrothByte
Kurse has 1 feat that trumps all of Hulks: He beat up Thor way better than Hulk ever did.And since this is a fight and not some weightlifting competition, this feat actually counts.
He beat up Thor in a 1 min scene, where Thor is taken by surprise by Kurse's speed and combat skills. And again, Kurse never received a proper hit from Thor!
And lastly, Hulk's strength and durability 》 Dark World Thor.
Beating an emotional unprepared Thor doesnt mean Kurse can win against a stronger, bigger and more durable oponent like Hulk.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He beat up Thor in a 1 min scene, where Thor is taken by surprise by Kurse's speed and combat skills. And again, Kurse never received a proper hit from Thor!And lastly, Hulk's strength and durability 》 Dark World Thor.
Beating an emotional unprepared Thor doesnt mean Kurse can win against a stronger, bigger and more durable oponent like Hulk.
The problem with that reasoning is that you would need quantifiable proof that Thor was weaker when he faced Kurse. Without that, it would be pure speculation and you'd have to allow people to argue speculative theories such as: Thor held back against Hulk, Thor was weakened by the obedience disk, etc.
As such, proof-for-proof (and without speculative theories), you would have to at least concede the fact that Kurse did far better against Thor, both in taking hits and inflicting damage.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
The problem with that reasoning is that you would need quantifiable proof that Thor was weaker when he faced Kurse. Without that, it would be pure speculation and you'd have to allow people to argue speculative theories such as: Thor held back against Hulk, Thor was weakened by the obedience disk, etc.As such, proof-for-proof (and without speculative theories), you would have to at least concede the fact that Kurse did far better against Thor, both in taking hits and inflicting damage.
Then its clear that comparing both of Thor's fights isnt suitable since his fighting condition isnt the same for both scenarios.
The problem with using Thor as a comparison is that Thor is different from Hulk.
Thor handled Hulk so well because he was way faster and agile, which makes Hulk overwhelming strength useless. Kurse on the other hand is smaller than Hulk and faster. He is also more reasonable (aint a brute beast) and actually knows how to fight (He was dodging and blocking Thor's few blows).
To me it seems like a rock, papper, scissors scenario.
Kurse beIng more suited for fighting Thor doesnt mean he can take down the rock.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The problem with using Thor as a comparison is that Thor is different from Hulk.Thor handled Hulk so well because he was way faster and agile which makes Hulk overwhelming strength useless. Kurse on the other hand is smaller than Hulk and faster. He is also more reasonable (aint a brute beast) and actually knows how to fight (He was dodging and blocking Thor's few blows).
To me it seems like a rock, papper, scissors scenario.
Kurse beIng more suited for fighting Thor doesnt mean he can take down the rock.
But you cannot dismiss the fact that Kurse's hits had a visibly greater effect on Thor and Thor's hits had a much less visible effect on Kurse comparing to Hulk. At the very LEAST it makes Kurse a physical peer to Hulk. I would argue even stronger but I can accept peer.
And I also agree, Kurse is a MUCH better tactical fighter than Hulk. And this is why he did so well vs Thor (who uses his superior speed/skill and smaller size to dance around Hulk). Not only did he neutralize Thor's skill advantage, he also (tactically) separated Thor from Mjolnir and kept him off balance.
Thing is, we've seen how a superior fighter with comparable stats would do against Hulk in Thanos. And basically almost every MMA fight we've seen. Superior skill against a physical peer could only end in one result.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
But you cannot dismiss the fact that Kurse's hits had a visibly greater effect on Thor and Thor's hits had a much less visible effect on Kurse comparing to Hulk. At the very LEAST it makes Kurse a physical peer to Hulk. I would argue even stronger but I can accept peer.And I also agree, Kurse is a MUCH better tactical fighter than Hulk. And this is why he did so well vs Thor (who uses his superior speed/skill and smaller size to dance around Hulk). Not only did he neutralize Thor's skill advantage, he also (tactically) separated Thor from Mjolnir and kept him off balance.
Thing is, we've seen how a superior fighter with comparable stats would do against Hulk in Thanos. And basically almost every MMA fight we've seen. Superior skill against a physical peer could only end in one result.
Agree. And you can't dismiss the fact that Hulk never blocked or dodged Thor's attacks, but rather took them head on.
Tactically and in terms of agility I give Kurse the win. Definetly.
The question here is, does Kurse have the strength to brawl and outpower Hulk the way Thanos did?
Another good question here is, can Kurse put down Hulk? I mean, not even a full Mjolnir to the face could bring down Hulk. Hulkbuster was able to K.O him because Hulk was distracted and not-raged.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1) Agree. And you can't dismiss the fact that Hulk never blocked or dodged Thor's attacks, but rather took them head on.Tactically and in terms of agility I give Kurse the win. Definetly.
2) The question here is, does Kurse have the strength to brawl and outpower Hulk the way Thanos did?
3) Another good question here is, can Kurse put down Hulk? I mean, not even a full Mjolnir to the face could bring down Hulk. Hulkbuster was able to K.O him because Hulk was distracted and not-raged.
1) Well, Hulk being a rage monster means that he's more of a brawler. 😛 I doubt he'd do anything different with Kurse.
2) He doesn't need to overpower Hulk tbh. Just score better hits, more hits and get hit less often (or get hit in less critical places). Eventually, he should wear Hulk down the way Thanos did (but will take much longer of course). This is because we know 2 things:
a) Thor's punches can hurt the Hulk
b) Kurse's punches are stronger than Thor's, arguably a peer+ of Hulk's. W/c means that it would hurt Hulk much more than Thor's punches would.
3) Well, we've seen Hulk get KO'd (by Thanos), so it certainly is possible. I certainly don't think Kurse is equal to Thanos, of course, just stating that Hulk can certainly be KO'd.
The problem with that question is that we've never seen (w/o assistance) Hulk KO Thor nor have we seen vice versa. We do not have direct proof of either being able to KO the other. We do know it is possible for either to be KO'd, but we do not have a gauge how much of either is needed to accomplish it.
Best-evidence argument is to use Thor as a simple metric and determine who did better against Thor and go from there. That is my opinion, of course.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1) Well, Hulk being a rage monster means that he's more of a brawler. 😛 I doubt he'd do anything different with Kurse.2) He doesn't need to overpower Hulk tbh. Just score better hits, more hits and get hit less often (or get hit in less critical places). Eventually, he should wear Hulk down the way Thanos did (but will take much longer of course). This is because we know 2 things:
a) Thor's punches can hurt the Hulk
b) Kurse's punches are stronger than Thor's, arguably a peer+ of Hulk's. W/c means that it would hurt Hulk much more than Thor's punches would.3) Well, we've seen Hulk get KO'd (by Thanos), so it certainly is possible. I certainly don't think Kurse is equal to Thanos, of course, just stating that Hulk can certainly be KO'd.
The problem with that question is that we've never seen (w/o assistance) Hulk KO Thor nor have we seen vice versa. We do not have direct proof of either being able to KO the other. We do know it is possible for either to be KO'd, but we do not have a gauge how much of either is needed to accomplish it.
Best-evidence argument is to use Thor as a simple metric and determine who did better against Thor and go from there. That is my opinion, of course.
1. Sure thing.
2. Thanos didn't wear down Hulk. He "Loki'ed" (Broke the floor with Hulk) Hulk 😂
a. Thor's punches pushed back Hulk. Hurt him? Idk, he seemed fine.
b. Would that be enought to put Hulk down?
3. Yeah, but it required another 'Hulk' to do so (Thanos seems to be as strong or even stronger than Banner).
My problem with using that argument is that Thor and Hulk are different in nature.
To me, the best way of comparison in such a case is feats. Because Hulk is completely different in nature to Thor.
Hulk is fire and Thor is water remember 😛
You know I respect your opinion. But in my opinion, Hulk has taken other brute beasts (Like Hulkbuster and Thanos) whereas Kurse hasn't.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
1. Sure thing.2. Thanos didn't wear down Hulk. He "Loki'ed" (Broke the floor with Hulk) Hulk 😂
a. Thor's punches backed Hulk, hurt him? Idk, he seemed fine.
b. Would that be enought to put Hulk down?
3. Yeah, but it required another 'Hulk' to do so (Thanos seems to be as strong or even stronger than Banner).
My problem with using that argument is that Thor and Hulk are different in nature.
To me, the best way of comparison in such a case is feats. Because Hulk is completely different in nature to Thor.
Hulk is fire and Thor is water remember 😛
You know I respect your opinion.
1. Ok.
2. Well it was a combination of things, he outfought Hulk til he wore him down and body slammed him for the KO. 😛 Not saying Kurse could do this, but thinking Kurse has a better chance vs Hulk than Hulk does vs him judging entirely on how they scale off Thor.
a. His body/face punches certainly looked like Hulk felt them. 😛
b. In all honesty, I get your point here and I certainly don’t think it’s as clear cut as it should be.
Because while (using Thor as a metric) Kurse’s punches seem more effective and Kurse’s durability seems better (if we do not take extenuating circumstances like mental condition into consideration), we still cannot determine damage soak/stamina of either. Which means that, there IS a chance that Hulk’s punches could bypass Kurse’s durabilty (unlike Thor’s punches) and that Hulk could possibly outlast Kurse thru sheer damage soak.
But that would require that circumstances perfectly align under those condition. Best-evidence logic would on average conclude that Kurse would win.
3. I would say Kurse is a peer to Hulk as well.
It is hard to gauge thing purely on “feats” as Kurse doesn’t have many and the only lifting “feat” he did doesn’t really showcase his limits. Powerscaling would be the best method here IMO as Thor is the purest comparative metric we can have of either.
Anyway, need to get to work, BRB. 😛
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Ok.2. Well it was a combination of things, he outfought Hulk til he wore him down and body slammed him for the KO. 😛 Not saying Kurse could do this, but thinking Kurse has a better chance vs Hulk than Hulk does vs him judging entirely on how they scale off Thor.
a. His body/face punches certainly looked like Hulk felt them. 😛
b. In all honesty, I get your point here and I certainly don’t think it’s as clear cut as it should be.
Because while (using Thor as a metric) Kurse’s punches seem more effective and Kurse’s durability seems better (if we do not take extenuating circumstances like mental condition into consideration), we still cannot determine damage soak/stamina of either. Which means that, there IS a chance that Hulk’s punches could bypass Kurse’s durabilty (unlike Thor’s punches) and that Hulk could possibly outlast Kurse thru sheer damage soak.
But that would require that circumstances perfectly align under those condition. Best-evidence logic would on average conclude that Kurse would win.
3. I would say Kurse is a peer to Hulk as well.
It is hard to gauge thing purely on “feats” as Kurse doesn’t have many and the only lifting “feat” he did doesn’t really showcase his limits. Powerscaling would be the best method here IMO as Thor is the purest comparative metric we can have of either.
Anyway, need to get to work, BRB. 😛
2. To me it seems like a rock, paper, scissors fight. Thor would be the paper.
Thor is too agile and cunning for Hulk.
Kurse is agile enough, cunning enough and strong enough to engage counter Thor.
Hulk is massively strong and durable.
The only way I see Kurse having the edge is if he out-dances Hulk the way Thor did.
Otherwise, i don't see Kurse actually blocking and taking Hulk's brute attacks
3. Hmmm... Idk, Kurse seems more versatile. Hulk is just a brute.
It's a matter of perception. To me it's harder to gauge based on Thor, since as I mentioned, Hulk =/= to Thor.
Hulk just has massive feats like moving Surtur or punching the Leviathan on his corner, whereas we don't know how well Thor was fighting.
Kurse never got a proper mjolnir strike like Hulk did because he managed to split them. (We don't know if he would be able to cope with such a levels of power).
Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Hulk lost to Hulkbuster, Thanos, was losing to Thor and honestly wasn't doing terribly well vs. Fenris. I don't see him doing to well against an obviously physically SUPERIOR being who is also faster and a better fighter. I just don't.
Hulkbuster was tied with Hulk. He knocked him out due to Hulk calming down.
When was Thanos losing against Thor?
Superior!? Prove Kurse can stop a Leviathan or punch Surtur arround!
Excellent points Froth I agree with all. Except this
Originally posted by FrothByte
3. I don't see what the issue is here. Thor needed to use both arms to fully halt Hulk's overhand smash which seems to indicate that Thor's 2 arms is roughly equal to Hulk's 1 arm. So Hulk catching (in one hand) a hammer blow from Thor delivered by 2 hands is not too far off. The weight of the hammer should have added a bit more oomph to the hit but honestly at the strength level of these guys that extra weight would be miniscule. There's also the concept of forte and foible of weapons, or the strong and weak portions. Basically, the further away from your body you hit with the weapon (in this case at the very end of a hammer) the harder it will be for you to push with the attack. There's more momentum so the initial hit is harder, but as soon as that momentum is gone it will be hard for you to push further, as is the case of Thor hitting with that hammer.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
2. To me it seems like a rock, paper, scissors fight. Thor would be the paper.Thor is too agile and cunning for Hulk.
Kurse is agile enough, cunning enough and strong enough to engage counter Thor.
Hulk is massively strong and durable.
The only way I see Kurse having the edge is if he out-dances Hulk the way Thor did.
Otherwise, i don't see Kurse actually blocking and taking Hulk's brute attacks
3. Hmmm... Idk, Kurse seems more versatile. Hulk is just a brute.
It's a matter of perception. To me it's harder to gauge based on Thor, since as I mentioned, Hulk =/= to Thor.
Hulk just has massive feats like moving Surtur or punching the Leviathan on his corner, whereas we don't know how well Thor was fighting.
Kurse never got a proper mjolnir strike like Hulk did because he managed to split them. (We don't know if he would be able to cope with such a levels of power).
2. Yeah, figured you saw it that way. I see your point, but Kurse doesn't need to dodge Hulk the way Thor does. He can simply block Hulk's punches. And seeing as he is skilled and powerful enough to deflect a returning Mjolnir while his back is turned, that won't be too hard. I can certainly see Kurse blocking most of Hulk's hits while Hulk would likely eat almost all the Kure's hits.
3. Well, I don't disagree. Hulk certainly has the better strength showings of the two. But, like I said, Kurse had a limited showing and very few strength "feats" to go on and has never had his max strength tested. While we can basically scale both off Thor's punches/face (w/c would be the most precise metric IMO).