Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
There is no official description of the God-Mode attributes, at least i havent been able to find any. Therefore i cant bring evidence just like you cant.All we know is that God-Mode seems to boost Thor's power.
So am not dancing arround anything. Am being objective.
Thor used a new ability against Hulk, which he didnt against Kurse. That alone is enough to make both feats different.
He used God-mode. That alters the feat and makes posible to attribute Thor's faster recovery to the new ability.
Was not asking for official descriptions of God-mode attributes. Was asking for proof that God-mode enhances durability/toughness/etc or anything that would affect his recovery/resistance to injury/etc as that is the very premise of your argument.
How are you being objective when you can't provide evidence on something existing yet choose to argue it?
This is about Kurse vs Hulk and Thor is simply being used as a metric. We are using Thor's (non-enhanced) punches' effect on both and Thor's durability/ability to recover/resistance vs the punches of either. Neither one of those are affected by Thor's god-mode/lack thereof. This was already covered in our last debate.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Was not asking for official descriptions of God-mode attributes. Was asking for proof that God-mode enhances durability/toughness/etc or anything that would affect his recovery/resistance to injury/etc as that is the very premise of your argument.How are you being objective when you can't provide evidence on something existing yet choose to argue it?
This is about Kurse vs Hulk and Thor is simply being used as a metric. We are using Thor's (non-enhanced) punches' effect on both and Thor's durability/ability to recover/resistance vs the punches of either. Neither one of those are affected by Thor's god-mode/lack thereof. This was already covered in our last debate.
Hulk beats Thor so badly he is stunned and even has visions of his dead father.
Hela beats Thor so badly he is static whilst she insults him and shames him.
Suddenly, in both scenes, Thor activates God-Mode. He punches Hulk and stands up just fine like if nothing had happen. He summons a massive lightning over Hela, and then walks to kill a bounch of dead asgardian soldiers like if he never faced Hela.
Clearly for some reason Thor's strength was recovered after the God-Mode activation. Coincidence? No, to me the God-Mode boosts Thor's abilities, including stamina/strength.
Do you want me to bring the clips?
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Hulk beats Thor so badly he is stunned and even has visions of his dead father.Hela beats Thor so badly he is static whilst she insults him and shames him.
Suddenly, in both scenes, Thor activates God-Mode. He punches Hulk and stands up just fine like if nothing had happen. He summons a massive lightning over Hela, and then walks to kill a bounch of dead asgardian soldiers like if he never faced Hela.
Clearly for some reason Thor's strength was recovered after the God-Mode activation. Coincidence? No, to me the God-Mode boosts Thor's abilities, including stamina/strength.
Do you want me to bring the clips?
Now thats speculation. And a lot of reaching to boot.
But sure post videos of him healing like Wolverine he to the Lightning. Id love to see that.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Hulk beats Thor so badly he is stunned and even has visions of his dead father.Hela beats Thor so badly he is static whilst she insults him and shames him.
Suddenly, in both scenes, Thor activates God-Mode. He punches Hulk and stands up just fine like if nothing had happen. He summons a massive lightning over Hela, and then walks to kill a bounch of dead asgardian soldiers like if he never faced Hela.
Clearly for some reason Thor's strength was recovered after the God-Mode activation. Coincidence? No, to me the God-Mode boosts Thor's abilities, including stamina/strength.
Do you want me to bring the clips?
Stunned and visions of his father does not mean he is unconscious. This is proven by the script itself (that the uppercut was instinctive). No indication of healing/recovery in the script.
The visions were a big part of the story as he was being shown to dig deep into himself to rediscover the power within him once Mjolnir was gone. It did NOT however, showcase any kind of healing ability.
Thor stood up many times "just fine" when Hulk hit him. He stood up like nothing happened after the kick (and even managed to dodge a sudden hammer throw). Compare that to the kick Kurse gave him and he had several seconds to get out of the way of that rock as Kurse was picking it up but he (likely was too dazed) was unable to do so. He got puny god'd and he stood. Heck even the punch leading up to the ground and pound was Thor still trying to get up (if Hulk didn't foot stomp him, he would have). He recovered just fine after Hulk punched him in Avengers 1 (albeit with a slight nosebleed). This is consistent with his portrayals vs Hulk's attacks. And with him standing up like nothing happened after the Bifrost explosion, it is not an inconsistent showing for Thor to stand up after getting hit hard. If anything, him being unable to stand up after Kurse hits him is the showing that stood out.
Hela hurt Thor via stabs but gave him plenty of time to recover between her taunting. He was losing hope and had his arms pinned while she had him on a choke hold but him getting his lightning back allowed him to get back his bearings as well as get her off him. And this is consistent with just about every protagonist "second wind" moment in every climax on almost every action flick out there. We don't suddenly assume a hero gets healing powers just because he manages to stand up and fight off the bad guy(s) during the climax after getting beat down. Again, if anything it is the Kurse showing that is inconsistent with how he should have behaved.
Finally, the biggest evidence against god-mode healing/recovery is his need for Stormbreaker after getting blasted during the neutron star scene and his inability to recover after Thanos beat him down at the start of IW (even to try and save his friend and his brother from dying). Those were 2 major moments where god-mode healing/recovery were extremely needed, but he never used it.
Let's be straight here, your entire argument is to have the Thor-Hulk GnP thrown out because you feel that there was some sort of unannounced/unmentioned/never alluded to healing/recovery boost that Thor received during his god-mode activation that allowed him to stand up after the GnP Hulk gave him. You have circumstantial evidence, sure, but circumstantial evidence is not proof. X happening after Y does not mean X happened because of Y. And, we don't even know if X even happened at all.
Even if we throw out the GnP showings, your entire argument still does not address the fact that Thor's punches hurt Hulk and were basically ignored by Kurse.
It doesn't address that Kurse is the better tactician/fighter.
It doesn't address that Kurse has the better apples-to-apples "feats" (in Thor).
It doesn't address that Kurse is faster and more skilled (heck Kurse outfought/outskilled Thor in h2h, blocking and dodging while Thor ate direct hits).
It doesn't address that Thor level strength can hurt Hulk and Thor level strength can resist (tho not match) Hulk's strength and Kurse is easily >>> Thor (not even close IMO).
We need to be consistent with our overall logic and approach things from all sides and look at the side that has the most support. I would certainly have no problem making Hulk > Kurse if evidence proved it. But I do not find individual "feats" to overrule character portrayals when an apples-to-apples comparison exists.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Stunned and visions of his father does not mean he is unconscious. This is proven by the script itself (that the uppercut was instinctive). No indication of healing/recovery in the script.The visions were a big part of the story as he was being shown to dig deep into himself to rediscover the power within him once Mjolnir was gone. It did NOT however, showcase any kind of healing ability.
Thor stood up many times "just fine" when Hulk hit him. He stood up like nothing happened after the kick (and even managed to dodge a sudden hammer throw). Compare that to the kick Kurse gave him and he had several seconds to get out of the way of that rock as Kurse was picking it up but he (likely was too dazed) was unable to do so. He got puny god'd and he stood. Heck even the punch leading up to the ground and pound was Thor still trying to get up (if Hulk didn't foot stomp him, he would have). He recovered just fine after Hulk punched him in Avengers 1 (albeit with a slight nosebleed). This is consistent with his portrayals vs Hulk's attacks. And with him standing up like nothing happened after the Bifrost explosion, it is not an inconsistent showing for Thor to stand up after getting hit hard. If anything, him being unable to stand up after Kurse hits him is the showing that stood out.
Hela hurt Thor via stabs but gave him plenty of time to recover between her taunting. He was losing hope and had his arms pinned while she had him on a choke hold but him getting his lightning back allowed him to get back his bearings as well as get her off him. And this is consistent with just about every protagonist "second wind" moment in every climax on almost every action flick out there. We don't suddenly assume a hero gets healing powers just because he manages to stand up and fight off the bad guy(s) during the climax after getting beat down. Again, if anything it is the Kurse showing that is inconsistent with how he should have behaved.
Finally, the biggest evidence against god-mode healing/recovery is his need for Stormbreaker after getting blasted during the neutron star scene and his inability to recover after Thanos beat him down at the start of IW (even to try and save his friend and his brother from dying). Those were 2 major moments where god-mode healing/recovery were extremely needed, but he never used it.
Let's be straight here, your entire argument is to have the Thor-Hulk GnP thrown out because you feel that there was some sort of unannounced/unmentioned/never alluded to healing/recovery boost that Thor received during his god-mode activation that allowed him to stand up after the GnP Hulk gave him. You have circumstantial evidence, sure, but circumstantial evidence is not proof. X happening after Y does not mean X happened because of Y. And, we don't even know if X even happened at all.
Even if we throw out the GnP showings, your entire argument still does not address the fact that Thor's punches hurt Hulk and were basically ignored by Kurse.
It doesn't address that Kurse is the better tactician/fighter.
It doesn't address that Kurse has the better apples-to-apples "feats" (in Thor).
It doesn't address that Kurse is faster and more skilled (heck Kurse outfought/outskilled Thor in h2h, blocking and dodging while Thor ate direct hits).
It doesn't address that Thor level strength can hurt Hulk and Thor level strength can resist (tho not match) Hulk's strength and Kurse is easily >>> Thor (not even close IMO).
We need to be consistent with our overall logic and approach things from all sides and look at the side that has the most support. I would certainly have no problem making Hulk > Kurse if evidence proved it. But I do not find individual "feats" to overrule character portrayals when an apples-to-apples comparison exists.
Scripts don't go that deep into explaining what the 'God-mode' is. They are meant to follow the characters dialogue and actions, not necessarily explain what is happening.
Your speculation is acceptable Nibedicus. Again, there is no hard evidence on the 'God Mode' ability, therefore it's all about speculation.
Hey look what I found after some deep research!
https://comicbook.com/marvel/2017/11/02/thor-ragnarok-lightning-powers-one-eye-patch/
In the third bullet point -
Once Thor makes that realization, he's able to tap into his true power, increasing his strength, flying, and calling down lightning bolts that he can either shoot or surround himself with for an energy shield or "thunder fists" attacks.
They also agree that the God-Mode increases Thor's base strength.
Ehhhh...Not really. The Neutron's Star feat can be interpreted as Thor requiring more power than just the God-Mode. He was so drained that God-Mode wouldn't have aided or wasn't enough. It's reasonable.
So you see why I wouldn't use Thor as a metric? Because the feats aren't equal and there are too much variables that make it not reliable.
That's all i've been trying to prove