Valkorion.
Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.
Essentially, we see that in KOTET Chapter 9, Outlander w/OP holocron + Unchained Vaylin + Redeemed Arcann are utterly overpowered when Valkorion says, "Enough!", snatches the holocron, crushes it, forces the rushing Vaylin and Arcann into submission, each with a casual gesture, then blasting the Outlander with TK and assaulting him with TP. Furthermore, we see that Valkorion is casually able to force Unchained Vaylin to submit to him with TP, and even upon the Outlander's insistence to resist, Valkorion simply applies a bit more pressure, and Vaylin is back under his control. Valkorion could even rejuvenate Vaylin's spirit seemingly indefinitely, thus forcing the Outlander to free her via the holocron. If we assume some degree of relativity between Valkorion's spirit utterly ravaging the trio of Arcann/Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron's spirits and how their physical forms, we can deduce that Peak Valkorion >> Unchained Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron/Redeemed Arcann.
Obviously, the trio collectively would be vastly superior to any of them individually. This leads us to the Outlander, who proved his superiority to Unchained Vaylin by:
a: tanking her final force repulse, essentially walking through it and gutting Vaylin through her force shield.
b: directly defeating Unchained Vaylin's spirit in combat.
This leads us to Unchained Vaylin, whose powers are infinitely greater than those of Chained Vaylin, given that prior to becoming fully Unchained, while undergoing the transformation, her power is stated to be "racing out of control," and she essentially goes from being utterly overwhelmed by and struggling immensely with the 6 sun generators, to completely overpowering them upon becoming Unchained, (and proceeding to casually blow up the whole BRAIN experiment from orbit, to boot). Thus, Unchained Vaylin >>> Chained Vaylin.
Even Chained Vaylin has absurd power curves, though. She goes from being frozen in Valk's time stop, (one where Valk, ironically, mentions how Vaylin's power grows exponentially, and that if he doesn't kill her efficiently, he will die). Vaylin of course completely stomps the Outlander, thus forcing Valkorion to intervene with his time stop. But this time, literally 5 minutes after Valk had Vaylin froze and warned the Outlander about her exponential power growth, Vaylin completely overpowered the time stop in mere seconds. This caused the Outlander to note that Vaylin was even stronger than Valkorion, and the Immortal Emperor had to resort to using her conditioning fashioned by years of rituals on a void meant to "limit her growing power."
As mentioned in the first Reactivation, Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Vitiate as of when he consumed all life on Ziost. Essentially, the gap between Vitiate from the beginning of the Revanite War and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost is microbial compared to the gap between Spirit Valkorion and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost. I've also already spoken for the power Ziostiate wields, from the beginning, middle, and end of Ziost.
So, yeah...Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion.Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.
Essentially, we see that in KOTET Chapter 9, Outlander w/OP holocron + Unchained Vaylin + Redeemed Arcann are utterly overpowered when Valkorion says, "Enough!", snatches the holocron, crushes it, forces the rushing Vaylin and Arcann into submission, each with a casual gesture, then blasting the Outlander with TK and assaulting him with TP. Furthermore, we see that Valkorion is casually able to force Unchained Vaylin to submit to him with TP, and even upon the Outlander's insistence to resist, Valkorion simply applies a bit more pressure, and Vaylin is back under his control. Valkorion could even rejuvenate Vaylin's spirit seemingly indefinitely, thus forcing the Outlander to free her via the holocron. If we assume some degree of relativity between Valkorion's spirit utterly ravaging the trio of Arcann/Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron's spirits and how their physical forms, we can deduce that Peak Valkorion >> Unchained Vaylin/Outlander w/holocron/Redeemed Arcann.
Obviously, the trio collectively would be vastly superior to any of them individually. This leads us to the Outlander, who proved his superiority to Unchained Vaylin by:
a: tanking her final force repulse, essentially walking through it and gutting Vaylin through her force shield.
b: directly defeating Unchained Vaylin's spirit in combat.
This leads us to Unchained Vaylin, whose powers are infinitely greater than those of Chained Vaylin, given that prior to becoming fully Unchained, while undergoing the transformation, her power is stated to be "racing out of control," and she essentially goes from being utterly overwhelmed by and struggling immensely with the 6 sun generators, to completely overpowering them upon becoming Unchained, (and proceeding to casually blow up the whole BRAIN experiment from orbit, to boot). Thus, Unchained Vaylin >>> Chained Vaylin.
Even Chained Vaylin has absurd power curves, though. She goes from being frozen in Valk's time stop, (one where Valk, ironically, mentions how Vaylin's power grows exponentially, and that if he doesn't kill her efficiently, he will die). Vaylin of course completely stomps the Outlander, thus forcing Valkorion to intervene with his time stop. But this time, literally 5 minutes after Valk had Vaylin froze and warned the Outlander about her exponential power growth, Vaylin completely overpowered the time stop in mere seconds. This caused the Outlander to note that Vaylin was even stronger than Valkorion, and the Immortal Emperor had to resort to using her conditioning fashioned by years of rituals on a void meant to "limit her growing power."
As mentioned in the first Reactivation, Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Vitiate as of when he consumed all life on Ziost. Essentially, the gap between Vitiate from the beginning of the Revanite War and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost is microbial compared to the gap between Spirit Valkorion and Vitiate right before he consumed Ziost. I've also already spoken for the power Ziostiate wields, from the beginning, middle, and end of Ziost.
So, yeah...Peak Valkorion >> Outlander/Unchained Vaylin/Arcann >> Outlander > Unchained Vaylin >>> KOTET Chapter 9 Arcann <~ Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate ~ killing and consuming all life on Ziost.
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Tenebrae is undebatably the strongest here.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
[B]Spirit Valkorion >>>>> Ziostiate
I don't think this is clear. Ziostiate was way beyond base spirit Vitiate thanks to absorbing stuff, plus he had a nexus, so it isn't obvious that he would be worse than spirit Valkorion, as Valkorion had all that absorbed energy minus the nexus but now he's weaker due to being a spirit.
It's also unclear whether massive scaling above Ziost beats some scaling above force storms, or astronomical scaling above Nihilus / PoD stuff / etc.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't think this is clear. Ziostiate was way beyond base spirit Vitiate thanks to absorbing stuff, plus he had a nexus, so it isn't obvious that he would be worse than spirit Valkorion, as Valkorion had all that absorbed energy minus the nexus but now he's weaker due to being a spirit.
Are you suggesting that the power Ziostiate absorbed prior to consuming the planet wasn't permanent? The whole point of Ziost was that Vitiate was accumulating power by consuming the spirits of those that died so that he could reach the level to consume the planet, thus growing even stronger. It's a constant growth of his personal power, not a temporary boost.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's also unclear whether massive scaling above Ziost beats some scaling above force storms, or astronomical scaling above Nihilus / PoD stuff / etc.
With Nihilus, I honestly don't think anyone should scale above a specific savant talent fueled by an unnatural, radical hunger we don't see anywhere else in the mythos, and with PoD, I'm not sure I really buy that Bane scales above Ambria or the planetary energy storm.
As for the force storms, I see Ziost as more impressive, especially in the sense that while DE Sidious' ultimate storm was his "full potency", Valkorion would grow vastly stronger after consuming Ziost.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Are you suggesting that the power Ziostiate absorbed prior to consuming the planet wasn't permanent? The whole point of Ziost was that Vitiate was accumulating power by consuming the spirits of those that died so that he could reach the level to consume the planet, thus growing even stronger. It's a constant growth of his personal power, not a temporary boost.
Well, say:
base Vitiate = 100
spirit Vitiate = 20
spirit Vitiate + absorptions = 80
spirit Vitiate + absorptions + nexus = 110
Valkorion = 170
spirit Valkorion = 90
Is there a reason that couldn't be true? Idk how it works if Valkorion gets X power-up but then does turning into a spirit cut it by some fraction or something?
Valkorion is clearly above Ziostiate, but I'm not sure if you get this massive scaling where like Arcann is greater than him and can annihilate civilizations with the Force.
With Nihilus, I honestly don't think anyone should scale above a specific savant talent fueled by an unnatural, radical hunger we don't see anywhere else in the mythos,
I suppose it depends on whether *only* the drain is powered by his hunger and whether it counts as part of his "power". Eh.
As for the force storms, I see Ziost as more impressive, especially in the sense that while DE Sidious' ultimate storm was his "full potency", Valkorion would grow vastly stronger after consuming Ziost.
Well, I think consuming fleets of starships capable of turning planetary surfaces to molten slag is a greater destructive feat.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, say:base Vitiate = 100
spirit Vitiate = 20
spirit Vitiate + absorptions = 80
spirit Vitiate + absorptions + nexus = 110
Valkorion = 170
spirit Valkorion = 90Is there a reason that couldn't be true?
The nexus did so little that Vitiate could only possess a small amount of people when he arrived, then gradually accumulated power from that, lmao.
If the nexus only lets him possess a few people, then it's utterly negligible to the power needed to cleanse a planet and affect an outer core, regardless if you don't think the latter is end-all, be-all impressive.
And Vitiate draining the dead from a single city is a fraction of draining an entire planet, eight-thousand Sith Lords, and all the fauna and flora, so it's clear spirit Vitiate + absorptions + nexus is a fraction of base spirit Vitiate.
Originally posted by Jaggarath
The nexus did so little that Vitiate could only possess a small amount of people when he arrived, then gradually accumulated power from that, lmao.
You don't know how many people base Vitiate can possess in that timeframe.
If the nexus only lets him possess a few people, then it's utterly negligible to the power needed to cleanse a planet and affect an outer core, regardless if you don't think the latter is end-all, be-all impressive.
I dunno whether nexuses are primarily additive, multiplicative, or something else.
And Vitiate draining the dead from a single city is a fraction of draining an entire planet, eight-thousand Sith Lords, and all the fauna and flora, so it's clear spirit Vitiate + absorptions + nexus is a fraction of base spirit Vitiate.
Another thing to note is that modest differences in Force power seem to translate into enormous gaps in feats - you presumably don't think Dooku could pull even a tiny fraction of Ziost, but do you think Valkorion could solo one billion Dooku's?
Anyway, aside from the fact that force storms are way more destructive, they have a few more advantages:
- they're done on short notice, while we have no idea how long it takes Valkorion to charge up the death wave
- they can teleport entire fleets of warships across the galaxy
- that the death wave "corrupted" the Force in an almost Nathema-like fashion makes me suspicious of how ritualistic it was
I explain most of this in my post in Azronger. I don't know if you've read it or not, but I'll try to briefly summarize.
Unchained Vaylin can one-shot spirit Valkorion, who in turn can one-shot spirit unchained Vaylin, demonstrating an insta-kill gap between a physical body and a spirit. Your argument is that spirit Vitiate breached that gap by being on a dark side nexus and draining some of the life force from a city. Maybe, although you're also underestimating how drastically weakened Vitiate was on Ziost compared to his normal spirit state.
Vitiate explicitly consumed Nathema, the eight-thousand Sith Lords, an end-all, be-all dark side nexus, etc. into his essence, hence how he carries that power from Voice to Voice. Whatever boost Vitiate received from being in the presence of a dark side nexus and draining some of a city is simply far less than what his spirit previously held before the Hero of Tython brought him to "the brink of annihilation."
Add on the other gap, and it's clear physical Vitiate is far more powerful than the Vitiate that consumed Ziost.
You don't know how many people base Vitiate can possess in that timeframe.I dunno whether nexuses are primarily additive, multiplicative, or something else.
Based on the telepathic domination feats of the Dread Masters and Lord Vivicar, it's evident physical Vitiate can do far more.
Consider that, when weakened spirit Vitiate first came to Ziost, he was incapable of dominating the Imperial outpost. Theron Shan merely received trickled reports of soldiers turning on civilian populations. Even once Lana Beniko notified the Outlander of what was happening, Vitiate still had yet to take over the outpost. If the nexus amp itself was literally stronger than spirit Vitiate entirely like you proposed, you'd expect Vitiate strolling in with far more potent powers, regardless if nexus amps are proportional. Moreover, the fact they only mention the nexus once in the entire expansion is indicative that the entire feat isn't dependent on it, lol.
Also, it seems that the Eclipse is a far more potent dark side nexus, which Tom Veitch has apparently explicitly confirmed in a separate interview. Are we also now going to call into question the entirety of Force storms because Sidious does them on a dark side nexus?
Another thing to note is that modest differences in Force power seem to translate into enormous gaps in feats - you presumably don't think Dooku could pull even a tiny fraction of Ziost, but do you think Valkorion could solo one billion Dooku's?
That's a polar extreme to propose "modest differences" on one side and the alternative to be "one billion Dooku's," lmao.
they're done on short notice, while we have no idea how long it takes Valkorion to charge up the death wave
It's a short amount of time, albeit not as short as the Force storms.
- they can teleport entire fleets of warships across the galaxy
Can't the Aing-Ti do that also?
that the death wave "corrupted" the Force in an almost Nathema-like fashion makes me suspicious of how ritualistic it was
The effects on the Force are unfathomably different. This borders on an Alex Jones conspiracy theory.
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Originally posted by Jaggarath
The nexus did so little that Vitiate could only possess a small amount of people when he arrived, then gradually accumulated power from that, lmao.If the nexus only lets him possess a few people, then it's utterly negligible to the power needed to cleanse a planet and affect an outer core, regardless if you don't think the latter is end-all, be-all impressive.
That’s a weak argument. The only logical way Nexus’ work is the more powerful you are the more of their power you can handle. Ergo if Spirit Vitiate can only possess a few people at the start, it’s because he was weaker. That doesn’t mean that once he’s accumulated more power he can’t lean more heavily on the nexus.
Originally posted by JaggarathAlso, it seems that the Eclipse is a far more potent dark side nexus, which Tom Veitch has apparently explicitly confirmed in a separate interview. Are we also now going to call into question the entirety of Force storms because Sidious does them on a dark side nexus?
Where is this proof that the Eclipse itself is a dark side nexus?
Given that Sheev is inside the ship, it seems pretty obviously referring to him.