Originally posted by RealistRacism
but Legends Grievous fists Maul so hard.
Not really. Hes still solidly below Dooku and Kenobi in Sabers. Mace crushed him with the Force pretty easily.
The Jedi he fought/beat, were all below Maul and the top tier ones were no better than Qui-Gon/Anoon except specifically stated to be exhausted during their interactions with him.
Hes a level 8 duelist like them. Even though there can be a significant difference between level 8s, even IF Maul is on the lower end of that tier, he would at least be on par with Grievous as a duelist.
Plus he has TK as a weapon on top.
Ive not even gone into all the wankery statements of Mauls speed and dueling abilities. Nor have I included Shadow Conspiracy, just specifically Old Legends.
The tiers account for both force power and lightsaber skill. What makes you say that Grievous is on the lower end? If Mace can be an 8 bordering on a 9, the tier gaps can't be very large...
Maul's TK can do what? Push Grievous away and delay the inevitable? It's demonstrably not as strong as Mace's, since he's shown us that he cannot crush Grievous' chest. Maul could have done so to the weak ass Canon version of Grievous in SoD, but didn't. But this Legends; A stronger Grievous, and a weaker Maul.
Grievous too has hyperbolic statements made about his speed and duelling abilities. So do characters like Aayla Secura and Aurra Sing. Every single Jedi according to Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force has the power to appear as a blur to onlookers. Trash like Drallig and Kas'im have accolades wanking their duelling ability, and they're absolute fodder.
I expect Mauls TK to likely disarm Grievous much like Kenobi did.
The tiers may refer to Force plus Sabers (or at least the standard Force push as it applies to a Saber fight). However whats important here is Grievous Doesnt Have the Force. So when both Kenobi and Dooku are superior to Greivous in Sabers alone, then TK is just that extra Trump card on top.
Yeah except Mauls skill is a bit more Quantifiable given we know hes more skilled than Qui-Gon and Anoon Bondara.
Maul isn't as smart as Kenobi, the retard isn't even going to think of that.
But TK is shown to never be a trump card against Grievous unless you can crush him with it. He consistently evades or shrugs off force pushes and objects thrown his way. Dooku and Kenobi being superior to Grievous is irrelevant, since Maul isn't on their level. Why keep bringing this up?
And what? They're both comparable to Grievous? Hilarious. Maul never defeated them through pure skill anyway, its always his physicals that allow him to compete with the sh!t-tier Masters and their Padawans.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Maul isn't as smart as Kenobi, the retard isn't even going to think of that.But TK is shown to never be a trump card against Grievous unless you can crush him with it. He consistently evades or shrugs off force pushes and objects thrown his way. Dooku and Kenobi being superior to Grievous is irrelevant, since Maul isn't on their level. Why keep bringing this up?
And what? They're both comparable to Grievous? Hilarious. Maul never defeated them through pure skill anyway, its always his physicals that allow him to compete with the sh!t-tier Masters and their Padawans.
Since we are talking TCW, didn't Grievous fail to kill Ahsoka?
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Maul isn't as smart as Kenobi, the retard isn't even going to think of that.
Firstly Maul is very smart.
Secondly, I missed the part where Kenobi beat Grievous's butt by outsmarting him.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
But TK is shown to never be a trump card against Grievous unless you can crush him with it.
Perhaps you missed ROTS?
Originally posted by RealistRacism
He consistently evades or shrugs off force pushes and objects thrown his way.
By higher level council members? Nope.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
Dooku and Kenobi being superior to Grievous is irrelevant, since Maul isn't on their level. Why keep bringing this up?
Kenobi is now on another level to Maul? Lol
Maul is a confirmed level 8 saber duelist just like a Kenobi or a Dooku.Of course Dooku is on the higher end of that tier. But unless you think Kenobi = Dooku in Saber combat, then clearly Kenobi is somewhere in the mid range of that tier.
Either way Maul being an 8 puts him above the likes of Grievous. Certainly doesn't place him below Grievous lmao.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
And what? They're both comparable to Grievous? Hilarious. Maul never defeated them through pure skill anyway, its always his physicals that allow him to compete with the sh!t-tier Masters and their Padawans.
Actually Grievous is the one whose only defeated shit tier masters.
Either tell me the combatant Grievous beat who is on the level of Qui-Gon or concede the point.
FYI Maul was not only above Qui-Gon, but actually superior to the TPM Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan duo.
Dock flat out stated Grievous is no match for higher level Council Members. Qui-Gob was specifically stated to be Council Tier. Anton specifically stated to be a top tier duelist.
Wrong, Maul was more skilled than Qui-Gon and Anoon, and is stated to have Unparalleled Saber and close combat skills.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
He's confirmed to have been holding back, idiot.
Oh if we include TCW then there's no argument against Maul > Grievous at all.
I'm just proving he is Maul's inferior in any continuity. Always was, always will be. Since that was clearly always the intention.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
I love having these pointless, drawn-out debates that span days with you Thor.
Lol well someone has to keep these forums alive.
Originally posted by RealistRacism
That last comment about Grievous holding back wasn't directed at you btw.
Oh I know. That last bit was an edit I just added as a bonus.
Originally posted by Beelzebub
Alright in order to further clarify some of my points I'll split my post into sections and address each relevant point one at a time:
To start off I'll address the canon status of the game relevant to the novel.
Re: Game vs Novel Canon:
As I will bring up points from the game in future points I feel the need to address this point before I even start on the rest of my post.
This never occurred in the novel and, per Leeland Chee, the novelization of TFU takes precedent over any ancillary material or alternative portrayals when it comes to what actually occurred in the TFU storyline.
Yes Leeland Chee said the novelization has a higher position than other sources but that doesn't mean we immediately disregard them lol.
The novelization may have a higher canon status and is the one true canon path but in that very same quote you provided it was stated that:
"The game casts players as Darth Vader's "Secret Apprentice" and the storyline promises to unveil new revelations about the Star Wars galaxy."
Look at the above quote. How can the game have "new revelations about the Star Wars galaxy" if the entirety of the game is non canon and the only relevant material is the cutscenes which align in the novel? The answer to this is it can't lol.
Logically based on this we would assume the game is still a perfectly viable source and that any and all cutscenes are canon unless outright contradicted by the novel (the one true canon path).
And unfortunately for you the fact that Vader force pushed Galen mid-fight isn't contradicted by the novel as far as I'm aware especially since the novel had some incredibly vague descriptions about the fight.
Re: Vader vs Galen Force Battle:
Alright so in essence to prove Galen's vast superiority to Vader force wise you're argument hinges on Vader being pain amped when Galen ragdolled him which would negate his injuiries.
Okay so to counter you points on pain being able to amp Dark Side users I'll start by dealing with your simply awful examples here.
First off Caedus:
Caedus utilized his pain in order to amp himself in multiple fights including; his fight with Jaina, his fight with Aurra Sing and his aforementioned fight with Luke.
Great you've only provided mid combat examples. All of these happened while Jacen was fighting mid comabt and fuelled by adreneline but at the end of a fight (Caedus vs a Jedi Strike Team) when he was shot and had used a significant portion of his force reserves he began to lose concentration.
"Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.
And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping."
-Legacy of the Force Fury
There done.
Next two examples:
Multiple instances in the lore contradict your belief as well. Bane's powers were enhanced by pain and Maul himself was able to use his pain to briefly overcome his exhaustion after being hunted for weeks by a droid army on a barren planet with no food or water.
Yes great. Now care to tell me what the two examples you provided actually prove. All you've done is once again provide flawed examples. Both were non combative so they're essentially useless when I'm specifically making note that when injuiries are substained in combat towards the end of a fight when force users have depleted their force reserves pain amps don't work.
Overall you've not provided a single example of a force User using pain to amp themselves at the end of a long fight where they had drained there force reserves and recieved substantial injuiries both of which happened here BTW.
To reiterate:
Vader had been fighting Galen for a signifcant period of time, was overwhelmed and stabbed three times.
In fact numerous examples actually contradict what you're saying with there being several instances of dark side users being overwhelmed and beaten and not getting back up.
Your theory isn't supported no matter what you believe and is actually contradicted by all 3 sources on the matter. Not one of them mention Vader amping himself with pain (pain when amping a Dark Side User is always mentioned but her it was not suggesting Vader most likely was not amping himself with pain and I severely doubt that's what Sean Williams intended when writing the passage) and in fact all 3 seem to suggest Vader was beaten down by Galen and wasn't using pain to amp himself when Galen ragdolled him.
1. The novel:
Galen stabs Vader twice of course as you know.
"Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh."
Now a couple of sentences after this it notes that Vader prepared for combat again indicating that he was overpowered here.
"Vader prepared for combat again."
Now given he was brought down by these injuiries I doubt it's exactly logical to assume he could use them to amp himself. In fact the entire point is that Vader by this point has been overwhelmed and lacks the control to deal with his apprentice by now and that using Galen's anger was his last card because he lost the saber duel.
"His power over the apprentice, however, was gone."
He's basically trying to fight despite already having lost the physical battle.
Everything supports the fact that Vader had already lost and that Galen was just essentially finishing him by ragdolling him.
2. The game:
https://youtu.be/HblR0sMoh3s?t=932
As you can see Vader is clearly intended to be overwhelmed in sabers and with Galen basically just ragdolling a defeated Vader who is incredibly battle damaged. I mean look at him afterwards. He's lying in a defeated heap on the floor and there's no way Galen ragdolling him did that especially since all Galen did was throw him about a bit. I find it much more likely it was the lightsaber wounds which brought Vader down.
3. The comic:
Don't exactly have anything to hand here scans wise but the comc basically has Galen stabbing Vader in the chest and collapsing some pillars on him IIRC. In the comic Galen doesn't ragdoll him lol but it pretty much goes hand in hand with the other sources. Galen overpowers Vader in sabers then uses the force.
Every source here has Galen overpowering and injuiring Vader in sabers before basically ragdolling a defeated Vader. It was never intended that Galen could just go out and one shot Vader with TK and the game outright contradicts this with Galen throwing a defeated Vader threw a window after showing how injuired Vader really was with him being incredibly battle damaged. In fact it really begs the question as to why Galen after his clarity didn't just go and ragdoll Vader with ease if we believe your account that Galen can basically one shot Vader. None of your argument makes sense and is at odds with the material.
Now as to Vader and Galen's force power equality:
As I previously established Vader can send Galen flying with a force push and stun him for about 5 seconds indicating parity beween Galen and Vader. Now of course your rebuttal to this was just "the game doesn't have any relevance" which of course was debunked in the first section of my reubuttal to you.
Now as to more evidence.
The line cited below seems to suggest Vader and Galen were relatively close in Force Power given it said they were both battling with the force with it giving neither the definitive edge.
"And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers."
Alright I'm done with the force power section and I'll most likely address the lightsaber battle some time between now and next weekend.