Originally posted by Beelzebub
1. Mostly you ignoring my explanation for why Vader was able to take Vader off guard in the first place and how Vader has no such excuse, especially considering he was the one who had been training Galen since he was a child. Another would be you not addressing that Galen ragdolled Vader at the end of the fight.2. I took a several lines showing Galen being notable faster then Vader and using that speed to ultimately overwhelm Vader to show his superiority*
I'll respond to your post tomorrow and hope to clarify some of my points.
1. A) The text literally notes how both Vader and Galen had never faced each other as equals and they circled each other warily which would insinuate Vader was unprepared for Galen as well.
1. B) I did address it though. I argued Vader was injuired which is why Galen ragdolled him. Unless you think Galen could ragdoll the guy who he couldn't ragdoll seconds ago.
2. The passage doesn't note Galen was too fast for Vader. He could just as easily be more skilled.
Originally posted by HP Legend
I'll respond to your post tomorrow and hope to clarify some of my points.1. A) The text literally notes how both Vader and Galen had never faced each other as equals and they circled each other warily which would insinuate Vader was unprepared for Galen as well.
1. B) I did address it though. I argued Vader was injuired which is why Galen ragdolled him. Unless you think Galen could ragdoll the guy who he couldn't ragdoll seconds ago.
2. The passage doesn't note Galen was too fast for Vader. He could just as easily be more skilled.
1. It states that the reason they had never faced each other as equals was because Vader had held back or because Galen had capitulated. This outright states that Vader was hiding his true capabilities ( something that other masters are known to have done with their apprentices ala Dooku and Grievous ) whereas Vader would have been familiar with Galen's capabilities having taught him everything he knows and trained him for over a decade.
It's not a matter of Galen being capable of ragdolling Vader but being willing to imo which is what I've been arguing.
2. It literally notes that Vader struggles to keep Galen's blows from landing on multiple occasions. None of the quotes I posted indicate that this comes about as a result of superior skill on Galen's part.
This is why I always disliked TFU plot. You basically get an OP scaling protagonist who, by the end of the game, after killing like three or so Jedi can now beat up Vader. Also, what is up with his power scaling? He goes from getting ragdolled by Vader to getting revived and then smacking Vader around by the end of the fight.
I don't know, it just never interested me, and I never liked Galen. Plus the reverse Shien grip looks God awful. That's just my personal opinion on the character though. I'm on the fence re: the debate going on. Though I'm quite sure prime Vader would dispose of Starkiller.
I always saw Starkiller as a Maul who had a way stronger connection to the force.
Originally posted by Beelzebub
1. It states that the reason they had never faced each other as equals was because Vader had held back or because Galen had capitulated. This outright states that Vader was hiding his true capabilities ( something that other masters are known to have done with their apprentices ala Dooku and Grievous ) whereas Vader would have been familiar with Galen's capabilities having taught him everything he knows and trained him for over a decade.It's not a matter of Galen being capable of ragdolling Vader but being willing to imo which is what I've been arguing.
2. It literally notes that Vader struggles to keep Galen's blows from landing on multiple occasions. None of the quotes I posted indicate that this comes about as a result of superior skill on Galen's part.
1. Seriously? You didn't refute my point you just argued a bunch of gibberish not supported by the text at all.
"They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. "
1. A) I'm sure you understand warily means cautiously or carefully. If Vader knew his apprentice inside and out surely he wouldn't have been wary. He's dealing with unknown strength just like Galen is and you saying "well hurr durr he trained Galen so he should know him" isn't supported by the text at all. This is one of the more questionable points you've made. Now I realise this idea that Galen wasn't the only unprepared one may be hard for you to accept so I shall surther supplement it.
"Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential."
It says "they". Vader was unprepared for what he is facing because Galen has grown since then Vader has no idea how much better Galen is. He's not sure as to Galen's power and is therefore unsure what Galen will do. Stop acting as though this was all on Galen's side. It makes you look incredibly biased.
1. B) Galen being willing to? Oh boy this is too good to be true. Galen is worried he'll descend down to The Dark Side if he kills Vader but ragdolling Vader would be an easy kill free way to overpower Vader so there is no reason for Galen to not ragdoll Vader. Especially since even when he realises a better way to win he still overpowers Vader in sabers first rather than ragdolling him which should indicate prior to Vader's injuries he was incapable of doing so.
2. There is no indication it's due to speed either. The text doesn't note it.
Originally posted by Meatpants
This is why I always disliked TFU plot. You basically get an OP scaling protagonist who, by the end of the game, after killing like three or so Jedi can now beat up Vader. Also, what is up with his power scaling? He goes from getting ragdolled by Vader to getting revived and then smacking Vader around by the end of the fight.I don't know, it just never interested me, and I never liked Galen. Plus the reverse Shien grip looks God awful. That's just my personal opinion on the character though. I'm on the fence re: the debate going on. Though I'm quite sure prime Vader would dispose of Starkiller.
I always saw Starkiller as a Maul who had a way stronger connection to the force.
The novel indicates that most of Galen's limitations are psychological and come about as a result of Vader's conditioning. As Galen is apart from Vader and starts making his own decision he begins to free himself of these psychological blocks and becomes independent, not restricted by his ties to Vader. The plot's not amazing but it's decent imo. The themes of breaking out of the mold designed for you is pretty much a universally appreciated one and it's done well imo.
Galen is never ragdolled by Vader under normal circumstances so I don't know what you're referring to.
1. Seriously? You didn't refute my point you just argued a bunch of gibberish not supported by the text at all.
I did address your point. I noted that they'd never faced each other as equals because Vader held back and that Vader would have logically been aware of Galen's general abilities since he raised and trained him for over a decade and was the sole source of all Galen's knowledge in the Force and in lightsaber combat.
1. A) I'm sure you understand warily means cautiously or carefully. If Vader knew his apprentice inside and out surely he wouldn't have been wary.
Why not? If he's aware of Galen's general capabilities then he knows he's facing a being who's more powerful then himself. Any rational individual would approach an opponent who's likely more powerful then oneself carefully. That's why Vader approaches Galen's clone cautiously in TFUII despite being well aware of what he was capable of and having weakened him beforehand.
Originally posted by HP Legend
He's dealing with unknown strength just like Galen is and you saying "well hurr durr he trained Galen so he should know him" isn't supported by the text at all.
It's not stated by the text but it is supported by logic and common sense. I can see you don't necessarily possess and abundance of these traits though.
Originally posted by HP Legend
This is one of the more questionable points you've made. Now I realise this idea that Galen wasn't the only unprepared one may be hard for you to accept so I shall surther supplement it. It says "they". Vader was unprepared for what he is facing because Galen has grown since then Vader has no idea how much better Galen is. He's not sure as to Galen's power and is therefore unsure what Galen will do.
Again, as I noted, logic and common sense dictate that Vader should mostly be aware of what Galen's capable of given his favored position as his sole instructor for over a decade. While he might not necessarily know EVERYTHING about his apprentice from a combative standpoint, he should know just about all there is.
Originally posted by HP Legend
1. B) Galen being willing to? Oh boy this is too good to be true. Galen is worried he'll descend down to The Dark Side if he kills Vader but ragdolling Vader would be an easy kill free way to overpower Vader so there is no reason for Galen to not ragdoll Vader.
How exactly does ragdolling Vader help Galen do anything other then eat up his own reserves of energy if he's not willing to follow through and kill Vader?
Originally posted by HP Legend
Especially since even when he realises a better way to win he still overpowers Vader in sabers first rather than ragdolling him which should indicate prior to Vader's injuries he was incapable of doing so.
I don't see how it would indicative of that since there's no reason such an injury would have hampered Vader's ability to defend himself against Galen's Force attack.
Originally posted by HP Legend
2. There is no indication it's due to speed either. The text doesn't note it.
The novel directly notes that Galen's tactics revolve around being "fast and sly" where Vader's rely on being "strong and relentless."
"Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly." - The Force Unleashed.
Originally posted by ares834
I don't care. I'm talking about the game where this is not implied at all.
Just because he defeats Galen in the DS ending does not suggest that the two can't have a competitive battle and that Galen is incapable of winning. This is made even more apparent when he manages to block Palpatine's lightning barehanded in the canon ending.
Regardless, this is all irrelevant to my initial statement.
Originally posted by ares834
Just because he defeats Galen in the DS ending does not suggest that the two can't have a competitive battle and that Galen is incapable of winning. This is made even more apparent when he manages to block Palpatine's lightning barehanded in the canon ending.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
How does Galen sacrificing himself to momentarily stop the Emperor's lightning make it apparent that he could defeat the Emperor? I mean, Vader did him one better and killed the Emperor in a similar situation, but no one seriously contends that Vader could have a competitive battle with him based on that.
Similar situation? Starkiller was using the force to block Sheev's lightning, he didn't catch Sheev off guard. The situations aren't similar in the slightest. And it was several seconds, comparable to how long Yoda blocked it. I certainly wouldn't use the word "momentarily".
But more importantly, I said "more apparent". The sequence alone does not make it apparent that Galen can have a competitive battle.
Originally posted by ares834
Similar situation? Starkiller was using the force to block Sheev's lightning, he didn't catch Sheev off guard. The situations aren't similar in the slightest. And it was several seconds, comparable to how long Yoda blocked it. I certainly wouldn't use the word "momentarily".But more importantly, I said "more apparent". The sequence alone does not make it apparent that Galen can have a competitive battle.
Doesn't matter, Vader still tanked through his lightning which was something even Windu couldn't do. Yet somehow some people still lowball Vader below Maul and Dooku level for some reason?