Women in the work place: don't hire them and avoid them

Started by dadudemon14 pages

Originally posted by cdtm
If you don't know who Pendaran is, you're lucky. You've also never been to CBR.

He's pretty infamous, for his encyclopediac knowledge of comics, and his absolute ruthlessness in debates.

He also catalogs percieved faults, and motions for bans. Often successfully.

I've seen him accuse good posters of outright lying, because of an honest mistake. Doesn't matter that this good poster was his biggest fan. Pendaran has no friends, he has meat and allies.

He sounds like Quan. hmm

Quans his kinder, gentler mirror universe counterpart. 😂

Originally posted by dadudemon
He sounds like Quan. hmm

Not really, Quan for the most part is just your run-of-the-mill troll.

I guess he wants attention. The poster called da-dude-mon dared call someone he thought was a woman, "dude", and now that poster's feelings are hurt.

Originally posted by the person who revealed my most guarded and darkest secret that I loathed Ush and Peach modding KMC: Zampano. How dare you do this to me. How dare you.

Paraphrased: [Same number of complaints made to the (federal) Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in 1994 and 2015]

The population growth in the US is still geometric which means complaints have sharply decreased per capita since 1994 despite sexual harassment rates remaining the same, despite spending on HRM per employee, despite increases in spending on business insurance, despite the costs of employer-employee suits increasing, and despite training costs increasing over these same periods of time. Every measure of quality, on average, points to sexual harassment in the workplace being more and more costly without actually being very effective.

And it has gotten so bad, lately, that some are seeing diminishing returns and have determined that they passed the "critical point" to where it costs more to have women in the workplace than not. If you're a business of less than 15 people, you're in luck: Article VII doesn't apply and FMLA doesn't apply. So if you're a Wall Street firm of 14 people deciding to hire a new investment consultant, it might be financially more appropriate to steer clear of women. If your sense of right and wrong gets the better of you, hire the best candidate that could possibly be a woman. If it is a woman, use some of my tips to keep out of trouble.

Sexual harassment training is largely ineffective.

EEOC reports sexual harassment suits keep costing more and more up 13% 2016 to 2017.

Sexual harassment "training" may actually worsen opinions in the work place and create a bias against "overly emotional and scary women" in the work place.

Despite the personal feelings of retaliation in polls, retaliation lawsuits vastly mismatch feelings. This is also despite the easy-to-win cases if retaliation actually took place...but it requires evidence which is why women are vastly over-reporting retaliation.

Additionally, it has been proven over and over again that courts favor women. For good or bad, even judges seem to want to white-knight women through court caes. So if a woman had evidence of retaliation, winning that case is a slam dunk. With the feverish "save women and minorities" gold rush with things like the #metoo movement, lawyers salivate over sexual harassment suits. If you saw a 13% year over year increase in your investments, I'm sure you'd be salivating, too.

You tried to sneak in the fact that federal harassment suits are capped while ignoring the hundreds of millions it has cost the federal government. Perhaps a person quickly reading your post would gloss over the fact that civil cases are not capped. Additionally, some recent "commercial sector" sexual harassment cases had judgement ruled in the tens of millions: hence the increased spending on business insurance and HRM. It's risk aversion. Businesses who make it their business to manage and invest in risk will obviously be the first to adapt to risk trends such as the increasing cost of women in the workplace. That's terrible news!

So why are you upset with me posting about tactics for men to avoid getting into trouble at work so you can still employ women? Why do you want to prevent men from equipping themselves with tools to stay out of trouble in the work place?

Does it irritate you that some men have a fear of working with women? Why?

As I said, I think talking to you is a waste of time. Look at all this time I spent gathering information to demonstrate why you're clearly wrong. You even lack fairly normal understanding of putting into context numbers that are decades apart (1994 vs 2015).

And, look: I wasted a ton of time proving very easy to understand, very normal facts. That's so much time! I don't want to spend that time talking to idiots.

Don't be mad that some businesses are making correct opportunity cost decisions by avoiding working with females. Instead, you should focus on the tools I'm trying to equip young men on this forum with so they can do better in the workplace. Some of them are legit incels. Who knows what kind of awkward bullshit they will say at work. They will remember good 'ol uncle dadudemon telling them "don't be alone in the room with your female coworker" advice. And maybe even keep their job! 🙂

Now watch as you respond to literally everything and I don't read it. I'll beat you to it:

HR training needs to be "better" to be effective to reduce sexual harassment. <- I've been hearing this for almost 20 years, now. Why aren't things changing and why does it cost more? This is an area that is great to be proven wrong about. I'll wait 20 more years.

Sexual harassment is decreasing if dadudemon's point about population is good. <- But that runs contrary to the increasing and ineffective costs of HRM. See above.

People very very much under-report sexual harassment because they fear retaliation. <- So? Are you trying to prove the sexist Wall Street bros right? That they should not hire women for fear of retaliation suits? That's a terrible point. That's, of course, other than the point I made about retaliation cases being slam dunks if they are legit especially after the EEOC changed the rules to make it even easier to sue the shit out of your employer.

I did this while working out. It's because I'm a sexist Wall Street Bro who #MAGA's all over women's faces and #metoo's their dirigibles at work at all times.

Originally posted by cdtm
Quans his kinder, gentler mirror universe counterpart. 😂

I like Quan. Except the fact that he just can't let things go with Surt and Fly.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Not really, Quan for the most part is just your run-of-the-mill troll.

What? No. Maybe. I don't know. Depends on the topic and people. Quan and I can have good discussions with little issues. But he holds grudges like a mofo.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/kimberly-webb-video-former-huntsville-texas-officer-knocked-down-hurt-by-her-sergeant/

Former police officer filing EEOC suit against the Huntsville police. Video comes forward that shows her supervising officer showed her a leg sweep and she hurt her arm on the desk. Which doesn't help the case for that police department.

Here's the timeline:

1. She was fired. The article doesn't state why.

2. Something happened after she was fired that we don't know.

3. She files a suit against the police because of 1 and 2.

4. Loses the case.

5. Her supervising officer about a year after things have settled down, asks to see pictures of her boobs in a back and forth convo over text (what an idiot).

6. (Present) She uses that as evidence of unfair termination (Violation of Article VII under the American Civil Rights Act) and that her termination was due to her reporting assault in the work place (see video).

This is the exact kind of crap I'm talking about in the OP. Demonstrating leg sweeps in the office is the wrong place to do it. They have classes for that. Some municipalities have mandatory training, periodically, for this kind of thing. So there is clearly a time and a place.

He was smart enough to do it in front of other officers instead of alone. She was clearly fired for doing something wrong on the job or lots of somethings wrong on the job. But this officer completely screwed over the police department with his "leg sweep demos" and sexual text messages a year after she lost her wrongful termination suit. Why would you even try to hook up with someone that filed a lawsuit for a wrongful termination? It's just asking for trouble.

But what if they never hired her to begin with? None of these things would have been a problem and the case that they will probably lose would never happen. "But what if you just fired the supervisor instead of the woman?" She was fired before for a reason. A better argument is, "Fire them both." Good idea.

The best part of getting put on ignore is that i’m guaranteed to get the last word. 🙂

ddm’s problem is summed up here:

People very very much under-report sexual harassment because they fear retaliation. <- So? Are you trying to prove the sexist Wall Street bros right? That they should not hire women for fear of retaliation suits? That's a terrible point.

He neglects to consider the base rate for how much harassment is happening and avoids consideration of women as autonomous agents that can respond to incentives. Women are essentially harassment generating machines in this view, where proximity of employees of different genders can’t help but provoke harassment. If the possibility of a wrongful harassment suit is sufficient to provoke employees to take risk-reduction measures, then why don't male employees avoid other male employees for dinners, hotel rooms, and the rest? Companies themselves would be mandating permissible forms social behavior that don't risk litigation ruin: "1 lawsuit is all it takes", in DDM’s own words. Of course, the simpler answer lies in the boys’ club mentality at any firm where this sort of behavior is pitched as self-protection. Men view women as threats to the same degree that they see women as targets.

This is why DDM’s propaganda falls apart. If sexual harassment lawsuits come from a normalization of feminism, then we would have seen a spike in the number of reports. No such spike is observed in the federal data. If harassment lawsuits are easy opportunities for profit, men would also demonstrate an increased probability to file. Instead, filing a complaint / bringing a lawsuit is an arduous process endured mostly by women at risk to their own careers. If employees were really afraid of false accusations, they’d take measures to shield themselves against all accusations of impropriety. Instead, the exclusion is aimed at women.

It’s certainly a convenient worldview. If all social inequality is solved then there’s no reason to change your own behavior or challenge your friends'. But the world doesn’t look the way it would under DDM’s hypothesis.

Originally posted by Zamp
The best part of getting put on ignore is that i’m guaranteed to get the last word. 🙂

ddm’s problem is summed up here:

He neglects to consider the base rate for how much harassment is happening and avoids consideration of women as autonomous agents that can respond to incentives. Women are essentially harassment generating machines in this view, where proximity of employees of different genders can’t help but provoke harassment. If the possibility of a wrongful harassment suit is sufficient to provoke employees to take risk-reduction measures, then why don't male employees avoid other male employees for dinners, hotel rooms, and the rest? Companies themselves would be mandating permissible forms social behavior that don't risk litigation ruin: [b]"1 lawsuit is all it takes", in DDM’s own words. Of course, the simpler answer lies in the boys’ club mentality at any firm where this sort of behavior is pitched as self-protection. Men view women as threats to the same degree that they see women as targets.

This is why DDM’s propaganda falls apart. If sexual harassment lawsuits come from a normalization of feminism, then we would have seen a spike in the number of reports. No such spike is observed in the federal data. If harassment lawsuits are easy opportunities for profit, men would also demonstrate an increased probability to file. Instead, filing a complaint / bringing a lawsuit is an arduous process endured mostly by women at risk to their own careers. If employees were really afraid of false accusations, they’d take measures to shield themselves against all accusations of impropriety. Instead, the exclusion is aimed at women.

It’s certainly a convenient worldview. If all social inequality is solved then there’s no reason to change your own behavior or challenge your friends'. But the world doesn’t look the way it would under DDM’s hypothesis. [/B]

Good job dismantling all of OP's concern trolling. Hope you stick around here. 👆

Originally posted by Zamp
The best part of getting put on ignore is that i’m guaranteed to get the last word. 🙂

ddm’s problem is summed up here:

He neglects to consider the base rate for how much harassment is happening and avoids consideration of women as autonomous agents that can respond to incentives. Women are essentially harassment generating machines in this view, where proximity of employees of different genders can’t help but provoke harassment. If the possibility of a wrongful harassment suit is sufficient to provoke employees to take risk-reduction measures, then why don't male employees avoid other male employees for dinners, hotel rooms, and the rest? Companies themselves would be mandating permissible forms social behavior that don't risk litigation ruin: [b]"1 lawsuit is all it takes", in DDM’s own words. Of course, the simpler answer lies in the boys’ club mentality at any firm where this sort of behavior is pitched as self-protection. Men view women as threats to the same degree that they see women as targets.

This is why DDM’s propaganda falls apart. If sexual harassment lawsuits come from a normalization of feminism, then we would have seen a spike in the number of reports. No such spike is observed in the federal data. If harassment lawsuits are easy opportunities for profit, men would also demonstrate an increased probability to file. Instead, filing a complaint / bringing a lawsuit is an arduous process endured mostly by women at risk to their own careers. If employees were really afraid of false accusations, they’d take measures to shield themselves against all accusations of impropriety. Instead, the exclusion is aimed at women.

It’s certainly a convenient worldview. If all social inequality is solved then there’s no reason to change your own behavior or challenge your friends'. But the world doesn’t look the way it would under DDM’s hypothesis. [/B]

You're mistaken: I don't ever user ignore. I just don't engage with idiots.

If that's the only point you choose the focus on and ignore everything else arond that point including the additional stuff you skipped on that point, it's obvious you know there's nothing left for you to cover.

Pretend my points are all wrong, zamp is right about what it seems the only point he is making.

I concede all points, I was wrong about everything, you were right about everything.

Now what? What changed? What is different? Did you present anything help with this situation? Are women now on path to see employment parity with men in the workplace? Are men now less afraid of the liability of women in the workplace?

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
Good job dismantling all of OP's concern trolling. Hope you stick around here. 👆

"trolling", eh?

And regarding retaliation:

https://www.eeoc.gov//eeoc/statistics/enforcement/charges.cfm

Retaliation has been increasing very steadily, year over year. Not sure if Zamp is trolling, a genuine idiot, or just ignorant that, yes, the very point he made is explicitly wrong in the most direct way possible.

1997 - 18,198 - 22.6%
2017 - 41,097 - 48.8%

Hey, PVS, how about that "trolling" in the OP? I'm just a troll, right? It's not that you're a hypocritical SJW. I'm just a troll. Easier to dismiss my points if you blanket me as a troll.

Let's recap:

1. Cost of EEOC-like cases and sexual harassment is increasing exponentially despite per capita cases decreasing.

2. Retaliation reports increasing rapidly despite actual cases going down, per capita.

3. Costs of Sexual Harassment training keeps costing more but shows no effect. In fact, some studies show it has a negative effect.

4. Costs of business insurance keeps increasing due to tort issues such as sexual harassment (litigation).

5. Men owning small businesses in some sectors are avoiding hiring women to keep costs down because of the above. And are directly citing the above as reasons why.

6. Some women are struggling to break into some industries because of female-phobia.

I offered tools in the OP to help men stay out of trouble in the work place and to avoid misunderstood situations and false allegations with women in the workplace.

Originally posted by Zamp
The best part of getting put on ignore is that i’m guaranteed to get the last word. 🙂

ddm’s problem is summed up here:

He neglects to consider the base rate for how much harassment is happening and avoids consideration of women as autonomous agents that can respond to incentives. Women are essentially harassment generating machines in this view, where proximity of employees of different genders can’t help but provoke harassment. If the possibility of a wrongful harassment suit is sufficient to provoke employees to take risk-reduction measures, then why don't male employees avoid other male employees for dinners, hotel rooms, and the rest? Companies themselves would be mandating permissible forms social behavior that don't risk litigation ruin: [b]"1 lawsuit is all it takes", in DDM’s own words. Of course, the simpler answer lies in the boys’ club mentality at any firm where this sort of behavior is pitched as self-protection. Men view women as threats to the same degree that they see women as targets.

This is why DDM’s propaganda falls apart. If sexual harassment lawsuits come from a normalization of feminism, then we would have seen a spike in the number of reports. No such spike is observed in the federal data. If harassment lawsuits are easy opportunities for profit, men would also demonstrate an increased probability to file. Instead, filing a complaint / bringing a lawsuit is an arduous process endured mostly by women at risk to their own careers. If employees were really afraid of false accusations, they’d take measures to shield themselves against all accusations of impropriety. Instead, the exclusion is aimed at women.

It’s certainly a convenient worldview. If all social inequality is solved then there’s no reason to change your own behavior or challenge your friends'. But the world doesn’t look the way it would under DDM’s hypothesis. [/B]

Chauvinists see women as targets, and misogynists see women as threats; both are sexists.

What about women who see other women as threats

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/us/06cnd-astronaut.html

Originally posted by quanchi112
You poor thing. People thought the middle ages were bad but then came MeToo. I wish you the best in your terribly paranoid lifestyle.

You idiot! That’s all you got out of this? News flash, the whole metoo movement is a joke, since those same bitches were still working with the likes of Polanski after he drugged and sodomize a little girl.

Originally posted by shiv
What about women who see other women as threats

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/us/06cnd-astronaut.html

Reading that story, you have to wonder how many of those astronauts takes part of the mile high club while in space.

If I can avoid it, I prefer not to work with irrational people with damaging personalities, don’t put in the effort or who can be liabilities, whether male or female. Gender is irrelevant to me; it’s just basic math and stats. Unfortunately, statistics, and my own experience, lends to women most likely falling into that category, so I’d rather work with males all my life if possible. I do not prefer this in anyway, it’s actually super ****ing troublesome, but when you get to a point where you’re leading a team or running a business, you have to minimize risk.

Originally posted by shiv
What about women who see other women as threats

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/us/06cnd-astronaut.html

“A biography of Captain Nowak on the NASA Web site says that she is married with three children.”

😂

Originally posted by shiv
What about women who see other women as threats

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/06/us/06cnd-astronaut.html

I’m sorry but this article is amazing.

“In court this morning, Captain Nowak’s lawyer argued that she was an “excellent candidate for pre-trial release” because she had no criminal record, and that he saw no attempt to kidnap, but rather an “attempt to speak to some one in their vehicle.”

How the hell did her lawyer say that with a straight face?

Re: Women in the work place: don't hire them and avoid them

Women in the work place suck, no doubt about it.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Chauvinists see women as targets, and misogynists see women as threats; both are sexists.

And the worst yet are SJWs who see women as weak, pitiful, dumb, and in need of coddling. 🙁

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
If I can avoid it, I prefer not to work with irrational people with damaging personalities, don’t put in the effort or who can be liabilities, whether male or female.

This sentence right here, 1000x over. I've worked with a man who ties for the top for the most gossipy and hysterical coworker I've ever had.

Here’s one that happens too me, though I didnt really get in trouble in the end because I was in the right.

We ruck x amount of miles every Thursday, with the minimum weight being 35 pounds. So Supply wanted to ruck with us, we say sure.

Comes Thursday, we’re all line up, 35 was up to 45 pound, private showed up with a far smaller ruck then us, weighted it, it’s only 20 pound. I am like what the **** private? We put it out last night we’re to pack a 45 pound ruck, she gave me an attitude, I got pissed and I told her to start pushing. Not ten push up into it, she’s already tired.

Fast forward, we went for 5 miles. She could barely keep, we usually do five miles around 45 min, because of her, we finished it an 1 hr and 30 minutes. All she did was complain how tired she was, and why are we running. And I’ll indid was hell at her and tell her to ****ing shut up and keep rucking.

Fast forward at 0900 first call, I get called into 1SG office to explain why I was picking on her.

I like i said, didn’t really get in trouble, but a woman can destroy your career pretty quickly. Plus it’s a double standard, because if a guy were to complain, he would be the one being talk too because it’s what he signed up for.