Comic Book Questions & Discussion

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
YouTube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4

bro it's not 2011 anymore, nobody listens to lonely island

Venom vs SSS?

Are they about comparable?

Originally posted by MrMind
when i said vertigo cosmology i meant carey/gaiman cosmology, thought i didn't have to clarify things that hard for you to understand

But then your comment makes even less sense because they are self-contained stories. There's no appearance or even mention of superheroes in Lucifer, and while Sandman had a few cameos in the beginning before the series took off and one at the end during the funeral nothing of it was integral to the stories.

Now DC has implemented some of these characters into the DCU, and it's not a recent phenomena either. The first time was in Captain Atom #42, where Death of the Endless was revised to be an aspect of Death.

Gaiman was reportedly displeased with this take on his character, feeling that it diminished her importance in the grand scheme of things.

The issue is that you've not read these stories, so you don't care.

Originally posted by Astner
So you said something but meant something else? Well, that's on you.

But then your comment makes even less sense because they are self-contained stories. There's no appearance or even mention of superheroes in Lucifer, and while Sandman had a few cameos in the beginning before the series took off and one at the end during the funeral nothing of it was integral to the stories.

i spent minimal time on this forum so i don't take my time writing well organized paragraph since im always busy. if you don't know vertigo cosmology means gaiman/carey cosmology, you are a fuking idiot
lucifer v3 had appearance of nabu and martian god, sandman v1 had darkseid lucifer and justice league showing up to morpheus funeral, sandman overture mentioned mogo the planet, sandman endless night mentioned the origin of oa
carey lucifer is closely tied to sandman v1
the rest of your idiotic claim ill respond later

how did you get death of the endless is only an aspect of death i will never know

your willful ignorance is not the problem, problem is your arrogance

ill address rest of your bullshit later

Originally posted by Astner
So you said something but meant something else? Well, that's on you.

But then your comment makes even less sense because they are self-contained stories. There's no appearance or even mention of superheroes in Lucifer, and while Sandman had a few cameos in the beginning before the series took off and one at the end during the funeral nothing of it was integral to the stories.

Now DC has implemented some of these characters into the DCU, and it's not a recent phenomena either. The first time was in Captain Atom #42, where Death of the Endless was revised to be an aspect of Death.

And it's just as bad, if not worse, with the retcon of Lucifer and the Great Darkness. The writer don't know these characters, and so we end up with another mischaracterization ruining the character.

The issue is that you've not read these stories, so you don't care.

Exactly. 👆

Black Racer rightfully should have been, at best, an aspect of Endless Death.

Like Hela to Marvel's abstract.

black racer and nekron are all aspect of death of the endless
death of the endless is not an aspect of anything, death of the endless is the entire concept

Originally posted by MrMind
if you don't know vertigo cosmology means gaiman/carey cosmology, you are a fuking idiot

Originally posted by MrMind
lucifer v3 had appearance of nabu and martian god,

Originally posted by MrMind
sandman v1 had darkseid lucifer

Originally posted by MrMind
and justice league showing up to morpheus funeral, sandman overture mentioned mogo the planet, sandman endless night mentioned the origin of oa
carey lucifer is closely tied to sandman v1

Sandman is a story about stories, so yeah it's going to be chock-full of references, some of them even related to the IP😖 of DC. But that doesn't change the fact that the stories are disconnected from those of the DCU.

Originally posted by MrMind
how did you get death of the endless is only an aspect of death i will never know

Originally posted by MrMind
your willful ignorance is not the problem, problem is your arrogance

ill address rest of your bullshit later

Originally posted by MrMind
black racer and nekron are all aspect of death of the endless
death of the endless is not an aspect of anything, death of the endless is the entire concept

Right, but Ast just posted scans of attempting to retcon her as an aspect of "release". It tried to define her as just one piece of a larger concept, while Racer represents another piece.

I thought Astner was too busy to reread comics.

Originally posted by cdtm
Right, but Ast just posted scans of attempting to retcon her as an aspect of "release". It tried to define her as just one piece of a larger concept, while Racer represents another piece.

Originally posted by MrMind
bro it's not 2011 anymore, nobody listens to lonely island

We are on kmc.

It's still 2011 here.

Originally posted by Astner

Now DC has implemented some of these characters into the DCU, and it's not a recent phenomena either. The first time was in Captain Atom #42, where Death of the Endless was revised to be an aspect of Death.

And it's just as bad, if not worse, with the retcon of Lucifer and the Great Darkness. The writer don't know these characters, and so we end up with another mischaracterization ruining the character.

The issue is that you've not read these stories, so you don't care.

no you are the one who didn't read the stories, the death of endless scans from captain atom means nothing, from the interpretation it could easily been seen as black racer as a smaller aspect of the endless. after all we see death showing up in a different multiverse lucifer created, that's bigger scale than black racer will ever be

you are the one who didn't read lucifer v3. or anything post carey in general, lucifer being an aspect of geb or vice versa was implied in v3, the same freaking writer wrote the dark crisis swamp thing tie in where lucifer shown john pariah was merely using lucifer's power to do the deeds he done

Originally posted by Astner
Why did you even decide to call it that? Sandman and Lucifer are just two out of hundreds of titles that were published by Vertigo. Yeah...we're specifically talking about the original run by Michael Carey. Not the shitty runs that came after.
As a lighthearted cameo in the background of the funeral scene.
Cameos and name-references don't make canon.
Sandman is a story about stories, so yeah it's going to be chock-full of references, some of them even related to the IP😖 of DC. But that doesn't change the fact that the stories are disconnected from those of the DCU.
That was actually Gaiman. He made a point of this during an interview some years back. Now, I didn't care to look it up for you so I just settled for the quote from IGN.
Why are you getting upset? The story is shit. It's worse than Death Metal. You don't have to defend it.
I thought you were busy, why are you continuing to reply to the thread?

no, you don't get to pick and choose which run you wanna talk about, we go by most recent interpretation for canon. the quality of the books has no qualm in discussing cosmology.

you can't group any appearances you don't like as cameos and disregard it all together, it's not up to you. these are canon apperances. where did you see these stories disconnected from dcu? how closely tied together do you want it to be. any american comics written by different writers are bound to have contradictions,

this isn't manga where one writer write the whole story. is captain america's story disconnected from iron man? since you know they come from 2 different books?

writer's interview is inadmissible in kmc, you know this. different writers have different opinions and there are so many twitter feeds and interviews contradicting each other.
im getting upset because we been over this and you are unreasonable

Vertigo has Elaine Bellock as The Presence, while mainstream DC never did.

There's your lack of coherent cosmology.

how would you know elaine never became the supreme being for a while, just because it was never mentioned?

presence himself was rarely shown in dc

So yeah, GEB was obviously meant to be Lucifer, even if it wasn't directly stated. His reference to Bowie at the end was a dead giveaway.

And like qwerty mentioned: Watters(the guy who went out of his way to portray Lucifer and GEB as the same entity in his series) was one of the writers here... So his thoughts on the matter clearly stuck.

I'm happily surprised by the "reveal", though -- I figured DC would do something a LOT more idiotic with GEB, tbh.

Originally posted by MrMind
no you are the one who didn't read the stories, the death of endless scans from captain atom means nothing, from the interpretation it could easily been seen as black racer as a smaller aspect of the endless.

Even Gaiman rejected this take and you're sitting here trying to excuse it as an amphilogy. I'm sorry, but it's not open to interpretation. What's being said is unambigious.

Originally posted by MrMind
you are the one who didn't read lucifer v3.

Originally posted by MrMind
lucifer being an aspect of geb or vice versa was implied in v3, the same freaking writer wrote the dark crisis swamp thing tie in where lucifer shown john pariah was merely using lucifer's power to do the deeds he done

The idea of Lucifer not only being a peer to the Presence, but also predating him, contradicts the premise and the overarching story of Lucifer.

- Lucifer #75.

What was the purpose of getting the Letter of Passage, or escaping Yahweh's plan when Lucifer was never part of it? If we go by your ideas there's no point in even reading the story anymore because in the light of recent retons it makes no sense.

Originally posted by MrMind
writer's interview is inadmissible in kmc, you know this. different writers have different opinions and there are so many twitter feeds and interviews contradicting each other.

Originally posted by MrMind
im getting upset because we been over this and you are unreasonable

And the worst part is Williamson isn't doing anything interesting with Dark Crisis. It's boring. Darkseid and the Empty Hand were shoved to the side to make room for ****ing Deathstroke. Who supposedly was acting out of character because he shot Beast Boy (because Deathstroke doesn't do that!), and since then plot points have been dropped one after another. "Beast Boy isn't going to die, but he'll be traumatized," which despite being a terrible plot point fizzled out into nothing.

And this is the hill you're dying on? Really?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
There's also the whole issue that comic writers .....don't give two hoots about 'scaling' or 'power levels'. It's fiction, anything can happen if the writers and editors will it. Black Widow can take Wonder Man out, Domino can take Rulk out, Batman can fight an amped bloodlusted WW....

Not to say that the aforementioned behaviour doesn't exist, of course. Carv was famous for it. I like using respect threads as an aide memoire, but they're not often complete/accurate (see the recent Thanos portal scans).

This was about power levels, but still applies here. It's fiction, anything can happen.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's fiction, anything can happen.

Of course, not saying it's a good excuse.

But it still happens. Clinging to a specific interpretation to die on that hill shouldn't be done, imo, because tomorrow they can write that the GEB is really Batman's dad, and the Presence is Superman's dad, and they're the avatars of them.